p.1 #1 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
This morning I took the A7R4 and 200-600 to Barnegat Lighthouse jetty to photograph birds...ducks mostly loafing on the water. The plan had been to use the combo on an offshore pelagic birding trip - but the latter was cancelled due to the forecast of high winds.
Many (myself included) have been wondering about this combo for birds in flight; I have not had a chance to use the R4/200-600 together since I first acquired the lens when it hit the shelves in August (?) or so 2019. Instead I have been using the 400 F2.8 (with and w/o 1.4 Sony TC) and the 100-400 f5.6 (no TC ever). I wanted to see if 200-600 could match the performance of the 100-400.
In a word, the 200-600 is indeed a sharp lens; nice OOF areas...when you get a focussed image, it is a fine lens. For $2k it is a good value as a 600mm lens. The caveat is that it is no 100-400 (or 400 F2.8) in performance...meaning I could not count on the lens (with the A7R4) getting me a sharp shot of a duck on the water. Despite having the focus on the head (or body) of a duck, the area of focus could be in front (or behind) the bird in a rapid burst series. I don't know why this happens - but it happened consistently enough to give me pause - I would not use this combo if I needed 100% assurance I would get the shot especially if I could not shoot a burst of images (say 4-6) of the subject.
Add to this that at 600mm and wide open (f 6.3) Depth of Field is not great (several inches / less than a foot wide) if the subject comes close to filling the frame. So as a photographer, even though you are putting the focus points on a slow moving target (duck floating in the water), given the focus vagaries of the 200-600 on the A7R4, combined with shallow D of Field - it makes shooting a hit or miss affair..with not much one can do as a photographer except take a lot of photos. And if you need a critical moment...this may not be the combo to choose - I would not.
I found the focus accuracy and consistency of the A7R4 with the 100-400 as well as the 400 F2.8 to be much more reliable. I would chose either of those two lenses (not having used the 600 F4) for birds that are moving slowly, and certainly for birds in flight..I would not risk the A7R4 and 200-600 for birds in flight.
FM member Arbitrage has done a lot of shooting with the A9 and the 200-600. I have not tested that combo yet, but his (Arbitrage) comments on the A9/200-600 are well-worth reading.
Anyway, here are a few images from today. I won't post the OOF ones - even though those would be more instructive...In a nutshell, for $2k it is amazing to have a hand-holdable 600mm option with such quality. In the right situation, the lens shines...and combine it with a high megapixel body...you can make 25in wide prints...larger than life-size of the ducks I photographed today. One just has to be careful when to use the combo...and when not to use it!
p.1 #3 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
This mirrors my experience with the R4 and 200-600...it failed with slight back and forward focus shifts even for ducks floating in calm water and just slowly drifting sideways or towards me. I wish I had tried it more with my 100-400 as I only used the 1-4 for a brief time and it was on a non-moving Bittern. I did get decent results with the Bittern but also got decent results with the 2-6 on the Bittern.
I also struggled with BIF with the combo and that was compounded if I tried to add the 1.4TC. Because I find I can totally rely on my A9/200-600/1.4TC for even fast ducks and swallows in flight (combined with the A9's better ISO that would negate the stop of light loss versus R4/200-600/No TC), I returned my R4.
However, reading and watching numerous other R4 reports it seems that a trend is emerging...with the 400GM, 600GM and 100-400GM it produces....with the 200-600 at the long end it has issues. My current thinking on the R4 is that the lens selection is what is producing the varying reports of performance we keep seeing on the forum.
That said, cue the "my R4/200-600 works great" comments. Which if true, leads me to believe there are individual cameras with issues OR varying degrees of personal opinion on what constitutes a successfully sharp shot.
p.1 #4 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
arbitrage wrote:
This mirrors my experience with the R4 and 200-600...it failed with slight back and forward focus shifts even for ducks floating in calm water and just slowly drifting sideways or towards me. I wish I had tried it more with my 100-400 as I only used the 1-4 for a brief time and it was on a non-moving Bittern. I did get decent results with the Bittern but also got decent results with the 2-6 on the Bittern.
I also struggled with BIF with the combo and that was compounded if I tried to add the 1.4TC. Because I find I can totally rely on my A9/200-600/1.4TC for even fast ducks and swallows in flight (combined with the A9's better ISO that would negate the stop of light loss versus R4/200-600/No TC), I returned my R4.
However, reading and watching numerous other R4 reports it seems that a trend is emerging...with the 400GM, 600GM and 100-400GM it produces....with the 200-600 at the long end it has issues. My current thinking on the R4 is that the lens selection is what is producing the varying reports of performance we keep seeing on the forum.
