T-O Shooter wrote:
I see someone above referencing this thread to being DPR like. I've been here two years, and seldom post. None of what you say I've been posting. But the toxicity and a word I hate (tribalism) is just as much here as DPR, if not more so. Frankly, I'm disappointed in it, as this was touted as a better place than DPR.
Charles and SJMS think it's their forum to control what is said and what not is said. They are just two examples that seem to pop up more often in the few threads I've posted in - there's more like them. I'm sure FM would like some new members, the more the better, but look through this thread and see the aggressive behaviour from long time members. Not very endearing. ...Show more →
You know in just the last couple of days there was a thread started by a new member to FM. He was considering buying a Z7 but had concerns caused by the number of negative reviews he had encountered during his research. He wanted to discuss these issues with people who used the camera to find out if the issues were severe enough to not to buy the camera. Most of the issues have been dealt with, or at least substantially improved by firmware since the release. The two big issues that seem to remain are with AF-C which may be possible to fix with firmware, and the Single Card Slot which of course will need to wait for new hardware. We all know how hard it is to change perception, and Nikon is having to deal with this problem due to a weak launch.
He was very sincere and honest in his questions. Still, he was attacked and accused of being a troll by some members just because he brought up negatives about the Z7. In the end, he went ahead and purchased the Z7. This proved his credibility on the motivation behind his thread. One FM member had the decency to recognize his sincerity, and apologize for his attacks. Kudos to him, and compliments to the OP of that thread who kept his cool while being attacked.
I understand the fatigue that some here are feeling over the constant negative reviews and posts about the Z cameras. They often end up attacking people personally, or trying to limit the subject matter that is appropriate to post, instead of dealing with the issues raised in the posts. It is almost like some form of PTSD.
In my opinion no one should be attacked personally for posting here on FM. Everyone should feel free to post about any camera/photography related subject that interests them as long as they are polite.
I know this is a gear thread, but I would like to share a video on photography from a YouTube (oh no is it click bait?) I very much enjoy, and hope my fellow FM members will also (and is other monthly videos). The point of the post is, I am betting that any camera being currently sold could have taken any one of the images shown in this video. No mention of equipment, just images and the photographers who made them.
So this clickbait video is being used currently to trash the Z system over on DPR, in the SLR Forum. Not the first one either.
It is not only the Z cameras. Yet more Nikon Bashing. This is why many of us who have shot a Z6 or Z7 over the past 1+ year alongside our Nikon DSLRs have given up oin the toxic atmosphere of the Nikon SLR forum. The prominent Z-bashers are very well known, and on our Ignore lists.
Jared is actually a bit of an underrated reviewer in that he tends to do shoots in his reviews; he really shoots himself in the foot by leaning into his obnoxious persona.
The Z *system* is great, but feature wise the sony's and especially the a74iv and a9ii wax the Z bodies for the most part.
I really like the current Z lenses, and am expecting great things from a line of 1.2 primes, but Sony already has a plethora of options that are comparable to the Z glass available and have a ton of third party options available.
I am a fan of what nikon is doing, but still find it difficult to give them a straight up recommendation over sony for hybrid shooting or panasonic for video oriented people.
That said, take a look at the last gen sony reviews, the bodies really were lacking vs dslrs, abysmal battery life, worse build, bad menus and ergonomics, slow functionality, etc. I dont think nikon would have been better off prodcing half baked bodies for 7 years than mostly getting it right on their first try by studying sony and fuji for thst time.
chambeshi wrote:
So this clickbait video is being used currently to trash the Z system over on DPR, in the SLR Forum. Not the first one either.
It is not only the Z cameras. Yet more Nikon Bashing. This is why many of us who have shot a Z6 or Z7 over the past 1+ year alongside our Nikon DSLRs have given up oin the toxic atmosphere of the Nikon SLR forum. The prominent Z-bashers are very well known, and on our Ignore lists.
The first time I went to South Africa back in the 1970s, the people at customs confiscated a bunch of my books and magazines. No, not because of decency laws which were also quite strict at the time, but because of editorial content. Being from the U.S., and young at the time I was shocked that they could do this. It was my first encounter with true oppression. It would not be my last, but I am always amazed when people support such behaviour.
