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Archive 2019 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!

  
 
jacquesvroom
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p.1 #1 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


I actually posted these a short while ago in a techy discussion of the CV 50 Nokton FE. But here now for content criticism!

I am a long-time resident of the photography community, but only recently as a photographer. Mostly, I produced fancy print catalogs back in the days before the internet replaced most print merchandise catalogs. So, I frequently hung out with talented location-fashion-photographers.

But I am now long-since retired and trying to figure out how the smart, talented kids did and do this. After a lot of failed experiments, I think I’ve come to see where I belong—event and street portraits, and casual, personal portraits. Not necessarily because I have mastered those, but rather, that’s where my ocd leads me!

I recently stumbled onto 2 "visual opportunities" while on a photo walk.

In the first, this young woman was resting briefly on a street bench in my East Dallas neighborhood, on her own photo walk. The image has only been slightly altered from sooc—cropping and adjusting a bit for exposure. To me, a pretty good picture of a beautiful young person—gotten mostly by luck! God bless current Sony color-science, magnified manual focus, the Voigtlander 50mm Nokton at 1.2; and, of course, the genetic gifts this lady inherited...

In the second, I asked 3 guys playing basketball in the nearby park if it were ok to take a picture of them. I meant, "while you 3 are playing, even though I am an idiot to try this, using a MF lens". They surprised me by thinking I meant some kind of "team picture", which made focusing a good bit easier! They stopped, and came over to me. I just asked them turn to face into the below-treeline setting sun, and the Nokton did the rest. All 4 of us were quite happy with the rendering.

How might I have made these more better? Thanks.

Best to all.















This better? I am still not the world's best



Edited on Aug 03, 2019 at 08:58 PM · View previous versions



Aug 02, 2019 at 06:02 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #2 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


The rendering of that lens on the gal is really beautiful. It has that Stanley Kubrick Barry Lyndon vibe to it, which, is of course, a good thing. That's exactly the reason for having a lens like that. It's a beautiful portrait and you did a great job. The second is great in a completely different way. And you see how the character of the lenses changes in three stops. I would like to see a bit more detail in the white jacket if it's there on the original. And do watch Barry Lyndon if you get a chance and read up on the lenses that were used in that film.


Aug 02, 2019 at 06:20 PM
jacquesvroom
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p.1 #3 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


I completely agree with your idea of the Texas shirt being over exposed. I didn’t see it before. Now, I can’t not see it!! I am away from the original for a few days, but I’ll check it out soon. Thank you!



Aug 02, 2019 at 06:54 PM
friscoron
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p.1 #4 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



The beatings in this forum ended years ago. Now you're lucky to get any comments, and when you do, it's full of saccharin. However, not referring to Peter.



Aug 02, 2019 at 09:19 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #5 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


It usually takes me several days, if not more, of coming back to an image I'm working on, to arrive at a place where I'm not wanting to make more changes. I come back the next day and look at it with fresh eyes and say to myself, "what the hell were yo thinking yesterday..." The hardest thing is learning to be a good self editor and to be truly objective when looking at your own work. And then, trying to be objective about something so subjective, well, that's hard too. These images are really good. Keep 'em coming.


Aug 03, 2019 at 04:16 AM
story_teller
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p.1 #6 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Actually, the first photo is very compelling and not your typical street photo. Clean up the hair a bit and it would hold its own against other professional portraits. In #2 the white shirt does dominate the photo, but you can probably adjust that a bit in post.



Aug 03, 2019 at 08:33 AM
friscoron
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p.1 #7 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



I hardly ever comment any more on pics because I believe most ppl in here now just want a pat on the back and aren't really interested in learning what they can do to improve. Each of us will focus on different things when we view an image. In your case, Peter's focus was on the lens, and storyteller saw the flyaway hairs, both of which are good points.

In your case, in the first image, the first thing that catches my attention are the subject's eyes. The lighting is flat, and I just don't feel invited into her soul. For me, and I'm really just talking about my style, the lighting is wrong for the direction of this shot. Behind her looks like really good light. I might have turned her around.

The second image I just love. The light on them works really well. I love that they're all sweaty and yet they've got their arms around each other, one guy reaching out like he's going to give you a fist bump. Look at the energy in their eyes. Their faces have stories to tell, and this picture is one of them. As Peter mentioned, I do think the white shirt needs more details, but not a lot and I don't think it needs to be grayed out. The white shirt is in the middle, sandwiched by two gray shirts. I like that. I pretty much like everything about this image.



Aug 03, 2019 at 09:44 AM
bnfotografie
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p.1 #8 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



friscoron wrote:
The beatings in this forum ended years ago. Now you're lucky to get any comments, and when you do, it's full of saccharin. However, not referring to Peter.


