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Archive 2019 · EOS 90D dynamic range

  
 
cpe1991
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p.8 #1 · EOS 90D dynamic range


ChrisMak wrote:
The 400DOII+1.4ex on the 90D does seem like a very nice combo. Only problem will be AF accuracy, as it really needs to be spot-on for cropping to be successful. For that reason I am also looking at the M6II, which should be more consistent and accurate in all situations except fast action. Also, it will have no issues with mirror slap, and has the electronic shutter for perched birds. I would like to get both for a few weeks and find out which of the two bodies does better with the 400DOII and 1.4ext.


I am an AFMA addict and most of my cropped shots are spot-on sharp and just as consistent as using liveview.



Sep 06, 2019 at 05:27 AM
amacal1
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p.8 #2 · EOS 90D dynamic range


lighthound wrote:
But then again, I'm a 6dII owner so nothing will ever compare to the bashing this sweet little POS camera received.


I'm embarrassed to admit that I was a victim of the 6DII bashing. How am I a "victim"? I paid $800 for a 6D while the 6DII was on firesale for around $1200 (+ tax, etc.). At the time, I thought it was relatively fair, the 6D was extremely capabale for what I wanted and the 6DII seemed like a better camera, but only 'just'. So, the $300-$400 difference seemed appropriate and the difference in specs didn't seem like anything to worry about.

The 6DII has never been that cheap again. Even refurbished it is over $1300, now. Meanwhile, used 6D value has tanked. It's still a capable camera, but the market has finally decided it's old and full of old tech.


At the time, the reviews only focused on how little its specs improved compared the 6D. Resolution was only bumped a little, DR didn't really improve (though effective DR may have slightly been bumped. AF was improved some. Shooting rate improved slightly. Etc. Etc.
What the reviews failed to capture is that bumping every single spec by some amount, made for a much more capable camera, overall. Plus, they added a boatload of minor, but useful improvements, like the flip out screen, touchscreen, etc. No one at the time pointed out how big of a deal having DPAF could be. It's a game changer, and that never really came across as such a big deal in the reviews that I read.


Someone joked that DR and resolution are soooo 2017. It's funny how true that is. Because the 6DII didn't increase resolution or DR that much, no one really cared about all of the other improvements it did have. Those improvements were numerous, and I wish I had realized that. Knowing what I know now, I would gladly pay $300-$400 to have all of those features. Unfortunately, the gap between used 6D and even used 6DII is probably well over $400.



Sep 06, 2019 at 09:33 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.8 #3 · EOS 90D dynamic range


EB-1 wrote:
It's often not possible to get as close as desirable on safari. I've used a 500/4 on the last ten safaris, often with a 1.4x (and sometimes with a 2x for smallish birds). The shorter accompanying lens is a 100-400 or 200-400. I'm curious how the 90D will do on the 500/4 II.


I agree with you. The critters we were photographing were big and selected by the safari leaders because we could get close. For this trip the 80D's reach increase over the 5D4 was all I needed. I did get some nice photos of hornbills which were somewhat smaller, but... If I redo a trip to that area I would like to find a more bird oriented group. Then the larger glass would be invaluable. How I'd get the beast there? I don't know, I could barely meet the local airline restrictions with my 100-400. Hopefully the 90D will realize a 1.3 gain in reach.



Sep 06, 2019 at 10:07 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #4 · EOS 90D dynamic range


Your story is a reminder to be very cautious about giving too much credence to that inveterate camera basher contingent. They come in several flavors.

1. The Brand X Is Always Awful version — they can't say a good thing about whatever brand it is that sets them off.

2. The Brand Y Is Always Best version — they can only gush about Brand Y, and in order to amplify the gushing they incessantly post about every other brand's flaws, no matter how trivial.

3. The New Cameras Are Getting Worse curmudgeons — No matter what new features come in the updated models, the previous model (or the one before, or the one before that, or some old brand no longer made) was always better.

There are other flavors, but you get the idea.

Generally speaking, new models are improvements over old models. Aside from rare missteps, the general trend is to add useful features and improve old ones when new models are introduced.

It is worth keeping a few things in mind. Most model-to-model upgrades are incremental rather than monumental. (There are occasional exceptions.) All cameras have pluses and minuses — no camera has ever been perfect and no camera ever will be. You don't need to upgrade every time a new model comes out. But when it is time to upgrade, it isn't a bad idea to plan to move to the most current model. (There is an alternate strategy for cost-conscious buyers: buying one model behind the curve.)

