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Archive 2019 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images

  
 
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #1 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


I'm opening a separate thread regarding my 600 III woes. For a $13,000 lens that seems to possibly have widespread stabilization issues, I felt that it warranted its own thread after more testing seems to suggest it's not limited to just one camera/lens combo. I had opened a separate thread about this previously as I felt it was limited to just the 5DIV. Thread is here: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1595119

Briefly, it became fairly clear that there was significant vertical blurring when the 5DIV and 600 III were used at relatively slow shutter speeds, mostly at 1/200 or less. There was a "ghosting" of images that appeared from this. After a few trips through Canon--1 with the 5DIV alone to be evaluated and the next two with the pair going in (the first without being signed up for CPS which took weeks)--nothing had improved even after "electrical adjustments" were made to the patient 600III and the mirror box was placed on the inside 5DIV. My case was escalated to Canon USA Customer relations. Their customer relations department reviewed a few images and felt that my images were just displaying motion blur at 1/160, but they absolutely were not showing motion blur. More images were sent in showing sharp photos taken with Electronic Front Curtain Shutter (EFCS) down to 1/20 and handheld, so they agreed to bring in my camera and lens and have their engineering department evaluate the combo. I got a call today stating that Canon USA and Canon Japan were actually aware of this issue and they were able to replicate it and they did not need my combo to look at but they would update me after Canon Japan completed their evaluation.

Interestingly I had an extensive birding trip two weeks ago. I used my 1DX2 and 600 III predominantly. I shot in poor light several times with many shots in shutter speed range of 1/80 to 1/200. I noticed that there were many photos displaying similar blur, but I was not ready to say that t was the exact same issue as I was shooting birds that might have been moving.

This evening I did testing of my 1DX2 and 5DSR after extensively evaluating my 5DIV images and 5DIV images others provided. I found that THESE TWO CAMERAS ALSO DISPLAY BLURRING IN THE AXIS OF SHUTTER MOVEMENT as well, however the severity of the blurring is less. If the 5DIV and 600III combo shifts by 20 pixels, these seem to be shifting about 10 pixels. I'm not sure that this makes sense in light of relative pixel density. The problems are worse when handheld than when tripod mounted but are present in both.

I think I missed problems with the 1DX2 and 5DSR as the photos, when viewed zoomed out, are generally okay and when viewed somewhat zoomed in, just look slightly unsharp. When viewing 1:1, it is clear that they are blurred and when viewed 2:1, the ghosting is clear. The rate of photos affected seems roughly similar to the 5DIV, but perhaps slightly less.

I'd be very interested to see if anyone could provide a series of tack sharp handheld images with the 600 IS III in the 1/60-1/160 range. I do get occasional tack sharp photos with these combos and can provide single images, but by far the majority of photos have been affected.

For what it's worth, this has definitely been reproducible by multiple people with the 5DIV/600III combo and another individual commented that the 7D2 also showed similar issues.



Aug 15, 2019 at 08:39 PM
RobAmy
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p.1 #2 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


I would be curious if you tried it on an adapted camera like a Sony A9 to see if it was still any issues with the lens or even Canon's mirrorless. I would assume if you are getting shutter movement than you would have no issues at all with a mirrorless system. At least Canon is aware of the issue now and hopefully they will come up with a fix. Frustrating for you for sure.


Aug 16, 2019 at 03:39 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #3 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Mirrorless cameras, too, have shutter movement unless electronic shutter or electronic front curtain is used.

The problem described in this and the other (linked) thread seems very familiar to Nikon PF 300mm and PF 500mm users (variable degree of blur depending on body and lens sample, prominent at certain shutter speeds, but not as severe in all combinations of body sample and lens sample; some combinations display a severe double image).

The solution to this problem is for the camera manufacturer to implement EFCS in such a way that it's not limited to live view photography. Nikon did this so far in one DSLR (D850 in Q/Qc modes) and of course, in their Z6 and Z7 mirrorless cameras. I would assume that Canon could provide a similar fix.



Aug 16, 2019 at 04:49 AM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #4 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


With these other systems, did the problem
Occur with and without IS on? With the 600 III, it appears the problem is *only* happening with IS on. Sharp photos can be obtained on a tripod without IS, but photos with IS are almost all blurry.



