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Archive 2018 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

T_Gordon
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p.3 #1 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Very interesting and thanks for sharing!!! Too bad there aren't huelight files for Capture One.

Oct 17, 2018 at 11:49 AM

Dj R
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p.3 #2 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

@ajamils

I like FM's tweaks for a7rIII
he never intended for folks with A7III to use the same tweaks, but I have....
for A7III, sometimes the reds come in too oversaturated, and lips are overcooked.
so @fred miranda we may need your input. I'm not a mad scientist, like you.
so for A7III, I salt to taste with regard to lips, skin tones look good though.

regarding huelight, I love it for a baseline. and I like a few of their profiles. I use three of them all the time now.

Oct 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM

ajamils
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p.3 #3 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

I am using A7rIII so definitely interested in a good baseline to start with so I don't have to do too much processing. That's one thing that I really miss from Fuji.

Oct 17, 2018 at 03:37 PM

Dj R
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p.3 #4 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

ajamils wrote:
I am using A7rIII so definitely interested in a good baseline to start with so I don't have to do too much processing. That's one thing that I really miss from Fuji.

to be honest. with this baseline of huelight and Fred's specs, I don't have to do much of anything!

Oct 17, 2018 at 04:34 PM

Chaliel
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p.3 #5 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

How about Capture One Pro for Sony?
I do like it much more then Adobe!

Oct 18, 2018 at 07:40 AM

BlueBomberTurbo
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p.3 #6 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Chaliel wrote:
How about Capture One Pro for Sony?
I do like it much more then Adobe!

C1's profiles are all over the place, so trying to do something like this will yield wildly different results between cameras. One camera doesn't match the next, nor are there third party profiles available like Huelight to do so. It's incredibly hard to make a profile yourself, vs only a few clicks to do so for Adobe. Also doesn't support dual illuminant profiles. I can adjust to the workflow vs Adobe, but color is the biggest reason I can't switch to C1.

Oct 18, 2018 at 08:25 AM

MFoucs
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p.3 #7 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Oct 18, 2018 at 09:04 AM

sebbe
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p.3 #8 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
C1's profiles are all over the place, so trying to do something like this will yield wildly different results between cameras. One camera doesn't match the next, nor are there third party profiles available like Huelight to do so. It's incredibly hard to make a profile yourself, vs only a few clicks to do so for Adobe. Also doesn't support dual illuminant profiles. I can adjust to the workflow vs Adobe, but color is the biggest reason I can't switch to C1.

ehm... maybe it's time to do some homework?

1. C1 uses ICC profiles there is no need for dual illuminant profiles. Unfortunately the dual illuminant DNG-profiles are a compromise.
2. x-rite plugin profiles compensate any mistakes you made when shooting a target. This sounds good, but ends up in mediocre profiles. To be honest a correct white balance is often the better solution.
3. proper camera profiles can be done for every (good) RAW-processor. But it has to be done with proper software (argyll, lumariver, dcamprof, basiccolor input) and need a proper setup. Because of several things an ICC-profile for C1 is easier to create than a dual illuminant DNG-profile for LR.
4. C1 can be used with true linear tone curves, LR does not have that. That's the reason why it is used for reproduction shots.
5. C1 can turn off any baked in lens profiles. This is not possible in LR.

IF you're about colours you have much more control with C1. This does not mean you can't do great things and get the colours you like with LR.

Oct 18, 2018 at 09:10 AM

Dj R
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p.3 #9 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

1. I like C1 but I'm too slow on it, and I'm in the middle of my busy season. I will dive into it some in my off season.

2. there was an update yesterday on LRCC. adobe heard you coming, C1. So they have been pumping iron and will make LR even better. which they did yesterday. major update. I suggest going to adobe and watching the video on the update.

3. nice to have competition!

Oct 18, 2018 at 09:24 AM

wstam
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p.3 #10 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Hi, please pardon my ignorant. What is this "FM Color Science"? Is it some profiles that Fred provides? Where can I get/purchase it?

Thanks for enlightening me. Cheers.