Dan

amacal1 wrote:
I'm embarrassed to admit that I was a victim of the 6DII bashing. How am I a "victim"? I paid $800 for a 6D while the 6DII was on firesale for around $1200 (+ tax, etc.). At the time, I thought it was relatively fair, the 6D was extremely capabale for what I wanted and the 6DII seemed like a better camera, but only 'just'. So, the $300-$400 difference seemed appropriate and the difference in specs didn't seem like anything to worry about.

The 6DII has never been that cheap again. Even refurbished it is over $1300, now. Meanwhile, used 6D
...Show more



Sep 06, 2019 at 10:10 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.8 #5 · EOS 90D dynamic range


amacal1 wrote:
What the reviews failed to capture is that bumping every single spec by some amount, made for a much more capable camera, overall. Plus, they added a boatload of minor, but useful improvements,


"Amacal's Law"

I agree with Dan that this is the usual upgrade between models. I've been most consistent in upgrading my 5D bodies and your rule applied, each has been modestly better than the previous with the sum of the improvements tipping the scale. I'm hoping the same will be true with the 90D. No one of the upgrades seems dramatic but in combination... We shall see.



Sep 06, 2019 at 10:21 AM
technic
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p.8 #6 · EOS 90D dynamic range


cpe1991 wrote:
The resolution of the 90D attached to a 100-400mm II at 400mm will be close enough to that of a Nikon 500mm PF on the 20 Mpx D500. And, the 400mm DO II at f/4 and with a 1.4xTC will pair beautifully with this new high res sensor. My GAS for the Nikon has been relieved.


The 100-400II on 80D has major problems with PDAF backfocus as soon as you work relatively close (less than 3-5 meters distance), a nasty "glow" for closeups at apertures up to about f/8 (especially in high contrast situations) and as icing on the cake it has significant focus shift (additional backfocus when stopping down, so even Liveview focusing is not foolproof). I highly doubt the 90D is going to correct any of these faults, in fact I'm pretty sure the problems will be even more obvious.

Also the 500PF is excellent wide open and for sure at closer distances the 100-400II cannot compete even when stopped down to f/8. For long distance shots maybe they are relatively close, but there still is some difference in aperture and focal length to the advantage of the 500PF. If there is plenty of light indeed the higher resolution of 90D compared to D500 will compensate for the shorter focal length, but for action (and possibly also for High ISO shots) the 500D will have a major advantage.



Sep 06, 2019 at 10:49 AM
Fujimoto
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p.8 #7 · EOS 90D dynamic range


Can't wait for image samples from the 90D and 400mm DO.


Sep 06, 2019 at 11:03 AM
EB-1
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p.8 #8 · EOS 90D dynamic range


I expect the 100-400 II will work well on the 90D under normal conditions when AF is calibrated appropriately. If the 80D is any indicator the IQ will suffer somewhat with a 1.4x.

EBH

EBH



Sep 06, 2019 at 11:16 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.8 #9 · EOS 90D dynamic range


EB-1 wrote:
If the 80D is any indicator the IQ will suffer somewhat with a 1.4x.


Care to elaborate? Lens or camera? I just find adding the 1.4x makes the combination harder to use with either 80D or 5D4. Its probably my limitation with the added length and bulk.



Sep 06, 2019 at 11:52 AM
technic
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p.8 #10 · EOS 90D dynamic range


EB-1 wrote:
I expect the 100-400 II will work well on the 90D under normal conditions when AF is calibrated appropriately. If the 80D is any indicator the IQ will suffer somewhat with a 1.4x.

EBH

EBH


How do you calibrate AF properly when the required adjustment varies very strongly (from 0 to about -20 for closeups) with subject distance? There is no way to do that with a Canon lens.



Sep 06, 2019 at 03:11 PM
cpe1991
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p.8 #11 · EOS 90D dynamic range


technic wrote:
The 100-400II on 80D has major problems with PDAF backfocus as soon as you work relatively close (less than 3-5 meters distance), a nasty "glow" for closeups at apertures up to about f/8 (especially in high contrast situations) and as icing on the cake it has significant focus shift (additional backfocus when stopping down, so even Liveview focusing is not foolproof). I highly doubt the 90D is going to correct any of these faults, in fact I'm pretty sure the problems will be even more obvious.