Aug 16, 2019 at 05:10 AM
JohanEickmeyer
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p.1 #5 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Real men just mount a cinder block inertial damper to the lens, but you would think Canon would ship their expensive lenses with the cinder block pre-installed. $500 for an OEM cinder block is ridiculous, even if it is 100% compatible.


Aug 16, 2019 at 05:50 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #6 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


On the Nikon side, if the user turns VR OFF, the problem of double image or pronounced blur on the 300 PF disappears, according to most reports. It seems that the shutter front curtain initiates the vibration and if VR is OFF, the VR group is held in fixed position by the mechanism (so it cannot move), so while there may be blur it is the kind that you would expect at these speeds without VR. But if VR is ON, somehow the VR group seems to resonate with the shutter vibration and lead to an unusual amount of blur, and for some users, a double image (basically a completely ruined shot).

I generally try to use fast shutter speeds with the 300 PF (1/500s to 1/1250s) and don't see much of a problem at those speeds. But occasionally I need to shoot at a slower speed such as 1/160s to 1/320s and I would see surprising amount of blur, not related to subject movement, and if I notice it in time, I can take some more shots (subject permitting) with VR OFF, and they typically come out sharper. So I am aware of the problem and it does show to some extend on my gear, although my lens and camera bodies have not shown the double image or severe blur that some users report. At really slow speeds (1/50s), VR is surprisingly effective, and there is no problem there, it's the intermediate speeds that seem to be susceptible to shutter shock when VR is ON. Today instead of turning VR OFF, I turn my D850 to Qc (quiet continuous, which allows EFCS to work in viewfinder photography) and the problem disappears.

I subsequently purchased the 500 PF, which is another really lightweight long lens, and I do notice markedly improved sharpness when using Qc with EFCS, especially at shutter speeds that are a bit on the slow side for 500mm (e.g., 1/200s). The Qc mode is suited to static or slowly moving subjects, as there is a slight delay between the mirror rising and the exposure beginning (the camera moves the mirror up more slowly and waits for a split second before starting the electronic front curtain, these are to minimize blur and sound noise), so the timing of action may be slightly "off" compared to using the regular mechanical shutter based modes where the mirror moves at high speed. So for action I may switch to CH (continous high) and use a fast shutter speed, and when the subject is static or moving slowly, I go to Qc and use a slower shutter speed to be able to use a lower ISO and get higher quality images of those situations. This has worked well for me, although it would be nicer if the problem didn't exist.

Nikon issued several firmware updates (one on the lens, one for D750, maybe others) but none of them seemed to solve the problem for every user. Dpreview have covered this issue in several articles. Nikon's mirrorless camera bodies (Z7 and Z6) also allow EFCS in viewfinder photography and I have not seen reports of PF lens vibration problems using those cameras.

I would try to communicate to Canon that Nikon 300 PF and some 500 PF users have reported similar problems of unusual amount of blur with VR ON at certain shutter speeds (1/80s to 1/320s) and that one solution that has been found to work well is to use the D850's EFCS in Quiet or Quiet continous modes in viewfinder photography. Canon might be able to implement something similar.

In the meanwhile, I guess following the suggestion of using a tripod and turning IS OFF should allow shots to be made at slow speeds with good results, but of course this results in a different shooting workflow. I know that a lot of people now are used to using their supertelephoto lenses hand held, and for some subjects this may be a practical requirement to get the shots, e.g. bird flying past directly above the photographer. Also moving the tripod around can spook the animals. I tend to use the 500 PF hand held when photographing deer but for birds I typically use a tripod (because of the long wait for something to happen). I can get shots hand held but get tired holding the lens pointed at the bird for a long time, so the tripod really makes the process easier for some subjects (e.g. red-throated divers). Of course, I need to accommodate for the reduced freedoms of movement that the tripod imposes, but I've been satisfied with the results (currently using a Gitzo fluid head which is intended for birdwatching). For other subjects, the ability to move about and find the right subject and angle for a nice background hand held is invaluable (e.g., small birds in trees).

I have read that Canon are rumored to be working on (perhaps close to launching?) a full frame mirrorless camera body with very high resolution to compete with the Sony 61MP model which has been announced. This might present a possible solution. I know it is very annoying after spending money on very expensive lenses to have to spend more money to solve problems, but I guess it is the price to pay for moving to lighter weight gear.