Oct 18, 2018 at 10:06 AM

BlueBomberTurbo
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p.3 #11 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

MFoucs wrote:
Are you saying that there is wide variation within the same model of camera or between models? So the same profile for my a7iii will look different from your a7iii? That would be surprising and worrisome!

Between models. Take my A6300, for example. Terrible color rendering. Basically unusable for skin tones without extra work. Now the A6500, with the exact same sensor, released only months later, looks great. I can actually use the A6500 profile on the A6300 and get the exact same look, but that solves nothing with my other cameras that also look different with their specific profiles. Also, C1 only has a single profile for 95% of cameras. None of the emulated profiles like Adobe, nor a Standard/Color profile that attempts to unify all brands.

sebbe wrote:
ehm... maybe it's time to do some homework?

1. C1 uses ICC profiles there is no need for dual illuminant profiles. Unfortunately the dual illuminant DNG-profiles are a compromise.

Funny, because files I have to edit at work from the 5D III and IV look terrible under incandescent lighting. Things are much more natural with Adobe's rendering.

2.. x-rite plugin profiles compensate any mistakes you made when shooting a target. This sounds good, but ends up in mediocre profiles. To be honest a correct white balance is often the better solution.

Yup, X-Rite's software is pretty bad. I've been using Lumariver and more recently, BasicColor, where one is as flexible as humanly possible, and the other one is very inflexible, but produces extremely consistent results.

3. proper camera profiles can be done for every (good) RAW-processor. But it has to be done with proper software (argyll, lumariver, dcamprof, basiccolor input) and need a proper setup. Because of several things an ICC-profile for C1 is easier to create than a dual illuminant DNG-profile for LR.

I've experienced the exact opposite. It's very easy to create consistent color in DCPs as long as the lighting is even. Even if the color temp varies between samples by a few hundred K. With ICCs, things need to be extremely exact, and even then, the tone curve isn't close to C1's own. I've never been able to successfully create an ICC profile for C1.

4. C1 can be used with true linear tone curves, LR does not have that. That's the reason why it is used for reproduction shots.

Lumariver bypasses Adobe's tone curve, so you can create a true linear curve for DCPs if you want.

5. C1 can turn off any baked in lens profiles. This is not possible in LR.

True.

If you're about colours you have much more control with C1. This does not mean you can't do great things and get the colours you like with LR.

Any tips? As above, I have Lumariver and BasicColor (preferred) at my disposal, and have followed step-by-step tutorials for profile generation on both.

Oct 18, 2018 at 10:21 AM

Dj R
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p.3 #12 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

It�s clearly described in the third paragraph of the original post

Cheers!

wstam wrote:
Hi, please pardon my ignorant. What is this "FM Color Science"? Is it some profiles that Fred provides? Where can I get/purchase it?

Thanks for enlightening me. Cheers.

Oct 18, 2018 at 10:21 AM

wstam
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p.3 #13 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Dj R wrote:
It�s clearly described in the third paragraph of the original post

Cheers!

Oh I see. It's referring to these adjustments:
Profile: Adobe Color. Calibration Pane - change Red Primary: Hue -7, Red Saturation +30, Green Primary: Hue +10, Green Saturation +25
Leave the rest at default. But bump the vibrance up - salt to taste, figure between +10 and +20.

OK. I will check them out. I do have the Huelight profiles and use them as baseline. Thanks for replying.

Oct 18, 2018 at 10:28 AM

Dj R
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p.3 #14 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

wstam wrote:
Oh I see. It's referring to these adjustments:

OK. I will check them out. I do have the Huelight profiles and use them as baseline. Thanks for replying.

yep
those are specifically for an A7RIII.
but is a good starting point for an A7III too, just examine the lips to see - on an image to image basis with this body.

Oct 18, 2018 at 10:36 AM

sebbe
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p.3 #15 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Any tips? As above, I have Lumariver and BasicColor (preferred) at my disposal, and have followed step-by-step tutorials for profile generation on both.

Sorry, I read your first post a little wrong. Here is a list of things to look at to get a good tiff for profiling. If you go the lumariver way, look at the documentation of Anders too. On the BasICColor do the same steps until export. The rest is made automatically in BasICColor Input 5.