That said, cue the "my R4/200-600 works great" comments. Which if true, leads me to believe there are individual cameras with issues OR varying degrees of personal opinion on what constitutes a successfully sharp shot....Show more →
Well that's interesting, back and front focusing with a mirrorless camera and lens combo... no great leap forward there...
p.1 #5 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
rdcny wrote:
"The caveat is that it is no 100-400 (or 400 F2.8) in performance...meaning I could not count on the lens (with the A7R4) getting me a sharp shot of a duck on the water. Despite having the focus on the head (or body) of a duck, the area of focus could be in front (or behind) the bird in a rapid burst series. I don't know why this happens - but it happened consistently enough to give me pause - I would not use this combo if I needed 100% assurance I would get the shot especially if I could not shoot a burst of images (say 4-6) of the subject."
I could say, NSS or "I told you so" but what would be the point? There were so many arrows slung at me when I raised this issue that any confirmation is a bit late. Given that the 7RIV and the 200-600 seemed like the ultimate birder combination providing reasonable size, tremendous range, hand holdability, etc. there were so many compelling reasons to want to like the pair. Unfortunately, you are encountering what I and many others have experienced, namely the AF just ain't that reliable or consistent. Yes, there are folks who say the 200-600 paired to an a9 series is a deadly combination, but it just doesn't perform up to snuff on the a7RIV. Is it the body, the lens, the pairing of the two? I think it is pointing to the later as the a7RIV seems to work well with the 100-400, 600, and in fact it even works well with my Canon 500 IS II with a 1.4x III TC and MC-11 in terms of accuracy and tracking though it doesn't rack the lens the entire distance (one has to get it close manually and then it locks on).
Let me state that I'm not expecting 100% in focus shots or even something close to the a9, however a 75+% seems reasonable and it isn't quite there. I'm still trying to figure out why and have been trying to use Wolfram Son's program which displays the exif and AF points. From what I've seen it has been disheartening as frequently the actual recorded AF point is different than the ones visualized in the EVF and many times it is far off the target.
Sony has asked me to return the camera and lens for inspection though quite frankly, I'm a bit leary. CPS, no problem. Sony repair? Can't say. And again it appears to be a pairing of the two which is problematic rather than one or the other. Overall, it's disappointing and hope that Sony figures it out.
p.1 #7 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I’ve seen the wolves come out around here when anyone criticizes the 200-600 and a7r4 pairing. And fwiw, I can confirm the a7r3 and the 200-600 doesn’t work as I would hope. Haven’t tried an a9. Wish I could crop an a9 with a quality effect.
armd wrote:
rdcny wrote:
"The caveat is that it is no 100-400 (or 400 F2.8) in performance...meaning I could not count on the lens (with the A7R4) getting me a sharp shot of a duck on the water. Despite having the focus on the head (or body) of a duck, the area of focus could be in front (or behind) the bird in a rapid burst series. I don't know why this happens - but it happened consistently enough to give me pause - I would not use this combo if I needed 100% assurance I would get the shot especially if I could not shoot a burst of images (say 4-6) of the subject."
I could say, NSS or "I told you so" but what would be the point? There were so many arrows slung at me when I raised this issue that any confirmation is a bit late. Given that the 7RIV and the 200-600 seemed like the ultimate birder combination providing reasonable size, tremendous range, hand holdability, etc. there were so many compelling reasons to want to like the pair. Unfortunately, you are encountering what I and many others have experienced, namely the AF just ain't that reliable or consistent. Yes, there are folks who say the 200-600 paired to an a9 series is a deadly combination, but it just doesn't perform up to snuff on the a7RIV. Is it the body, the lens, the pairing of the two? I think it is pointing to the later as the a7RIV seems to work well with the 100-400, 600, and in fact it even works well with my Canon 500 IS II with a 1.4x III TC and MC-11 in terms of accuracy and tracking though it doesn't rack the lens the entire distance (one has to get it close manually and then it locks on).