I have seen amazing results from both the 400/2.8 III and 600/4 III so I would definitely not abandon the lenses. The solution is probably in the form of a camera body that allows the vibration to be avoided.



Aug 16, 2019 at 06:34 AM
Pius Sullivan
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p.1 #7 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


oops...

Edited on Aug 20, 2019 at 01:43 PM · View previous versions



Aug 19, 2019 at 07:09 AM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #8 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Pius,

Can you show a 1:1 crop? Also see if you can get a series of shots that are super sharp. With my 1DX2 I can get occasional shots that are perfectly acceptable but the majority seem to show some blurring/ghosting with a displacement of at least a few pixels, enough to make the images look *okay* but not really as sharp as they should be.

In a burst I took yesterday with 1DX2/600III combo, the first shot was tack sharp and the rest were not.

Thanks!
Ryan

Pius Sullivan wrote:
Great Grey close up
Handheld




Aug 19, 2019 at 07:58 AM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #9 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Also 1/125 to 1/160 seems to be the worst for the blurring. Slower shutter speeds seem to be a bit better. Blowing the photo up on my iPhone, your pic doesn’t seem to display any blur.

Pius Sullivan wrote:
Great Grey close up
Handheld




Aug 19, 2019 at 08:00 AM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #10 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Pius... your image is listed at 400mm. Is the EXIF incorrect or was this supposed to go in the 400 thread?

Pius Sullivan wrote:
Great Grey close up
Handheld




Aug 19, 2019 at 11:16 AM
RobAmy
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p.1 #11 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


With the 1dx Mark II, have you tried the silent high speed mode. Obviously you get less frames per second. I noticed that at the slower speeds, that the first, maybe the second shot was spot on but when in a high speed burst mode the rest could be off. I never gave it much thought because I just assumed the mirror slap at the low shutter was just too much to compensate for. I usually do not do much high speed burst when in poor light resulting in the low shutter speeds. I did not use the 600mm enough at low speeds while I had it to know if the burst of photos would be off after the first or second shot. I am referring to the 400mm which I have a lot below the 1/200th speed since I have owned it. When I use the Silent high speed, every shot is very good unless user error while handholding. I would be curious if it improves your situation, you may already have done this and I missed the post.


Aug 19, 2019 at 04:51 PM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #12 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images



Haven’t tried it yet on 1DX2 but did on 5DIV with no improvement. I’ll try it out on the 1DX2.


RobAmy wrote:
With the 1dx Mark II, have you tried the silent high speed mode. Obviously you get less frames per second. I noticed that at the slower speeds, that the first, maybe the second shot was spot on but when in a high speed burst mode the rest could be off. I never gave it much thought because I just assumed the mirror slap at the low shutter was just too much to compensate for. I usually do not do much high speed burst when in poor light resulting in the low shutter speeds. I did not use the 600mm enough
...Show more



Aug 19, 2019 at 05:24 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #13 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Have you tried adding weight to the hotshoe via a flash w/batteries, or to the bottom of the camera via a grip w/batteries? Those solutions have worked on other cameras with this same issue.


Aug 19, 2019 at 05:49 PM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #14 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


Not yet. Waiting to hear back from Canon Japan, hopefully this week. I'll see if I can test a bit further this weekend.

snapsy wrote:
Have you tried adding weight to the hotshoe via a flash w/batteries, or to the bottom of the camera via a grip w/batteries? Those solutions have worked on other cameras with this same issue.





Aug 19, 2019 at 09:52 PM
charlyw
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p.1 #15 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


KINGOFKNGS wrote:
Also 1/125 to 1/160 seems to be the worst for the blurring. Slower shutter speeds seem to be a bit better.


At those shutter speeds many are incapable of getting hand held shots - because that's the typical mirror lock up territory and the IS does not counteract the short intense shutter and mirror shock (it's not it's purpose, it's never been it's purpose and never will be)! Hand holding such a lens at slower speeds is pure user error.



Aug 20, 2019 at 03:47 AM
boxigen
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p.1 #16 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


charlyw wrote:
At those shutter speeds many are incapable of getting hand held shots - because that's the typical mirror lock up territory and the IS does not counteract the short intense shutter and mirror shock (it's not it's purpose, it's never been it's purpose and never will be)! Hand holding such a lens at slower speeds is pure user error.


