p.1 #1 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
When I was recently using my EOS R for some concert shots, the silent shutter (electronic) appeared the right choice to me. Unfortunately, I had to learn that there occurs some interference between the flickering of artifical light with the speed of the detector read out. Especially LED lights used a lot in recent years show strong intensity differences at the AC supply frequency that transforms in some beat frequency .
Here I want to make you aware of this intrisic problem.
First shot is silent shutter at 1/500 s. Watch the wide pattern at the background wall.
Fortunately, the normal shutter operation of the EOS R is still rather quiet, more like EOS 5D IV in live view so that this limitation is not too bad from my perspective. Nonetheless, one needs to be aware of the unfortunate effect.
p.1 #2 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
jhg photo wrote:
Nonetheless, one needs to be aware of the unfortunate effect.
I think by now everyone knows that this is due to the slow readout speed - although your exposure is short the time it takes to move that exposure window across the frame is rather long...
p.1 #3 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
Just a secondary reminder, this is a result of using a silent shutter rather than the mechanical shutter AND working with lights whose intensity cycles... AND it affects every camera using this shooting mode currently.
You can find out more about this by Googling "rolling shutter" and "global shutter."
A solution for now is to avoid using the electronic shutter setting in such light unless you can test first to see if you'll have the problem. When it does work electronic shutter is a great thing, as it can make your camera completely silent.
p.1 #4 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
gdanmitchell wrote:
A solution for now is to avoid using the electronic shutter setting in such light unless you can test first to see if you'll have the problem. When it does work electronic shutter is a great thing, as it can make your camera complexity silent.
It's not just the lighting situation, it also affects the use with fast moving subjects...
p.1 #7 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
^^^
The OP's problem with "flickering lighting" still exists with faster readout. (The related "bent propeller" effect will be lessened but not eliminated.)
Again, the eventual solution is to incorporate "global shutter" systems into still cameras. Any camera with a "rolling shutter" will be subject to the problem.
p.1 #9 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
It has an anti-flicker setting, but only with the mechanical shutter. I believe the only camera that doesn't have this issue with silent shooting / electronic shutter is the A9. I know it happens on both the A7 III and the D850.
p.1 #10 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
Smackthatbird wrote:
It has an anti-flicker setting, but only with the mechanical shutter. I believe the only camera that doesn't have this issue with silent shooting / electronic shutter is the A9. I know it happens on both the A7 III and the D850.
I'm not so sure that the A9 "doesn't have this issue" — though if you can point me to something verifying that the A9 has, literally, a "global shutter" system rather than rolling shutter I am willing to learn something new.
My understanding was that the A9 has a faster sensor readout. That would not eliminate the "light banding" that our OP wrote about. It would decrease the magnitude of the effect on moving subjects, but would not eliminate it. Eliminating it requires "global shutter."
Again, I'm acknowledging up front that I may be wrong about the A9, in which case I welcome the opportunity to see evidence that it uses "global shutter."
Thanks.
BTW: For those who don't know, the Canon anti-flicker setting works with the mechanical shutter by delaying the shutter release a tiny bit to synchronize it with the cycling lights. Otherwise, especially with shorter exposure times, you can see quite a bit of exposure variation.
BTW #2: A quick bit of searching shows that A9 has a very fast rolling shutter that is getting close to functioning like a mechanical shutter. Still searching for more details...
p.1 #11 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
gdanmitchell wrote:
I'm not so sure that the A9 "doesn't have this issue" — though if you can point me to something verifying that the A9 has, literally, a "global shutter" system rather than rolling shutter I am willing to learn something new.
My understanding was that the A9 has a faster sensor readout. That would not eliminate the "light banding" that our OP wrote about. It would decrease the magnitude of the effect on moving subjects, but would not eliminate it. Eliminating it requires "global shutter."
Again, I'm acknowledging up front that I may be wrong about the A9, in which case I welcome the opportunity to see evidence that it uses "global shutter."
Thanks.
BTW: For those who don't know, the Canon anti-flicker setting works with the mechanical shutter by delaying the shutter release a tiny bit to synchronize it with the cycling lights. Otherwise, especially with shorter exposure times, you can see quite a bit of exposure variation.
BTW #2: A quick bit of searching shows that A9 has a very fast rolling shutter that is getting close to functioning like a mechanical shutter. Still searching for more details... ...Show more →
The A9's sensor readout speed is around 1/150, which gets it within spitting distance of existing mechanical shutters in terms of rolling shutter / light banding sensitivity, but still a bit worse since most mechanical shutters are around 1/250.
p.1 #12 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
^^^
Thanks. That's what I'm picking up as I read more about it. Still a "rolling shutter" system, but with aspects sped up to where it almost equals mechanical shutter performance.
Global shutter will be a very good thing. Eventually!
(I use electronic shutter on my Fujifilm system for some events at which a silent camera is critical — classical music concerts, for example.)
p.1 #13 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
Thank you for the input and various replies.
gdanmitchell has nicely summarized the various points and arguments in his posts.
I agree, that this effect is due to comparatively slow detector readout and presents just another expression of the "bent propeller problem". Unfortunately, such stripes accross a frame spoil the photo completely. Avoiding them by using shutter speeds of 1/30 s or so is not an option when shooting people while speaking, playing music etc. It would of course permit silent shots of static scenes.
The anti-flicker system cannot help here as this refers to compensation of shot-to-shot variation in brightness and color cast when shooting out of phase with the light's fluctuation.
Overall, I still like my EOS R for all the other benefits like flip screen, bright view finder in almost dark situations, easy manual focusing etc. I just have to get used to it and to explore it further.
p.1 #14 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
jhg photo wrote:
... Unfortunately, such stripes accross a frame spoil the photo completely. Avoiding them by using shutter speeds of 1/30 s or so is not an option when shooting people while speaking, playing music etc. It would of course permit silent shots of static scenes.
When shooting in sound-sensitive environments, like religious ceremonies and performance, I used a combination of a pair of 6D and a pair (was trio, now single) of Fujifilm X100S. Most of the time, including when people are speaking to the general audience, the 6D silent shutter is fine. For particularly sound-averse parts, I switch to the X100S, with a WCL converter on one (equiv. 28mm) and TCL on another (50mm). The X100-series leaf shutter is virtually silent, and the cameras are relatively small and discrete, although the TCL converter is larger than I would like.
p.1 #15 · EOS R silent shutter causes stripes in flickering light
While I've never used an A9 personally, when I was researching the A73 vs. the A9, I found a few comparisons of the same lighting conditions and shutter speeds producing vastly different levels of banding. Just google banding on sony a9 vs. a73 and I think you can decide for yourself based on the tests. I'm too lazy to find them, but they're out there.