Also the 500PF is excellent wide open and for sure at closer distances the
...Show more

You have been complaining about these features of the 100-400mm II for a long time now, and I know you are serious and I believe you. But, I have two 100-400mm IIs, one on my 5DSR and another one on the 5DIV (shared with my wife) and we don't have these problems. I also have a very good copy of the 400mm DO II and at 400mm the 100-400mm IIs are almost indistinguishable in resolution from it. Put on a 1.4xTC, and the 400mm prime leaps ahead. Are you sure it is not just your copy of the 100-400mm II and have you tried other copies as well?



Sep 06, 2019 at 03:21 PM
EB-1
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p.8 #12 · EOS 90D dynamic range


cpe1991 wrote:
The resolution of the 90D attached to a 100-400mm II at 400mm will be close enough to that of a Nikon 500mm PF on the 20 Mpx D500. And, the 400mm DO II at f/4 and with a 1.4xTC will pair beautifully with this new high res sensor. My GAS for the Nikon has been relieved.

technic wrote:
The 100-400II on 80D has major problems with PDAF backfocus as soon as you work relatively close (less than 3-5 meters distance), a nasty "glow" for closeups at apertures up to about f/8 (especially in high contrast situations) and as icing on the cake it has significant focus shift (additional backfocus when stopping down, so even Liveview focusing is not foolproof). I highly doubt the 90D is going to correct any of these faults, in fact I'm pretty sure the problems will be even more obvious.

Also the 500PF is excellent wide open and for sure at closer distances the
...Show more
cpe1991 wrote:
You have been complaining about these features of the 100-400mm II for a long time now, and I know you are serious and I believe you. But, I have two 100-400mm IIs, one on my 5DSR and another one on the 5DIV (shared with my wife) and we don't have these problems. I also have a very good copy of the 400mm DO II and at 400mm the 100-400mm IIs are almost indistinguishable in resolution from it. Put on a 1.4xTC, and the 400mm prime leaps ahead. Are you sure it is not just your copy of the 100-400mm II
...Show more

I also have two of the 100-400 II and they are fine lenses with the exception of the four stupidly tiny screws that hold the lens foot attachment plate onto the lens collar.

I see some focus shift, but there is a good compromise aperture and distance for calibration that covers how I use it. I don't see the flare mentioned. However, I don't use it in the semi-macro range wide open.

EBH



Sep 06, 2019 at 06:30 PM
EB-1
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p.8 #13 · EOS 90D dynamic range


EB-1 wrote:
If the 80D is any indicator the IQ will suffer somewhat with a 1.4x.

Jeff Nolten wrote:
Care to elaborate? Lens or camera? I just find adding the 1.4x makes the combination harder to use with either 80D or 5D4. Its probably my limitation with the added length and bulk.


The imaging quality (sharpness and/or contrast) of the 100-400 II is not as good as without the 1.4x TC. The 1.4x reduces AF performance with the 80D and the 5D IV, though the latter is not bad except for the outer sensors. I'm expecting the 90D on a 500/4+1.4x will be usable and I hope AF will be good. At some point extra magnification is limited by air quality.

EBH



Sep 06, 2019 at 06:36 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.8 #14 · EOS 90D dynamic range


Thanks. I thought that might be what you were referring to and I agree. Both the 80D and 90D have the same -3 EV focus sensitivity so I'm not sure AF will be much better with the 1.4x unless the faster Digic 8 or updated algorithms help.


Sep 06, 2019 at 07:34 PM
cpe1991
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p.8 #15 · EOS 90D dynamic range


My intention is to use the bare 100-400mm II on the 90D as it will give me the effective reach of 666mm on my 5DIV. If I need more, I'll use the 400mm DO II + 1.4xTC. The efficacy of the 1.4xTC does depend on the copy, despite some belief there isn't copy variation. I have had 3 of the 1.4xTC IIIs and one of them pairs significantly better than the others on the 100-400mm II, and one was soft at the edges. The best one does give very good results with both the 5DSR and 5DIV, but the reach of the bare lens on the 90D will be good enough for me and allow higher shutter speeds or lower iso at f/5.6 rather than f/8.