If you think it's bad here, you should check out the Leica Forum. All anybody there wants to talk about is what lens or camera they just bought and then go into detail about their faults. It's become the forum where images go to die. I haven't found that to be the case here, although this is a much larger group with an overwhelming number of photos posted. It's hard to keep up with them all.

I love the top photo here. The lens is just part of what makes it great. The light, the expression, the composition all work well. Friscoron mentioned that he didn't like the flat light. That's the thing about photography--there's never going to be universal agreement about what's good or bad about an image. I like flat light for casual portraits like yours. I think overcast days for outdoor portraits can produce beautiful results.



Aug 03, 2019 at 04:53 PM
Steve Wylie
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p.1 #9 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


Okay, here's your beating. You missed focus on her right eye. Now that wasn't so bad, was it?

Seriously, I'm just not a fan of the super shallow depth of field at such short distances. F/1.4 or 2.0 would deliver the same overall aesthetic, or you might have been able to move back just a bit, and crop in in post. Other than that, I think it works well. As for the basketball shot, I too noticed the blown highlights in the shirt, but that didn't really distract me from the expressions of the three guys, which is really the story here.

So, good job and welcome.



Aug 04, 2019 at 12:23 AM
VickiB
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p.1 #10 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


Immediately, I thought of the Mona Lisa. I'm not sure there is higher praise.



Aug 04, 2019 at 06:26 AM
Jim Rickards
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p.1 #11 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


More beatings :-). These are hard to view on some monitors because of their large size. I have to scroll to see the whole picture.

OTOH, I'm enjoying what I see.



Aug 04, 2019 at 06:30 AM
friscoron
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p.1 #12 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



Five years ago, and for years before that, I'm pretty confident we got 15-20 new posts every day with images. It was really fun, really amazing. Now, we get maybe 1-2 posts a day, and often none.

As for your comment about liking the flat light and that there isn't universal agreement about what's good or bad about an image -- I couldn't agree more. And that's one thing I love about photography. That's why I prefaced my comment about it coming from my style. It would really be boring if everyone thought one style was the way to go, and then everybody did it like that.


bnfotografie wrote:
this is a much larger group with an overwhelming number of photos posted. It's hard to keep up with them all.

I love the top photo here. The lens is just part of what makes it great. The light, the expression, the composition all work well. Friscoron mentioned that he didn't like the flat light. That's the thing about photography--there's never going to be universal agreement about what's good or bad about an image. I like flat light for casual portraits like yours. I think overcast days for outdoor portraits can produce beautiful results.





Aug 04, 2019 at 12:13 PM
bnfotografie
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p.1 #13 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



friscoron wrote:
Five years ago, and for years before that, I'm pretty confident we got 15-20 new posts every day with images. It was really fun, really amazing. Now, we get maybe 1-2 posts a day, and often none.



Perhaps people who post here are getting more discriminating. I was a very active participant on the Leica Forum for a long time and finally pulled away from it for two reasons. One was that people were just "card dumping," or posting everything they shot. Much of it was garbage. The other reason was that nobody was interested in getting constructive comments about their images. All they wanted to read was, "beautiful," or "very nice." Whenever there was actual criticism, it was met with hostility. In my brief time back on this forum, it seems to me that the level of work posted is incredibly high. I'd rather see a few great photos than dozens of mediocre ones.



Aug 04, 2019 at 12:28 PM
bnfotografie
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p.1 #14 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


VickiB wrote:
Immediately, I thought of the Mona Lisa.


That's a very good comparison. The expressions are amazingly similar.




Aug 04, 2019 at 02:22 PM
jacquesvroom
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p.1 #15 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


All:

I am grateful to the 7 of you above for taking time to join in this process!

A few not-so-brief thoughts in response; apologies for the length :

Peter—I, too, am a big fan of Kubrick, including Barry Lyndon. You remind me to see it again, soon; it's been a long time; and well before I owned any f:1.2 [or f:0.7]! lenses. I remember faintly a distant conversation with an old college friend, about Vermeer-influences on BL. [Artie Wheelock, if you know him or of him.] You are kind to find a connection.

The white "Texas Ranger" baseball shirt remains difficult for me. On my naive own, I chose it to be the brightness level in that first image. Once the "extra" brightness was pointed out to me, I hated the "overexposure", and tried to reduce it a little. Now that I've seen both for a day or two, I am "of mixed mind". As you suggested, all that objectivity as a wrapper for our inherent subjectivity is hard, indeed! I hate that excellence seems so difficult, tedious, difficult to define, and fleeting. Though my hope is to continue on through all that fog!