1/640 would be minimal for hand-held without IS. They advertise IS as having 4-5 stops of compensation. That goes down to 1/40. Stating that using 1/160 is a user error is a clear contradiction with the advertisement, and in my opinion a complete nonsense. Lens exists in combination with a camera, so any shock issues are part of it and of any advertised properties.



Aug 20, 2019 at 04:38 AM
KINGOFKNGS
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p.1 #17 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


This is pretty accurate. This is the fifth or sixth image stabilized supertelephoto lens I’ve used, including the 600 IS versions 1 and 2, and 1/160 was not a problem with either of these. This also occurs when tripod mounted. It occurs with IS on when on a tripod but does not occur with IS off.

boxigen wrote:
1/640 would be minimal for hand-held without IS. They advertise IS as having 4-5 stops of compensation. That goes down to 1/40. Stating that using 1/160 is a user error is a clear contradiction with the advertisement, and in my opinion a complete nonsense. Lens exists in combination with a camera, so any shock issues are part of it and of any advertised properties.




Aug 20, 2019 at 05:27 AM
RobAmy
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p.1 #18 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


charlyw wrote:
At those shutter speeds many are incapable of getting hand held shots - because that's the typical mirror lock up territory and the IS does not counteract the short intense shutter and mirror shock (it's not it's purpose, it's never been it's purpose and never will be)! Hand holding such a lens at slower speeds is pure user error.


I do not believe the issues that he is having is user error. As far as IS goes with low ISO, well in my opinion if helped me get this at 1/80th handheld. I hand hold all the time in low ISO with get results with IS on.


Fox Kit by A & R Photography, on Flickr

Edited on Aug 26, 2019 at 03:52 AM · View previous versions



Aug 20, 2019 at 05:34 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #19 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


boxigen wrote:
1/640 would be minimal for hand-held without IS. They advertise IS as having 4-5 stops of compensation. That goes down to 1/40. Stating that using 1/160 is a user error is a clear contradiction with the advertisement, and in my opinion a complete nonsense. Lens exists in combination with a camera, so any shock issues are part of it and of any advertised properties.


The CIPA test for the performance of optical stabilizers is not very demanding and it is possible that they ran the test correctly and it gave the advertised result. It could be argued that a more demanding test should be used to give the users a more realistic idea of what kind of results to expect. However, this doesn't directly lead to a solution of the problem.

In practice, you can (1) use a tripod and turn IS OFF, (2) use a faster shutter speed and higher ISO, (3) replace the lens with the IS II version and hope that the extra weight alleviates the problem, (4) use a mirrorless camera such as the EOS R with EFCS, or (5) use flash.

The use of slow shutter speeds with long lenses on typical subjects (wildlife, birds, sports) is difficult: at slow shutter speeds, even if you can eliminate camera and lens shake, subject movement and imperfect tracking of the subject in the viewfinder leads to a large percentage of shots being unsharp, unless of course, the subject is perfectly still. I got some nice results of a swimming bird in very low light (1/100s, ISO 12800, f/5.6) by using a tripod and fluid head and maybe 20% of the shots were really detailed on the bird; in some shots the bird had moved in an off-axis direction (relative to the axis of panning) and severe blur had resulted, and in others, my panning speed had not been perfectly matched to the bird's movement. I think asking a technological solution (IS) to make miracles in such circumstances is asking a lot. I would just recommend using one or several of the solutions listed above (1-5), taking several shots and selecting the successful ones.



Aug 20, 2019 at 06:08 AM
charlyw
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p.1 #20 · 600 III stabilization/blurry images


ilkka_nissila wrote:
The use of slow shutter speeds with long lenses on typical subjects (wildlife, birds, sports) is difficult: at slow shutter speeds, even if you can eliminate camera and lens shake, subject movement and imperfect tracking of the subject in the viewfinder leads to a large percentage of shots being unsharp,


How true - often nothing helps but a faster shutter speed. The IS cures problems hand holding, if you then examine for critical sharpness you will lose a lot of the images for the various reasons you listed and some for other reasons (like shutter/mirror shock, heck even the movement of your finger on the shutter button contributes at those speeds).

What the OP needs to remember is that all shots that are visibly sharp examined as full size prints at the viewing distance required to view the image as a whole are considered successful - so no pixel peeping or zooming in until the doctor has to remove ink from your eyeball...



Aug 20, 2019 at 07:43 AM
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