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Archive 2019 · small 200mm

  
 
hanay78
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p.1 #1 · small 200mm


Hello,

I am looking for an small 200mm.

I actually want to have the Apo-Lanthar, but is actually completely unavailable in Europe and importing it from Japan is a significant unrecoverable lost in VAT and taxes, >25%.

I was wandering about the next small lens, the Leica Elmar R 180mm f4.

From what i have read the APO-Telyt R f3,4 is excellent. Nevertheless is a heavy and large compared with the other. Maybe it is worth the extra size and weight?

How one compare in optical terms with the other? with APO-Lanthar? with OM f5? with GM 100-400?

I would buy the GM if it was not so heavy and large. I am quite sure I am not going to use due to it

Any help will be very welcome. Thanks in advance!




Mar 29, 2019 at 05:14 AM
Melindra
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p.1 #2 · small 200mm


Nikkor 4/200 AI-S.

Small, light, cheap, great quality wide open and perfect one stop down.

Built-in hood too.



Mar 29, 2019 at 05:21 AM
Betacamman
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p.1 #3 · small 200mm


Minolta 250mm 5.6 mirror

Very small, very light, rather expensive, quite sharp, hard to find

The Nikkor is probably a better option



Mar 29, 2019 at 05:31 AM
BastianK
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p.1 #4 · small 200mm


hanay78 wrote:
Hello,

I am looking for an small 200mm.

I actually want to have the Apo-Lanthar, but is actually completely unavailable in Europe and importing it from Japan is a significant unrecoverable lost in VAT and taxes, >25%.

I was wandering about the next small lens, the Leica Elmar R 180mm f4.

From what i have read the APO-Telyt R f3,4 is excellent. Nevertheless is a heavy and large compared with the other. Maybe it is worth the extra size and weight?

Leica Elmar R 180mm f4 is the worst of the bunch by quite some margin.
Optics didn't look any better to me than Canon nFD 200mm 4.0 or even Minolta MC 200mm 4.0.
Prime example that not everything with a red dot is immediately great.
Me: I just cannot live with the subpar image quality of tele lenses without ED elements.

Apo Lanthar 180mm 4.0: very good close, not so great at infinity. Latter is why I sold it.

Leica Apo Telyt: apparently the opposite of the Apo Lanthar: great at infinity but doesn't even focus close (mfd is a whopping 2.5 m).
On top of that: weight is that of the Canon nFD 80-200mm 4.0L or Canon EF 70-200mm 4.0L USM.
And if you care: I think it is one of the ugliest lenses ever made...

So for now I am using a Canon EF 70-200mm 4.0L USM, was tough finding one that isn't decentered, but it is super cheap compared to these legacy lenses
and will serve me well until one day we hopefully see a modern reincarnation of the 4/180 Apo Lanthar (65 x 1.7 = 110 x 1.7 = 187).



Mar 29, 2019 at 06:04 AM
hanay78
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p.1 #5 · small 200mm


Hello,

I found this comparison about this lens

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/200mm-center-comparison.htm

Thank you for mentioning it


Melindra wrote:
Nikkor 4/200 AI-S.

Small, light, cheap, great quality wide open and perfect one stop down.

Built-in hood too.





Mar 29, 2019 at 06:12 AM
hanay78
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p.1 #6 · small 200mm


Hi,

yes, it is heavy. I would go for the Apo-Lanthar but... 400€ in taxes looks to me like too much! i do not mind investing but the 400 is unrecoverable money

The leica is 600€, which is acceptable. The weight is high that is why i did not have it already. But what to do? the zoom you have is very large, maybe not so heavy, but very large. of course you have auto focus, but...

The comparisons including the nikon previously suggested are not very favorable in terms of optics. size and prize much better of course.

BastianK wrote:
Leica Elmar R 180mm f4 is the worst of the bunch by quite some margin.
Optics didn't look any better to me than Canon nFD 200mm 4.0 or even Minolta MC 200mm 4.0.
Prime example that not everything with a red dot is immediately great.
Me: I just cannot live with the subpar image quality of tele lenses without ED elements.

Apo Lanthar 180mm 4.0: very good close, not so great at infinity. Latter is why I sold it.

