p.7 #1 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Besides arbitrage, Colin F also confirms the problem in that thread. It seems that if the subject is far out-of-focus and closer to the camera than the current focus on the lens, then the camera may not initiate autofocus to correct the focus to the new location of the subject (and a third person is also mentioned as having the issue).
The D500 and D850 have the same AF system, so the performance should be similar (not necessarily identical, but close).
Yep, that is three out of many thousands that have the cameras. All three of these photographers are very experienced. They clearly establish their credibility through posted examples of their work. So I must believe that the issue is real in the very narrow use case they have described. I can also accept that the Nikons may be better performing in this limited use case.
When looking at some of the images posted, the small birds don't have as much contrast as the very busy branches surrounding them. Combined with the fact that the branches the birds are perching on are horizontal, while many of the surround branches are vertical may explain what is happening. The Sony focusing system is much more sensitive to vertical contrast than horizontal. Understanding this we may have to find settings and techniques to deal with it. I have tried to re-create the issue, but I don't see it when I am shooting. A very narrow use case to be sure.
Having shot with those two Nikon cameras a great deal, I stand by my personal assessment of the focus systems. Even very respectable reviewers like Thom Hogan have explicitly stated that the a7RIII is the equivalent of the D850. The a7RIII has features not available in the D850 in addition to the basic performance. The focusing system of the a9 is significantly superior that of the a7RIII in both performance and features. You do the math.
"Frustrating little guy to photograph....the Sony focus system is not ideal for this type of shooting...wish I had brought along my D500 which excels at quick acquisition with changing focus distances....the Sony system is dead in the water most of the time and won't even attempt to drive to a closer perch. When the kinglet never sits on one perch for more than a second, any hesitation is a recipe in frustration."
Could we move away from absolutes like "focusing are miles behind the a9" when the evidence from people who use both systems isn't so clear-cut?
I'd agree that "miles ahead" is not an accurate assessment of the differences between these systems, speaking as a multi-system shooter with multiple sony FE, Nikon F and Z, Leica and past experience with Fuji, Canon, etc. Those kind of statements make great headlines to drive clicks on youtube videos, but generally I've found that in real world shooting, it's more like shades of grey rather than black and white.
I have found the full automatic settings are a bit more reliable with the latest mk3 sony bodies, but once you start shooting them with movable spot, and in more challenging low or contrasty light, AF performance between the Z7 and A7R mk3 (I don't have the A9) is not far off, and the D850 is actually better in low light than both of those cameras in AF-S single point mode.
One should be able to achieve the results that the OP is striving for with any of these systems. My guess it's either a defect or setup related.
p.7 #4 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I have shot with the A9 as well. Didn’t find the blackout free EVF enough of a “game changer” to warrant the premium pricing. The differences I’ve found between it and the a7r mk3 are not “miles ahead”, and owning the D850 as well now I’m finding in certain situations it performs even better from an AF standpoint than the a7r mk3 and Z7.
In terms of the OP, I doubt changing the body will “fix” things as the shots described are likely achievable by any manner of cameras right now.
1bwana1 wrote:
As I said in a previous post, the a7III and the Zs are getting closer these days. But you need to shoot the a9 to see how good AF can be.
Jan 20, 2020 at 02:29 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.7 #5 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
EstherSP wrote:
I have shot with the A9 as well. Didn’t find the blackout free EVF enough of a “game changer” to warrant the premium pricing.
"premium pricing"? the a9 is a $3500 camera, in the same sports class as the $5500 1dxmk2 and the $5500 nikon d5.
a9 is a bargain price, for what it offers.
EstherSP wrote:
The differences I’ve found between it and the a7r mk3 are not “miles ahead”
i don't know how anyone could think that the blackout-free evf doesn't matter.
the a9 has a bigger buffer than any dslr on the market today, real electronic shutter, 20fps af-c vs. 10fps af-c for everything else, etc.
those things are indeed miles ahead of anything else on the market, be it the d850, d500, or any other sony body.
p.7 #6 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
OK good discussion here - today is MLK day so...
anyway, i just received an answer to a question I posed on the SONY Community forums:
Vincent.M (Moderator) (Sony PSA)
Hi, User15792213460874858435!