Sony has asked me to return the camera and lens for inspection though quite frankly, I'm a bit leary. CPS, no problem. Sony repair? Can't say. And again it appears to be a pairing of the two which is problematic rather than one or the other. Overall, it's disappointing and hope that Sony figures it out. ...Show more →
p.1 #8 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I have had the exact same experience with the A7R4 / 200-600. Lots of misses. The same A7R4 works great with the 600 F4 and other lenses. Additionally, the A9 + 200-600 works great with no issues at all. I agree, it seems unique to this body/lens combination and I hope Sony does something to address it via firmware.
p.1 #9 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
Steve (@1bwana1) talked to a Sony rep at a recent trade show and apparently Sony is aware of the issue. It is just a matter of time that they will introduce a new FW. Not sure whether it is for the camera or for the lens or maybe for both.
p.1 #10 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I recently shot with the A7R4 and an adapted Canon 600mm f4 mkII and had surprisingly good success.I was using the MC-11 with the latest firmware updates. No front or back focus issues... Here are a few shots with that combo from Pinckney Island Wildlife Preserve near Hilton Head Island...
p.1 #11 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I have experienced very similar A7R IV AF accuracy issues with the E 70-350 G, but not so with the 100-400 GM so far. Symptoms: like a DSLR lens having front- or back-focus, resulting in a significantly less sharp image than using MF or AF zoom. However, from 70mm to around 250mm the lens does focus correctly without any issues.
The E 70-350 G was sent in for repair but I guess it's both a mix of lens and A7R IV AF issues.
p.1 #14 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I bought two copies of the 200-600 and got rid of both because of the focus inconsistency issue. I thought it was my unfamiliarity with the Sony AF system, but I couldn't get consistent focus no matter what I tried. The 200-600 was the lens I was hoping would take me from Nikon to Sony, it failed. Any time I use my Nikon 200-500 I'm confident I can get a 90% hit rate in AF-C with just about anything but small and fast birds. I felt lucky to get 50% with the 200-600. If there's a firmware update to fix the focus issues I'll take another look at it.
p.1 #15 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
AGeoJO wrote:
Steve (@1bwana1) talked to a Sony rep at a recent trade show and apparently Sony is aware of the issue. It is just a matter of time that they will introduce a new FW. Not sure whether it is for the camera or for the lens or maybe for both.
Yep, saw Josh again yesterday. I thanked him for speaking with ARMD. He said that he wished he could have been of more help, but all he can say is that "Sony is aware, and is working on it".
So, for now it looks like this is not a great combo of lens and body.
p.1 #16 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
AvianScott wrote:
I bought two copies of the 200-600 and got rid of both because of the focus inconsistency issue. I thought it was my unfamiliarity with the Sony AF system, but I couldn't get consistent focus no matter what I tried. The 200-600 was the lens I was hoping would take me from Nikon to Sony, it failed. Any time I use my Nikon 200-500 I'm confident I can get a 90% hit rate in AF-C with just about anything but small and fast birds. I felt lucky to get 50% with the 200-600. If there's a firmware update to fix the focus issues I'll take another look at it....Show more →
Was that only with the A7RIV or with other Sony bodies?
p.1 #17 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
1bwana1 wrote:
Yep, saw Josh again yesterday. I thanked him for speaking with ARMD. He said that he wished he could have been of more help, but all he can say is that "Sony is aware, and is working on it".
So, for now it looks like this is not a great combo of lens and body.
There will be an R4, next day delivery, on its way to me if I hear Sony announce a FW for either the lens or body that specifically addresses that combination.
p.1 #18 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
arbitrage wrote:
Was that only with the A7RIV or with other Sony bodies?
It was largely with my a6400, but also with limited use on a friends A7R3. I thought initially it was the 200-600 but then I got my second copy and thought maybe it was my a6400 but after having the same issue on another body I gave up.
It also makes me wonder if some of the soft copy issues were focus issues and not a sharpness problem.
p.1 #19 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I am wondering is how much of the problems are with tracking focus and/or with bursting with subjects that are moving even if ever so slightly? Basically I’m wondering if the lens is not capable of keeping up with the refocusing and that a lot of the good results we see are either where there was not a lot of refocusing happening or it just “got lucky.”
I am also wondering, considering that the 200-600 is OK with the A9, whether images taken with that combo look sharp at 24 MP but would otherwise be revealed to be softer at 61 MP.
When you look at all four of Sony’s long lens options, the 200-600 is the lowest priced of all four Sony telephotos and yet it has the longest focal length (equal to the 600 GM) and the greatest zoom range. I understand they might be willing to go with lower margins on this particular lens but I still think something has to give.
p.1 #20 · Brief Comments on the 200-600 with A7R4 (Harlequin Duck)
I've debated myself regarding sharpness/resolution, but ultimately I've gotten some phonemically sharp shots with the riv and 200-600 so it's not that. And when it's a miss it's more substantial than the difference in resolution it seems. I've tested with my 200-600 as well as a friend's with identical results. The lens works great on my a9 and my a7iii, just not for moving subjects on the riv especially after a distance