Leica Apo Telyt: apparently the opposite of the Apo Lanthar: great at infinity but doesn't even focus close (mfd is a whopping 2.5 m).
On top of
...Show more




Mar 29, 2019 at 06:20 AM
Melindra
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p.1 #7 · small 200mm




hanay78 wrote:
Hello,

I found this comparison about this lens

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/200mm-center-comparison.htm

Thank you for mentioning it





https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/200f4ai.htm

It's a rare occasion as I agree with Rock Kenwell.

The lens is super sweet. It's not only cheap and brilliant, it's a reminder of a time when products were made to be the best and to last forever.

I've been shooting it for decades, you won't be disappointed.



Mar 29, 2019 at 06:20 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #8 · small 200mm


BastianK wrote:
Leica Elmar R 180mm f4 is the worst of the bunch by quite some margin.
Optics didn't look any better to me than Canon nFD 200mm 4.0 or even Minolta MC 200mm 4.0.
Prime example that not everything with a red dot is immediately great.
Me: I just cannot live with the subpar image quality of tele lenses without ED elements.

Apo Lanthar 180mm 4.0: very good close, not so great at infinity. Latter is why I sold it.

Leica Apo Telyt: apparently the opposite of the Apo Lanthar: great at infinity but doesn't even focus close (mfd is a whopping 2.5 m).
On top of
...Show more

I originally purchased a Leica R 180mm f4 in about 1985 from my Leica dealer in mint condition. I did not like the performance of the lens and returned it about the next day. I then purchased a mint condition 180mm f3.4 Apo Telyt from my dealer and I still have it to this day. The lens was designed for the US Navy originally to take images at or near infinity where it performs its best. The lens was later offered to the public. The lens performs its best at or close to infinity (it is a 1970's design and the original Leica R Apo lens design). Yes the minimum focus of the lens is 2.5m. But, it can be used with a Leica R 2 or 3 ring extension set or a Leica Macro Adapter R; but I do not remember ever using either of theses commbinations with my lens. I have found that my lens performs much better than others have reported close to the minimum focusing range even when cropped and shown at 100%. The lens cannot be used with a Leica R 1.4X Apo Extender without the usage of one of the ring options or Macro Adapter R mentioned above between the lens and the Extender. The lens can be used with the Leica R 2X Apo Extender.

Rich



Mar 29, 2019 at 06:47 AM
hanay78
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p.1 #9 · small 200mm


Hi,

thank you very much for your answer!

What about quality of the lens compared with GM 100-400? or Oly 200 f5? any idea?

Regards!


naturephoto1 wrote:
I originally purchased a Leica R 180mm f4 in about 1985 from my Leica dealer in mint condition. I did not like the performance of the lens and returned it about the next day. I then purchased a mint condition 180mm f3.4 Apo Telyt from my dealer and I still have it to this day. The lens was designed for the US Navy originally to take images at or near infinity where it performs its best. The lens was later offered to the public. The lens performs its best at or close to infinity (it is a 1970's design and
...Show more




Mar 29, 2019 at 07:06 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #10 · small 200mm


hanay78 wrote:
Hi,

thank you very much for your answer!

What about quality of the lens compared with GM 100-400? or Oly 200 f5? any idea?

Regards!




I have not made a direct comparison between my Leica R 180mm f3.4 Apo Telyt and my Sony 100-400mm GM lens. I also do not have the Olympus lens.

I do know that my Leica R 280mm f4 Apo-Telyt is sharper than my Sony 100-400mm GM lens. But, the Sony is so convevient and flexible, and lighter than my Leica R 280mm f4 Apo Telyt that like Doug (telyt) I have not used my Leica R 280mm f4 Apo Telyt much since purchasing the Sony.

If I need to carry a smaller and lighter lens than the Sony 100-400mm GM lens, I opt form my Leica R 180mm f3.4 Apo Telyt. If I need more focal length, I would also pack my Leica R 2X Apo Telyt lens.

Rich



Mar 29, 2019 at 07:15 AM
tsdevine
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p.1 #11 · small 200mm


I really like the Olympus OM 200mm f/5, although I believe I have a multicoated version which is fairly hard to find. I know some prefer the f/4 version, but I couldn't notice enough difference between the two to warrant going with the larger f/4 version. I was willing to sacrifice speed for a smaller size.