Ron, and Steve, and Brent, and Vicki—Thank you for your reminders of the impact of different pov and sensibilities. In some ways, maybe all the images, here, and maybe everywhere, are like Rorschach tests. There will likely never be unanimity on meaning. I spent a few decades presenting design and photo creative I loved to clients—and sometimes getting my ass handed to me! I eventually sort of came to understand creative preferences can be very "context-sensitive". My eventual solution to all that was to retire and think more about the origins of my own preferences. It helps that in retirement, there are rarely any production deadlines!

Which takes us to matters of the hair and the camera-left eye. I think I get and accept both "complaints", though I'd like to add a thought to the mix:

I know there is one huge difference between me and a seasoned professional photographer. He or she is supposed to go into the field and reliably get a shot that has been requested and somewhat defined. I only do that infrequently and imperfectly. Mostly, I only "see" pictures a few minutes or even seconds before I take them. Many times I only "see" something I like after the exposure. I don't know what I am looking for until I see/think it.

The hair and eye now come back into play. I remember the "girl" picture-experience reasonably well. I thought it unusual that she'd be so pretty and so fully made-up on a warm July afternoon in a non-descript setting. Our whole interaction was maybe 90 seconds. I "saw" most of the eventual photo above pretty close to the way it came out.

I cannot pretend I pre-visualized how her left eye would be in sharp focus and her right eye would be in "less-sharp" focus. But I do think I saw early-on her left eye as the primary "focus" of her face. I was happy though, to have stumbled on the eye/focus relationship that showed up by accident. I like the viewers' eye-flow being guided by the visual primacy of her left eye, and then secondary attention to her other eye. Impressionistic? Rationalization? No objective answer!

Similar idea with the hair. If she were a portrait client, I would at least offer to "clean-up" that hair on the right side. But I consciously like that even young, appearance-perfect subjects have some small "imperfections". I hate pretending otherwise. My shrink wife says I am pretty disturbed!

Above is probably why I don't get asked to do that kind of perfect-portrait much, actually ever! And I was lucky she was so close to beautiful without much pp work.

With regard to her lack of soul-invitation, I agree. But I don't think she wanted to invite me or or any of us into her world that afternoon. Her friend was gregarious, but she was not. My sense was she didn't want to be rude, but couldn't help show a hint of her wish to get on with her non-me activities. To me, lack of empathetic connection wasn't so much because of the light, but rather her own psyche "leaking" out. On the other hand, wtf do I know?

I hope the takeaway for you contributors to this thread is that you have made me think beyond what I once thought, and I am grateful.

Thanks again to all. I promise not to card-dump!!

Jacques Vroom



Aug 04, 2019 at 09:49 PM
bnfotografie
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p.1 #16 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


Jacques,
There's a good deal of food for thought in your response and I'm glad you took the time and effort to write it. I completely agree with you about not "cleaning up" the hair. It's not the kind of portrait that needs absolute perfection. It would never even have occurred to me to clone them out. As for the right eye focus, in my opinion it's sharp enough. The left eye closest to the camera is by far the most important. It was clear to me that you were shooting at f/1.2 in order to achieve a beautiful background bokeh and at that aperture and closeness to the woman you just don't get much depth of field.
I think some people in forums like this will always look critically at a photo and try to find some fault. That's valid because we are all trying to learn and make better images. But at times this can go too far and be a little too picky. In my opinion, you nailed the shot. I hope to see more from you.
Best,
Brent




Aug 05, 2019 at 08:21 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #17 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


The focus is just fine on the eye. You want the near eye in focus if they both can't be sharp and that's exactly what was achieved. The hair is fine too. You try and clean that up and it'll look like that's just what you did. And while the lighting is flat as someone previously stated, the photo itself is not.


Aug 05, 2019 at 08:31 AM
jacquesvroom
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p.1 #18 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!


I am grateful to all. If any of you are in Dallas, bring me your scuffed shoes and dirty laundry—I'll try to return the favors! Thanks again...


Aug 05, 2019 at 12:55 PM
bnfotografie
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p.1 #19 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!




jacquesvroom wrote:
I am grateful to all. If any of you are in Dallas, bring me your scuffed shoes and dirty laundry—I'll try to return the favors! Thanks again...


Well, damn. I just flew out of there a week ago... And I had dirty laundry.



Aug 05, 2019 at 01:49 PM
jacquesvroom
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p.1 #20 · First time poster in this forum, ready for my beating!



Well, damn. I just flew out of there a week ago... And I had dirty laundry.


Brent, no worries. We just got more laundry soap today!!





Aug 05, 2019 at 07:42 PM
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