Thank you for considering the Sony Community!
Can you tell us more about your concern? You can also upload a video clip here so we can understand the issue clearly. To isolate the issue, you may perform a power reset:
Turn the camera off.
Remove the battery pack and let it sit for a full minute.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position
Press and hold the shutter button for 30 seconds.
Release the shutter button.
Turn the POWER switch to the OFF position.
Reinsert the battery pack.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position.
Regards,
Vincent
==================
Does anyone want to chime in over there at SONY?
p.7 #8 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I chimed in. Feels awkward since it says 'answer' :-)
rdcny wrote:
OK good discussion here - today is MLK day so...
anyway, i just received an answer to a question I posed on the SONY Community forums:
Vincent.M (Moderator) (Sony PSA)
Hi, User15792213460874858435!
Thank you for considering the Sony Community!
Can you tell us more about your concern? You can also upload a video clip here so we can understand the issue clearly. To isolate the issue, you may perform a power reset:
Turn the camera off.
Remove the battery pack and let it sit for a full minute.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position
Press and hold the shutter button for 30 seconds. Release the shutter button.
Turn the POWER switch to the OFF position.
Reinsert the battery pack.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position.
Regards,
Vincent
==================
Does anyone want to chime in over there at SONY?
p.7 #11 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Alex Phan wrote:
you shot perching bird?
I personally think it takes a lot of skill to make a compelling shot out of a bird that’s not in flight. There are some compelling BIF shots around too, including many I’ve seen on this forum, but so many BIF images are just snapshots that say more about the capability of a camera and lens than the the ability of a photographer to compose and capture something that’s engaging.
Jan 20, 2020 at 04:37 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.7 #12 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
EstherSP wrote:
I'm sure those features are completely valid and important for you.
Many people simply don't "need' a blackout free shutter, or IBiS, or 20 fps. A blackout free shutter wouldn't help with the OP's issue for example.
the point of contention was, and i quote: "...focusing are miles behind the a9"
which is a specs/performance discussion, not a poll about what people "need", that is o/t.
p.7 #13 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
osv2 wrote:
the point of contention was, and i quote: "...focusing are miles behind the a9"
which is a specs/performance discussion, not a poll about what people "need", that is o/t.
Not quite understanding your point, and not sure if you read my response in its entirety, as I had mentioned that having shot the A9 and all of the other cameras listed, and had found that "focusing are miles behind the A9" is not accurate. Nor would that difference had likely made much of a difference for the OP, who logically has gone down the path that there may be a defect in the camera or lens. We've had issues with various lenses front or back focusing before due to faulty firmware or hardware, so it seems like a plausible explanation in this case. I've seen multiple threads that offer up the response "get an A9" or "the A7R mk3 or mk4" isn't designed for that, which is somewhat of a leap if one hasn't already ruled out any of the myriad other reasons the image is soft.
p.7 #15 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
2xbass wrote:
I personally think it takes a lot of skill to make a compelling shot out of a bird that’s not in flight. There are some compelling BIF shots around too, including many I’ve seen on this forum, but so many BIF images are just snapshots that say more about the capability of a camera and lens than the the ability of a photographer to compose and capture something that’s engaging.
Different discussion. I do agree that many BIF photographers just want the bird and nothing else, as that's part of the challenge and the fun, but it's true that the better wildlife images tend to be those that show the animal in its habitat and provides context. Still, whatever the end result we strive for, something that's not tack sharp sucks whether the bird sits still or flies 100mph. And that's what this thread is about.
p.7 #16 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
rdcny wrote:
OK good discussion here - today is MLK day so...
anyway, i just received an answer to a question I posed on the SONY Community forums:
Vincent.M (Moderator) (Sony PSA)
Hi, User15792213460874858435!
Thank you for considering the Sony Community!
Can you tell us more about your concern? You can also upload a video clip here so we can understand the issue clearly. To isolate the issue, you may perform a power reset:
Turn the camera off.
Remove the battery pack and let it sit for a full minute.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position
Press and hold the shutter button for 30 seconds. Release the shutter button.