I would think that someone who experienced those times, in that place, would understand the wrongs of banning and censorship based on subject matter.
It is not trolling just because you don't agree or like it.
When someone makes a business decision that involves considerable expense, and shares his reasoning with his viewers this is not "click bait". Yes, the headline may be designed to attract viewers, but this is the norm for even the most conservative of media from the beginning of time.
I'm trying to figure out what penance I should be doing for the sin of purchasing a Z7 and the 24-70s f/4 last November, and (horrors!!) using it for the past year, and (double horrors!!!) spent the year enjoying it.
mapgraphs wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what penance I should be doing for the sin of purchasing a Z7 and the 24-70s f/4 last November, and (horrors!!) using it for the past year, and (double horrors!!!) spent the year enjoying it.
For all you fellow sinners, make a rosary with your unused SD cards and...
On the crucifix, make the sign of the cross and then pray the Apostles’ Creed.
On the next large bead, say the Our Father.
On the following three small beads, pray three Hail Marys.
On the chain, pray the Glory Be.
On the large bead, meditate on the first mystery and pray the Our Father.
Skip the centerpiece medallion, and on the ten beads after that, pray a Hail Mary on each bead; on the chain, pray a Glory Be.
Repeat Steps 5 and 6 four more times to finish the next four decades.
At the end of your Rosary, say the Hail Holy Queen.
And keep your powder dry. They're coming for your XQD cards next... ...Show more →
The guilt from being raised Catholic is strong in you my son. Darn nuns and their rulers.....
1bwana1 wrote:
The first time I went to South Africa back in the 1970s, the people at customs confiscated a bunch of my books and magazines. No, not because of decency laws which were also quite strict at the time, but because of editorial content. Being from the U.S., and young at the time I was shocked that they could do this. It was my first encounter with true oppression.
I would think that someone who experienced those times, in that place, would understand the wrongs of banning and censorship.
It is not trolling just because you don't agree or like it.
When someone makes a business decision that involves considerable expense, and shares his reasoning with his viewers this is not "click bait". Yes, the headline may be designed to attract viewers, but this is the norm for even the most conservative of media from the beginning of time. ...Show more →
There are common sense rules of protocol. It is up to the moderators to act accordingly. This includes the reliability and sincerity of posts. A recurring problem is misinformation posted with suspect motives.
Yes it is old news that the Z-AF is wanting for action, but real photographers who actually have bought and use these cameras know this very well. If a prospective buyer of a Z6 or Z7 is seeking reliable sources, it is NOT these Clickbait video channels. These sources are notorious for unreliability and worse. Here are 2 objective sources of reviews of the Z System by actual photographers:
It is up to the moderators to cross-reference the OP's DPR record in Nikon Z bashing. Incessant and boring, and so much noise. Above all the motives for posting are questionable, which likely explains why these trouble-making posters end up on Ignore-Lists - for the far more important reason that posted information cannot be trusted. Here is another example of why Ignore-List was needed months back: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63089145
patotts wrote:
His style/delivery isn't for everyone, but I think his assessment is right on the money.
Nikon what they are doing in terms of sensors, processing, UI design, etc, but they need to step up (fast) with regards to AF algos on mirrorless and deliver a 2nd generation mirrorless platform. The same goes for Canon.
Love what Nikon is doing. I own the Z6. Only thing I wish for is the Sony like eye focus/tracking. And it'll come. Took Sony a few generations.
fotografur wrote:
Love what Nikon is doing. I own the Z6. Only thing I wish for is the Sony like eye focus/tracking. And it'll come. Took Sony a few generations.
I only used the Z6 for a short while, it is a solid first gen product but not enough to make me go back to Nikon, especially with the lack of Z-native exotic glass, e.g. a 50/1.2 (I know it is on the roadmap), I'll revisit Nikon once they get more mature in the mirrorless camp.
charles.K wrote:
Seriously !!! Enough of the click bait. We are within a thread where the system of both lenses S and F mount with the Z6 and Z7 are performing superbly. If you are after BIF AF then move to a system that suits.
