p.6 #1 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Alex Phan wrote:
way before the 200-600 hit the market, i already post my finding on the lens back in June 2019 ( i posted here too) and i did mention about the 95% and 5% ratio. Even with the A9, it still has issue and i said that i still prefer to use 100-400 with TC over 200-600.
Now, the R4, EVEN when pair up with bare 400GM, it still struggle to get a snap AF on BIF. So you combine 2 slow elements together.. What the expectation here?
Alex, do you find the R4 and 600GM does any better than the R4 and 400GM for "snap AF on BIF"?
Jan 17, 2020 at 07:58 AM
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p.6 #2 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Alex Phan wrote:
way before the 200-600 hit the market, i already post my finding on the lens back in June 2019 ( i posted here too) and i did mention about the 95% and 5% ratio. Even with the A9, it still has issue and i said that i still prefer to use 100-400 with TC over 200-600.
p.6 #3 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
arbitrage wrote:
I don't think you'd gain anything by sending them in. They will probably do some very controlled bench top test that shows it can produce a focused, sharp image (which it certainly can) and send it back to you. Total waste of time IMO.
p.6 #5 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
arbitrage wrote:
Alex, do you find the R4 and 600GM does any better than the R4 and 400GM for "snap AF on BIF"?
same. Very frustrating. HOWEVER, i'm not expecting the R4 to be fast since they are not DESIGNED for fast action. Speed and high megapixel count doesn't go well together.
p.6 #6 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Well if nikon can do it with the d850 in mp count and speed I think Sony can but doesn’t want to at the moment.
Alex Phan wrote:
same. Very frustrating. HOWEVER, i'm not expecting the R4 to be fast since they are not DESIGNED for fast action. Speed and high megapixel count doesn't go well together.
p.6 #8 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
At the time of its release d850 was one of the highest mp camera w the best in class af performance and speed. I believe Sony could do it w the r3 and r4 as well but that’s not Sony strategy.
1bwana1 wrote:
The D850 has just a little over 1/2 the mp of the R4, optical viewfinder, and still the frames per second, and focusing are miles behind the a9.
p.6 #9 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
-Sony's marketing description indicates the A7rIV is indeed designed for "Serious Speed".
-Many of us that own and use this camera are indeed capable of capturing high speed subjects to include BIF and sports. PLENTY of examples all over this forum.
-This thread is about a slight AF inconsistency seen with the G 200-600 in some circumstances ( and maybe some other lenses too). I find the AF inconsistency most pronounced with the G 200-600 when using the A7rIV in burst mode.
"Serious speed
Class-leading speed and high-resolution continuous shooting with accurate AF/AE
An advanced mechanical shutter unit and updated image processing algorithms allow continuous shooting at up to 10 fps* with accurate AF/AE tracking, even with this camera’s high-resolution 61.0 effective megapixel sensor. With this type of speed, you won’t miss the most photogenic moments and expressions of moving subjects. It is also possible to shoot continuously at up to 8 fps* in live view mode, with minimal viewfinder/monitor display lag for easy, stable framing, even with dynamic subject motion. When using the APS-C crop angle of view you have approximately 26.2 million pixels that can provide extra reach for bird photography, for example.
* Up to 10 fps in continuous “Hi+” mode, and up to 8 fps in continuous “Hi” mode. Maximum fps will depend on camera setting"
"Smart subject tracking Real-time Tracking NEW
Real-time Tracking* is a state-of-the-art feature that employs artificial intelligence to tenaciously track moving subjects when shooting stills or movies. Accurate focus is maintained automatically while the shutter button is half-pressed. The subject to be tracked can also be specified by touching it on the monitor when the Touch Tracking function is engaged. An advanced sub- ject recognition algorithm uses color, pattern (brightness), and subject distance (depth) data to process spatial information in real time. If the subject is a person, AI is used to detect and keep track of the subject’s eye and face in real time for extremely high tracking precision. The focus area will seamlessly change between face and eye according to the condition of the subject. * “Tracking” in the menu. This function does not track animal eyes."
"Sony’s AF leads the way
4D FOCUS – Wide, fast, reliable AF gets the shot NEW
The new image sensor in the α7R IV features 567 phase detection points in a high-density focal plane phase-detection AF system, covering approximately 99.7% of the image area vertically and 74.0% horizontally. High-density focal plane phase-detection works with 425 contrast AF points in a Fast Hybrid AF system that can handle a huge volume of data at high speed, snapping rapidly into focus with just about any subject and situation. Tracking performance has been improved too, despite the significant increase in resolution."
p.6 #10 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Thang wrote:
At the time of its release d850 was one of the highest mp camera w the best in class af performance and speed. I believe Sony could do it w the r3 and r4 as well but that’s not Sony strategy.
I think the R3 matches the D850 in these areas already, with a slight lead in AF features. The R4 already exceeds the D850 in resolution and AF.
They are all three behind the a9 except in resolution.
p.6 #11 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I'm wondering if anyone has been able to experimentally affect the 200-600 performance by altering specific settings, namely: 1) AF sensitivity, 2) eye AF tracking, 3) Crop mode (maybe theoretically decreasing data and processor load), 4) Continuous Drive speed - Hi+ v. H, v. M, etc. (what are the respective FPS?), 5) Aperture Drive (AF v. standard, etc.), 6) Priority set (AF, v. Balanced, etc.)
Moreover, it would be interesting to hear from people what is working. Currently, I am shooting AF sensitivity (1), Eye AF - On, No crop, drive speed H, Aperture Drive standard, Priority set balanced. The only recent change I made was that of the priority from AF to balanced and it has improved hit rate slightly.
p.6 #12 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
This thread explains why all - most of - my owl images from a few days ago are not tack sharp. I was wondering if somehow I had screwed up and couldn't figure out what I could have done wrong.
p.6 #13 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried to follow with single or expanded single tracking old school style, rather than let the cameras's tracking system do it? Does the issue have nothing to do with tracking, and its an initial acquiring AF issue, where it will front or back focus? I was thinking about buying that combo.