Here's a comparison I did with the C/Y 100-300mm if it helps. I believe Fred has compared the C/Y 100-300mm to the GM 100-400, and he has (or had) the OM 200mm f/4 and I know there is a thread where he discusses performance against the GM 100-400. If you can't find it, I can try to search for it.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1571967/0#14673128

-Tim

Edited on Mar 29, 2019 at 07:39 AM · View previous versions



Mar 29, 2019 at 07:31 AM
mb126
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p.1 #12 · small 200mm


It's criminal to go 12 posts without mentioning the Canon 200 f/2.8. Fast AF with MC-11, sharp, great rendering, light, and stabilized on a sony!


Mar 29, 2019 at 07:38 AM
trogdon
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p.1 #13 · small 200mm


I’d recommend the Sigma 180mm f5.6 APO lens. Takes a bit of post processing to boost the contrast and colors a little bit, but it’s compact and pretty sharp from wide open. Quite a bit smaller than the Olympus 200mm f4 I also own.


Mar 29, 2019 at 07:58 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #14 · small 200mm


mb126 wrote:
It's criminal to go 12 posts without mentioning the Canon 200 f/2.8. Fast AF with MC-11, sharp, great rendering, light, and stabilized on a sony!


Well, the OP did ask for small and with the MC-11 it is about 900 grams has a 83mm diameter and is 136mm long. Unfortunately to me that is not small. It is a good optic, however, and would probably be my choice if AF were a priority but many in that situation would be looking at one of the Sony zooms. I really hope Sony makes a small nice lens in this range, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think if they make a 200, it will be a 200 f/2.

Like Bastian, telephotos this long (and in my view even shorter) really need some sort of special glass (ED, APD, fluorite, etc.) to control CA. That rules out a number of options including the wonderfully sized Olympus OM 200 f/5 and 200 f/4. It rules out all the Minolta MC and MD glass. It rules out all of the Zeiss lenses as well except the huge, quirky, and expensive 200 f/2 APO. It rules out the Nikon 200 f/4 (Q, K, Ai, or AiS, none of them have special glass to reduce CA). So to me that leaves the 1) Voigtlander 180 f/4 APO, which is wonderfully small and excellent close up, but I think a bit less excellent at infinity focus and it is ridiculously expensive these days. 2) The Nikon 180 f/2.8 ED (the AiS version is probably best for Sony) -- quite decent performance but not fully corrected for CA and a very nice price but at 800g before the adapter it isn't light and its pretty long and fat too, so not that small. 3) The Pentax A* 200 f/2.8 ED - this is a very nice lens and quite well corrected, unfortunately it is bigger than either the Nikon or Canon and still fairly expensive. 4) The Minolta AF 200 f/2.8 APO -- this lens is a quite good performer but like the Nikon and Canon AF lenses is quite large and pretty heavy. In addition you need to use the LAEA - 4 adapter which is not light, and limits performance quite a bit. 5) the Canon 200 f/2.8L describe above, and what was my choice the 6) Leica R 180 f/3.4 APO, which is far from a perfect lens, but is a quite strong performer at infinity. It is pretty heavy at 750g (before the adapter) and although it is as long as the others is much skinnier than anything except the Voigtlander at 68mm in diameter. As Rich pointed out it also has the trick up its sleeve that it can become a quite decent 360 f/6.8 lens is you add the Leica 2X APO teleconverter. Mine was stolen and I haven't replace it yet and I am ambivalent about doing so. On one hand it is bigger than I would like and it is starting to show it age (top lenses like the Leica 180 f/2.8 APO are clearly better), but on the other hand nothing has been made for a long time at this focal length and I am not convinced anything will be made and for my type of shooting (mostly infinity focus landscapes) this lens really does as well as anything except the larger and much more expensive Leica R 180 f/2.8 APO. I hope Voigtlander makes a new version of the 180 f/4 APO, but they even shortened the 125 f/2.5 APO Macro to 110. I am not at all sure they want to or there is much if any money to be made in a lens this long.



Mar 29, 2019 at 08:13 AM
trogdon
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p.1 #15 · small 200mm


The Sigma 180mm 5.6 APO would fall into that category of CA suppression you are looking for. It still has some lateral CA’s (the kind quite easily corrected with photoshop), but longitudinal CA’s and purple fringing are non-existent even from wide open at 5.6.