Most photographers use multiple platforms and use what suits them best for their style of shoots.
Guys move on from this rubbish as I thought we had grown past this now....
+2
No cameras are perfect, and spec picking can go only so far as thread topics. I have no issue with the opinion by that Photographer, but also sees very little relevance to my needs. I do not get frustrated with the S line up is not all the way high end for all lenses. AF is fine enough. So I am happy with Z6.
chambeshi wrote:
There are common sense rules of protocol. It is up to the moderators to act accordingly. This includes the reliability and sincerity of posts. A recurring problem is misinformation posted with suspect motives.
If a prospective buyer of a Z6 or Z7 is seeking reliable sources, it is NOT these Clickbait video channels. These sources are notorious for unreliability and worse. Here are 2 objective sources of reviews of the Z System by actual photographers:
The two websites you reference are two of my favorites. But if we are being honest they are both heavily Nikon favoring sites.
The principles of the Photography life website have a long history of being Nikon users, and Nikon advocacy.
Sanmirror is one of Thom Hogan's sites. His tag line is:
"Supporting the Nikon F-mount on the Internet since 1994..."
At the same time, the YouTube channel posted by the OP, that you point to as unreliable, and biased, has been a Nikon based photography channel since its inception. Its operator has been a Nikon shooter for decades. Yet, after a year long trial of the Nikon Z cameras he has dropped Nikon, for still shooting only, in favor of another bra,d. So, now in your view he is biased and unreliable.
Your definition of objective is unique for sure.
chambeshi wrote:
It is up to the moderators to cross-reference the OP's DPR record in Nikon Z bashing. Incessant and boring, and so much noise. Above all the motives for posting are questionable, which likely explains why these trouble-making posters end up on Ignore-Lists - for the far more important reason that posted information cannot be trusted. Here is another example of why Ignore-List was needed months back: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63089145
So, you are stating that the FM moderators should monitor other websites, and punish people here for what they say in other forums that offend you?
I guessing that the FM moderators, and most observers, find that to be as big stretch in logic as I do.
T-O Shooter wrote:
As he said, you can get great images (as you can with any current body) but it's the misses that's the issue.
The problem is, the "misses" don't affect most people anywhere near as much as he (or most others who want to lambast the Z6/7) think. It just isn't an issue for the 99+% who own the camera. If it does worry them that much, they obviously bought the wrong camera. The lambasters keep trying to harp on one or two points as if this makes the whole camera unusable when in fact it just isn't an issue at all to just about everyone who owns one. It seems as though unless a camera is top of the pile in *every* aspect it can't be taken seriously. So, in order to click bait the *gullible*, they have to be so controversial, so polarizing, that people have to look in order to have an informed opinion in any discussion brought up on the matter because someone with an agenda throws it up on a forum and then ask, "did you watch the video?", if you didn't then you can't argue with what he said or you have your "head in the sand". It's a perfect way to get yourself out there and get click bait. I just wonder why normal, and what I would have thought intelligent people (probably an agenda), fall for this stuff. Make outlandish claims that the gullible fall for and then let it run it's course. Make hyperbolic claims because first impressions are always believed more than reality or any level headed reply as people couldn't be bothered reading any rebuttal of the original claim. It's just so typical of the herd mentality which is so everywhere these days on the net. Not only that, but people want to think they have the best just because some internet screamer says it's so, whether you need it or not is irrelevant and whether it really is or not is also irrelevant, but you can say to your mates, I have the best because some internet nobody says so. Interestingly, the Z's seem to be gaining traction probably due to the fact that people have smartened up and found that just having the best tracking AF isn't as important as having a camera they love to use and gets them fantastic results for things they actually need/want the camera for.