Hard to understand if engineering was aware of the situation, that it didn't trickle down to Pro support, as they would be the ones getting the complaints from their Pro shooters.
p.6 #14 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
IndyFab wrote:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried to follow with single or expanded single tracking old school style, rather than let the cameras's tracking system do it? Does the issue have nothing to do with tracking, and its an initial acquiring AF issue, where it will front or back focus? I was thinking about buying that combo.
Hard to understand if engineering was aware of the situation, that it didn't trickle down to Pro support, as they would be the ones getting the complaints from their Pro shooters.
Yes, I don't use the tracking mode it doesn't work well for BIF, rather I use the zone/wide and it will track the subject in the frame. Yes, I use the small spot for perched birds or slow moving animals; it works the best in those circumstances.
p.6 #15 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Thang wrote:
Well if nikon can do it with the d850 in mp count and speed I think Sony can but doesn’t want to at the moment.
The Nikon is a DSLR, in which the AF is independent of the main sensor and its pixel count, whereas in a mirrorless camera, the AF uses the data from the main image sensor and since a high-pixel-count sensor has typically slower read time than a lower-pixel-count sensor, the image sensor influences AF which it does not directly do in a DSLR (in normal viewfinder photography). So, Nikon can in principle put an arbitrarily high-resolution image sensor in a camera and it'll AF the same as a D5, if the camera otherwise is the same in terms of AF sensor, mirror speed and processing pathway. However, the D5 AF is optimized for speed and with the idea of 20MP resolution captures in mind, and may not be ideal for, e.g., 100MP.
The other side of the coin is that because the mirrorless camera uses the image sensor data for AF, it can produce higher accuracy if the subject is static.
p.6 #16 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
1bwana1 wrote:
The D850 has just a little over 1/2 the mp of the R4, optical viewfinder, and still the frames per second, and focusing are miles behind the a9.
"Frustrating little guy to photograph....the Sony focus system is not ideal for this type of shooting...wish I had brought along my D500 which excels at quick acquisition with changing focus distances....the Sony system is dead in the water most of the time and won't even attempt to drive to a closer perch. When the kinglet never sits on one perch for more than a second, any hesitation is a recipe in frustration."
Could we move away from absolutes like "focusing are miles behind the a9" when the evidence from people who use both systems isn't so clear-cut?
"Frustrating little guy to photograph....the Sony focus system is not ideal for this type of shooting...wish I had brought along my D500 which excels at quick acquisition with changing focus distances....the Sony system is dead in the water most of the time and won't even attempt to drive to a closer perch. When the kinglet never sits on one perch for more than a second, any hesitation is a recipe in frustration."
Could we move away from absolutes like "focusing are miles behind the a9" when the evidence from people who use both systems isn't so clear-cut?
Fair enough on the absolutes, but the quote above is way off base from experience with the A7R4 - no problems acquiring focus from a small fast moving bird going from branch to branch or reed to reed, even when obscured. This is with the 100-400 and 1.4x converter.
"Frustrating little guy to photograph....the Sony focus system is not ideal for this type of shooting...wish I had brought along my D500 which excels at quick acquisition with changing focus distances....the Sony system is dead in the water most of the time and won't even attempt to drive to a closer perch. When the kinglet never sits on one perch for more than a second, any hesitation is a recipe in frustration."
Could we move away from absolutes like "focusing are miles behind the a9" when the evidence from people who use both systems isn't so clear-cut?
This thread is trying to deal with an atypical problem that most are not experiencing. I have never experienced such an issue with my a9.
Having come from Nikon myself I do find that the Sony a9 focus system to be "miles ahead" of the D850 which was the camera being discussed in the post I replied to. Not the D500 in the post you referenced. That is just my opinion, but I feel free to post my opinion, and respect your right to post yours.
"Miles ahead" is not the same as "perfect" however.
p.6 #19 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
When people speak of "no problems", "miles ahead", or similar terms it would be helpful to describe the situations and more importantly disclose the detailed settings. I wish Sony would publish a "white paper" describing the hybrid AF system in detail. While ambassadors such as Mark Galer discuss the AF, the videos and other information fall a bit short (eg see: https://scene.sonyanz.com/articles-and-resources/real-time-tracking-autofocus-how-to-set-on-your-alpha-camera). Recently Soen updated his EXIF program to provide the AF data on the a7RIV - before it would only show the AF point utilized as a "bulls-eye". Now, it displays the pdaf af points as well.
As I've described elsewhere, frequently the recorded AF point is somewhere other than the point one recalls or intends. Can this be attributed to the AF system "holding" the AF distance which was determined at the recorded AF point, or is there some other explanation? Soen's revised program displays the active PDAF points which provides additional information, though little clarity to how the AF system works.
p.6 #20 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
This thread is trying to deal with an atypical problem that most are not experiencing. I have never experienced such an issue with my a9.
Besides arbitrage, Colin F also confirms the problem in that thread. It seems that if the subject is far out-of-focus and closer to the camera than the current focus on the lens, then the camera may not initiate autofocus to correct the focus to the new location of the subject (and a third person is also mentioned as having the issue).
1bwana1 wrote:
Having come from Nikon myself I do find that the Sony a9 focus system to be "miles ahead" of the D850 which was the camera being discussed in the post I replied to. Not the D500 in the post you referenced.
The D500 and D850 have the same AF system, so the performance should be similar (not necessarily identical, but close).