Mar 29, 2019 at 08:34 AM
tsdevine
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p.1 #16 · small 200mm



Steve,
If you believe this guy, the Olympus OM 200mm f/5 does have some special glass (not saying to the level you may be thinking about.) Note you have to run this through Google translate unless you can read Italian.

There is some CA that has to be removed, but I haven't found this to be very problematic in my shooting experience.

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Zuiko_OM_200mm_5/00_pag.htm

-Tim



Mar 29, 2019 at 08:37 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #17 · small 200mm


tsdevine wrote:
Steve,
If you believe this guy, the Olympus OM 200mm f/5 does have some special glass (not saying to the level you may be thinking about.) Note you have to run this through Google translate unless you can read Italian.

There is some CA that has to be removed, but I haven't found this to be very problematic in my shooting experience.

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Zuiko_OM_200mm_5/00_pag.htm

-Tim


I don't believe him that it is all that special. Olympus designated some of the their OM lenses as ED, like the 100 f/2 ED, and their fast super telephotos lenses. This lens they did not. Neither does the Mir resource for Olympus OM lenses mention it, and instead they describe it as always being a budget lens:

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/olympusom1n2/shared/zuiko/htmls/200mm1.htm

All that leads me to believe if it has special glass it is not likely to be the special glass that is effective in reducing lateral CA --that is the real problem with these telephotos. Even the 100 f/2 ED, which I own and has the ED label and was considered a premium lens in its time, really only partially corrects for these aberrations at a focal length that is much easier to correct.



Mar 29, 2019 at 08:54 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #18 · small 200mm


trogdon wrote:
The Sigma 180mm 5.6 APO would fall into that category of CA suppression you are looking for. It still has some lateral CA’s (the kind quite easily corrected with photoshop), but longitudinal CA’s and purple fringing are non-existent even from wide open at 5.6.


Interesting, I have never heard of this lens and purposely left off macro lenses assuming they would be pretty large at this focal length. This lens certainly isn't. My view is that lateral CA is easy to address in post processing, but I often don't like the results. lateral CA is right at the focal plane and turning colors into what is often gray right where you are focussing often detracts a fair amount. Lateral CA is one of the aberrations I dislike the most because it is not affected by stopping down the lens and it shows up right where you want people to look. So even though it is "correctable" in post processing, for my tastes it is one of the most important aberrations to correct.



Mar 29, 2019 at 09:13 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #19 · small 200mm


BastianK wrote:
Leica Elmar R 180mm f4 is the worst of the bunch by quite some margin.
Optics didn't look any better to me than Canon nFD 200mm 4.0 or even Minolta MC 200mm 4.0.
Prime example that not everything with a red dot is immediately great.
Me: I just cannot live with the subpar image quality of tele lenses without ED elements.

Apo Lanthar 180mm 4.0: very good close, not so great at infinity. Latter is why I sold it.

Leica Apo Telyt: apparently the opposite of the Apo Lanthar: great at infinity but doesn't even focus close (mfd is a whopping 2.5 m).
On top of
...Show more

Like Bastian, I am using the EF 70-200/4L (non-IS), and it is pretty wonderful.

A smaller second choice is the older Canon FD 200/4 -- mine is quite good except for correctable CA. Very small and light, and gets IS through a7R2 (as does the 70-200L).

Not small, but the best of collection in the focal range is the Nikon 180/2.8 ED-IF AI-S.



Mar 29, 2019 at 09:17 AM
realVivek
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p.1 #20 · small 200mm


Whether you believe the lens will cut it or not what is not to believe about Marco Cavina?

Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't believe him that it is all that special. Olympus designated some of the their OM lenses as ED, like the 100 f/2 ED, and their fast super telephotos lenses. This lens they did not. Neither does the Mir resource for Olympus OM lenses mention it, and instead they describe it as always being a budget lens:

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/olympusom1n2/shared/zuiko/htmls/200mm1.htm

All that leads me to believe if it has special glass it is not likely to be the special glass that is effective in reducing lateral CA --that is the real problem with these telephotos. Even the 100 f/2 ED, which I
...Show more




Mar 29, 2019 at 09:21 AM
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