What intrigues me TO, is that you feel the need to keep pushing this agenda as if somehow things will change in your mind. You have already decided that the Z's are definitely *not* for you so what is there in it for you other than to stir up rubbish. You know you are *never* going to buy a Z6/7 so why push this typical click bait. There is *nothing* served by this sort of thing unless you have some interest in it with Jared Polin or have an unfinished agenda. I mean, what can it be so annoying to you about the Zeds that you feel the need to keep harping on about both there and over on DPR. It shouldn't matter to you whether someone likes their Z6/7 better than the D750 or D850 just like I don't care if you like your D850 better than a Z. It also doesn't mean they can't use both either (like me) - you know, "right tool for the job". We get it, we know you don't like the Zeds, just be happy with your beloved D5 and D850 and move on. Others are supremely happy with their Z6/7 and life goes on. Also, being the best at everything doesn't mean the same as best for everyone.
brian_sp wrote:
why didn't he compare nikons 1st gen full frame ml to the equal from stony?
I think he didn't compare because it would be meaningless to someone picking a camera to buy today, including for his own use. The first generation Sony cameras are not what the Z Cameras are competing in the market with, either on a capability or price basis. The current Sony FF mirrorless cameras have options that include:
The best focus system
The highest frame rate
no blackout
dual card slots
highest resolution
on, and on, and on.....
That is the current competitive landscape.
But if it makes people feel better to hear it, "the Nikon Z Cameras are far superior in pretty much every respect to the Sony first, and even second, generation mirrorless cameras". In fact, the Nikons are equal in most things, ahead in some things, and behind in a few things. He made his decision on what he felt was best for him in the current market place.
Remember this was not a camera comparison review. It was a video that was made to explain why he made the choice he did in case that was interesting, or helpful to his viewers. When viewed in that light, it is a very balanced piece of work.
Lance B wrote:
The problem is, the "misses" don't affect most people anywhere near as much as he (or most others who want to lambast the Z6/7) think. It just isn't an issue for the 99+% who own the camera. If it does worry them that much, they obviously bought the wrong camera. The lambasters keep trying to harp on one or two points as if this makes the whole camera unusable when in fact it just isn't an issue at all to just about everyone who owns one. It seems as though unless a camera is top of the pile in *every* aspect it can't be used. So, in order to click bait the *gullible*, they have to be so controversial, so polarizing, that people have to look in order to have an informed opinion in any discussion brought up on the matter because someone with an agenda throws it up on a forum and then ask, "did you watch the video?", if you didn't then you can't argue with what he said or you have your "head in the sand". It's a perfect way to get yourself out there and get click bait. I just wonder why normal, and what I would have thought intelligent people (probably an agenda), fall for this stuff. Make outlandish claims that the gullible fall for and then let it run it's course. Make hyperbolic claims because first impressions are always believed more than reality or any level headed reply as people couldn't be bothered reading any rebuttal of the original claim. It's just so typical of the herd mentality which is so everywhere these days on the net. Not only that, but people want to think they have the best just because some internet screamer says it's so, whether you need it or not is irrelevant and whether it really is or not is also irrelevant, but you can say to your mates, I have the best because some internet nobody says so. Interestingly, the Z's seem to be gaining traction probably due to the fact that people have wisened up and found that just having the best tracking AF isn't as important as having a camera they love to use and gets them fantastic results for things they actually need/want the camera for.
What intrigues me TO, is that you feel the need to keep pushing this so-called "issue" and a point of view as if somehow things will change in your mind. You have already decided that the Z's are definitely *not* for you so what is there in it for you other than to stir up rubbish. You know you are *never* going to buy a Z6/7 so why push this typical click bait. There is *nothing* served by this sort of thing unless you have some interest in it with Jared Polin or have an unfinished agenda. I mean, what can it be so annoying to you about the Zeds that you feel the need to keep harping on about both there and over on DPR. It shouldn't matter to you whether someone likes their Z6/7 better than the D750 or D850 just like I don't care if you like your D850 better than a Z. It also doesn't mean they can't use both either (like me) - you know, "right tool for the job". We get it, we know you don't like the Zeds, just be happy with your beloved D5 and D850 and move on. Others are supremely happy with their Z6/7 and life goes on. Also, being the best at everything doesn't mean the same as best for everyone. ...Show more →
I gotta side with Lance on this. Taken on their own, the Z cameras are perfectly competent for the vast majority of photographic opportunities. After the latest firmware updates, and outside of a few use cases, missed shots are most likely to be the result of user skill level than camera deficiencies. The Z7 is not a mirrorless replacement for the D850 which is what I and I think you hoped for. I think the next generation likely will be.