Turn the POWER switch to the OFF position.
Reinsert the battery pack.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position.
Regards,
Vincent
==================
Does anyone want to chime in over there at SONY?
I’m not sure what you expected when you made the original post at the Sony community forums unless an engineer happened by ( very unlikely) or someone had received a fix from Sony (even less likely). The only way this will be addressed is if someone has a personal connection through a Sony Ambassador or contact. I can’t remember who posted something about a video Mark Smith was making with regard to the combination and perhaps they should leverage that connection. Sadly all my contacts are with Canonand now that I am no longer shooting professionally am subject to the Walmart end of customer service.
p.7 #17 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
rdcny wrote:
OK good discussion here - today is MLK day so...
anyway, i just received an answer to a question I posed on the SONY Community forums:
Vincent.M (Moderator) (Sony PSA)
Hi, User15792213460874858435!
Thank you for considering the Sony Community!
Can you tell us more about your concern? You can also upload a video clip here so we can understand the issue clearly. To isolate the issue, you may perform a power reset:
Turn the camera off.
Remove the battery pack and let it sit for a full minute.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position
Press and hold the shutter button for 30 seconds. Release the shutter button.
Turn the POWER switch to the OFF position.
Reinsert the battery pack.
Turn the POWER switch to the ON position.
Regards,
Vincent
==================
Does anyone want to chime in over there at SONY?
All the years shooting Sony cameras, not heard of this power reset procedure before. Not sure it has anything at all to do with the problem submitted, but what the heck. Might as well give it a try !
Jan 20, 2020 at 06:00 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.7 #18 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
EstherSP wrote:
Not quite understanding your point, and not sure if you read my response in its entirety, as I had mentioned that having shot the A9 and all of the other cameras listed, and had found that "focusing are miles behind the A9" is not accurate. Nor would that difference had likely made much of a difference for the OP, who logically has gone down the path that there may be a defect in the camera or lens. We've had issues with various lenses front or back focusing before due to faulty firmware or hardware, so it seems like a plausible explanation in this case. I've seen multiple threads that offer up the response "get an A9" or "the A7R mk3 or mk4" isn't designed for that, which is somewhat of a leap if one hasn't already ruled out any of the myriad other reasons the image is soft....Show more →
it's not hard to understand, you specifically posted these words: "Many people simply don't "need' a blackout free shutter..."
read the thread title: "200-600 with A7R4", and the first post, do you see anything in there, asking people to tell us what they "need"? i sure don't... you are telling us what *you* want out of a camera, and that is not what this thread is about.
beyond that, "...focusing are miles behind the A9" is a sub-thread, also not relevant to what the o.p. posted about his a7r4 experience, again read the thread title.
watching you and ilkka_nissila try to bash an a9 that neither of you owns is rather humorous he just recently got into sony, with a 2nd-gen body i think, no a9 experience at all.
Jan 20, 2020 at 06:00 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.7 #19 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
armd wrote:
Happy MLK Day!
I’m not sure what you expected when you made the original post at the Sony community forums unless an engineer happened by ( very unlikely) or someone had received a fix from Sony (even less likely). The only way this will be addressed is if someone has a personal connection through a Sony Ambassador or contact.
he needs to respond back that he did the reboot.
it's the official sony forum, the mods there will escalate a help desk ticket up the sony support chain, for valid issues that are substantiated.
unfortunately it looks to sony like only one person is having an issue, because so far nobody else has added their feedback to the thread.
p.7 #20 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
rdcny wrote:
I wonder what sort of controlled test we could do to isolate (or narrow-down) the problem?
Well, my standard AFMA distances for longer zooms is to just test it out at the distance you usually shoot at. In other words, if you usually shoot at 500mm and X distance away from subject, test it out that way. Perhaps ask another local shooter to accompany you that has the same lens and camera combo. That way you could also swap lenses and bodies to test out whether it's a lens or body defect.
Unfortunately the Sony website's official forums in my experience have techs and customer service people routing canned responses, rather than actually real world field experience, so that's what I'd do unless you want to just send it in for inspection/service.
he just recently got into sony, with a 2nd-gen body i think, no a9 experience at all.