Sep 07, 2019 at 03:09 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.8 #16 · EOS 90D dynamic range


What that will gain you is:

- more pixels on target
- maybe about the same ISO noise despite being a 1 stop lower than the 5D4
- 3fps more than the 5D4

However, you are not getting optical reach, just digital reach. Optical reach is almost always superior in IQ than to use higher resolutions and zooming in a bit.

So there is some give/take with the prescription you are going with.



Sep 07, 2019 at 06:20 AM
technic
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p.8 #17 · EOS 90D dynamic range


cpe1991 wrote:
You have been complaining about these features of the 100-400mm II for a long time now, and I know you are serious and I believe you. But, I have two 100-400mm IIs, one on my 5DSR and another one on the 5DIV (shared with my wife) and we don't have these problems. I also have a very good copy of the 400mm DO II and at 400mm the 100-400mm IIs are almost indistinguishable in resolution from it. Put on a 1.4xTC, and the 400mm prime leaps ahead. Are you sure it is not just your copy of the 100-400mm II
...Show more

Just to be sure, my 100-400II is in spec according to Canon service and perfectly fine for long distance shots.

By now I have verified the exact same problems on two other 80D / 100-400II combo's so I am absolutely sure my gear is representative, and quite a few others have mentioned on the forum they are noticing more-or-less the same problems. As I have mentioned before, the huge PDAF backfocus with 100-400II for closeups can depend on the AF system and is reported often by users with 80D, 70D and some Rebels. Maybe FF cameras don't have this problem to the same extent (it is probably partly related to the spherical aberration of the 100-400II for closeups, which may affect FF PDAF sensors differently). The "glow" problem will also be less visible on most FF bodies due to larger pixels, but I would expect it to be similar on the 5DSR. I have spotted the same glow problem in some images from people who are sure their 100-400II is perfect

The focus shift is a relatively minor issue that I would not complain about if the other problems were not present; it is only a problem because it makes the only theoretical solution for the PDAF backfocus - using Liveview focus - unreliable.



Sep 07, 2019 at 06:53 AM
technic
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p.8 #18 · EOS 90D dynamic range


EB-1 wrote:
The imaging quality (sharpness and/or contrast) of the 100-400 II is not as good as without the 1.4x TC. The 1.4x reduces AF performance with the 80D and the 5D IV, though the latter is not bad except for the outer sensors. I'm expecting the 90D on a 500/4+1.4x will be usable and I hope AF will be good. At some point extra magnification is limited by air quality.

EBH


Agree, the 1.4TCIII on 100-400II has excellent IQ in the image center (great for moon shots, even an additional TC extracts some more detail) but especially for the borders it needs stopping down at least one stop.

The main problem of the TC is the AF which is pathetically slow on 80D if you ask me; it only works for VERY slow BIFs, last time I tried it could not even reliably track a heron taking off in pretty good light. So in practice I only use it for static subjects. I don't see any reason why the 90D would be better, despite the new pixel array.



Sep 07, 2019 at 06:56 AM
ChrisMak
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p.8 #19 · EOS 90D dynamic range




TeamSpeed wrote:
What that will gain you is:

- more pixels on target
- maybe about the same ISO noise despite being a 1 stop lower than the 5D4
- 3fps more than the 5D4

However, you are not getting optical reach, just digital reach. Optical reach is almost always superior in IQ than to use higher resolutions and zooming in a bit.


Which is why m4/3 will never conquer the world of nature photographers or just birders. The promise of less than half the weight and size, but the same reach (EM1mkII + 300mm f4 vs. 5DIV and 600mm f4) is a paper promise without much practical use.



Sep 07, 2019 at 07:37 AM
filosofem
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p.8 #20 · EOS 90D dynamic range


Sorry but can you please elaborate a little bit more?
I am deliberating myself between using the Sigma 150-600 on my existing RP or buying a 80D/90D for extra reach and better focus for birding.

Thanks much!
TeamSpeed wrote:
What that will gain you is:

- more pixels on target
- maybe about the same ISO noise despite being a 1 stop lower than the 5D4
- 3fps more than the 5D4

However, you are not getting optical reach, just digital reach. Optical reach is almost always superior in IQ than to use higher resolutions and zooming in a bit.

So there is some give/take with the prescription you are going with.




Sep 07, 2019 at 07:53 AM
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