Luckily, I have Z7 and A7r iv both, along with D850 and I have to say that Z7 gets more use than D850 and A7r iv combined by a lot. No need to compare Z7 to earlier Sony generations.
I agree that Sony A7r iv has better focus but it does not mean that Z7 can't AF.
If I drive in a major congested city, car A top speed is 250 km/hr and car B top speed is only 150 km/hr but is much more comfortable, I don't see any reason why I would need car A most of the time.
I still use A7r iv when I need it but 95% of the time, I prefer to use Z7.
Sony A7r iv with 100-400GM cannot be beat by Z system and I will need that but for portrait, landscape, street and every day use, Z7 is my preferred system, no question about it (when GFX 100 size and weight is an issue and GFX AF falls behind Z7 quite a bit ).
1bwana1 wrote:
I gotta side with Lance on this. Taken on their own, the Z cameras are perfectly competent for the vast majority of photographic opportunities. After the latest firmware updates, and outside of a few use cases, missed shots are most likely to be the result of user skill level than camera deficiencies. The Z7 is not a mirrorless replacement for the D850 which is what I and I think you hoped for. I think the next generation likely will be.
I probably hoped for it to be a D850 equivalent in every department, but deep down I knew it probably wouldn't be. The AF tracking is not up to the legendary D850, but the thing is, *it didn't matter one iota to me* and it looks like it doesn't matter to pretty much everyone else that owns a Zed either and that is my point - at least you see where I am coming from. If the next iteration comes out that matches the D850, then I'll be on it and I'll then sell off my D850 because I use my D850 for tracking BIF, but most people don't need their camera for that. However, I rarely do much BIF and it gets all the other bird and wildlife shots that I want, the Z7 is my forst use camera, the D850 is relegated to "only if I have to".
1bwana1 wrote:
I think he didn't compare because it would be meaningless to someone picking a camera to buy today, including for his own use. The first generation Sony cameras are not what the Z Cameras are competing in the market with, either on a capability or price basis. The current Sony FF mirrorless cameras have options that include:
The best focus system
The highest frame rate
no blackout
dual card slots
highest resolution
on, and on, and on.....
That is the current competitive landscape.
But if it makes people feel better to hear it, "the Nikon Z Cameras are far superior in pretty much every respect to the Sony first, and even second, generation mirrorless cameras". In fact, the Nikons are equal in most things, ahead in some things, and behind in a few things. He made his decision on what he felt was best for him in the current market place.
Remember this was not a camera comparison review. It was a video that was made to explain why he made the choice he did in case that was interesting, or helpful to his viewers. When viewed in that light, it is a very balanced piece of work.
suteetat wrote:
Luckily, I have Z7 and A7r iv both, along with D850 and I have to say that Z7 gets more use than D850 and A7r iv combined by a lot. No need to compare Z7 to earlier Sony generations.
I agree that Sony A7r iv has better focus but it does not mean that Z7 can't AF.
If I drive in a major congested city, car A top speed is 250 km/hr and car B top speed is only 150 km/hr but is much more comfortable, I don't see any reason why I would need car A most of the time.
I still use A7r iv when I need it but 95% of the time, I prefer to use Z7.
Sony A7r iv with 100-400GM cannot be beat by Z system and I will need that but for portrait, landscape, street and every day use, Z7 is my preferred system, no question about it (when GFX 100 size and weight is an issue and GFX AF falls behind Z7 quite a bit )....Show more →
Yep, from what I have seen on other threads, you, the Z7, and the 0.95 Noct, are making some images with wonderful rendering. It is a unique combination that is not available on any other platform right now. Being a MF lens Af has absolutely no impact. I really enjoy your posts with that setup, keep posting them.
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