My C1 is in german. I hope I have translated all correctly here.

Calibrating with C1:

If you didn't make it already. Copy the "linear scientific" curve file from another camera and rename it for your camera. restart C1. With this curve, all compression is turned off. Use this curve for the target shot not later for pictures.
Set the readout to Lab-mode for better control.
Shoot the target with K5000-6000. Tethering is useful to see the quality of the target shot directly. You can set lab-readouts on useful patches.
Settings: "no color correction", "linear scientific", use an LCC (for this lens, aperture), sharpening off, noise reduction off, lens profile off
To get it easy in Lumariver white balance the shot. Check the brightness on a field around 65 lightness (Lab) and adjust it (up to 0.3 stops is fine otherwise reshoot it).
If it is not evenly lit: Add a new level and set it to +0.3 brightness. Equalize the brightness with a brush and very low flow. If your target does not have fields to equalize brightness you can just shoot a white paper in front of the target and do it with it (and copy it to the target shot afterwards). Use the levels to set the DR just around the paper white reduce saturation to 0. It's much easier then. You may feather the mask at the end to get smoother transitions.
Crop to the target, export as tiff with embedded profile.
Open the tiff in Lumariver. Adjust the curve to get the correct lightness for all available grey fields to the Lab values you see of the same shot in C1. depending on the target you have to smoothen the very dark part a little on top. Set the readout to Lab on the top left and also set to "preview". save this curve. it is reusable. I have one for each lens.

This sounds a lot but IMO the possibilities to setup and adjust slightly the tiff before starting in lumariver helps to get very good results at the end. After you save the import and export settings and have done it a few time this goes very quickly. I have more issues to get an evenly lit tungsten shot for the dual illuminated profile.

Oct 18, 2018 at 12:12 PM

ChrisMak
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p.3 #16 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Between models. Take my A6300, for example. Terrible color rendering. Basically unusable for skin tones without extra work. Now the A6500, with the exact same sensor, released only months later, looks great. I can actually use the A6500 profile on the A6300 and get the exact same look, but that solves nothing with my other cameras that also look different with their specific profiles. Also, C1 only has a single profile for 95% of cameras. None of the emulated profiles like Adobe, nor a Standard/Color profile that attempts to unify all brands.

Funny, because files I have to edit at...Show more →

Regarding CO1 profiles being all over the place regarding different cameras: yes, they are. There is a sneaky bit of cheating going on with new camera support, because although Phase One claims on its website, that each and every supported camera is carefully measured in house and gets a dedicated profile as a result, the reality is often quite a bit different. There is a lot of copy/pasting of camera profiles going on between different cameras of a brand, sometimes with totally different sensors.
I found out that this is not a suspicion, but quite true, by checking the internal naming of the Pentax K5IIs and the Pentax K3 profiles, and found that they were both internally named "K5IIs generic".
Only a trial and error support case may get Phase One to physically get the camera in house and make a true generic profile.
There is also quite a bit of tweaking going on, mostly with different white balance readings of the same typeof raw file, as shown when changing the metadata model name e.g. Sony A7RII to Sony A7RIII, leading to one camera having a somewhat warmer look than another camera. Sony A7 series tends to look yellowish/warm, in a way impossible to correct with white balance.

So although CO1 c�n have great color, it can also imprison you in bad colors when the generic profile is not done properly by Phase One. Lightroom at least looks very consistent, and if you learn the software, it's far easier to get consistent results.

Chris

Oct 18, 2018 at 03:41 PM

ajamils
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p.3 #17 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

Dj R wrote:
yep
those are specifically for an A7RIII.
but is a good starting point for an A7III too, just examine the lips to see - on an image to image basis with this body.

Which "Process: Version" do you select under Calibration with "Adobe Color"? If I select anything but 5(latest), it reverts back to Adobe Standard. version 5 by itself on Adobe Color is very dark and it gives weird colors.

Oct 28, 2018 at 12:14 AM

DavidBM
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p.3 #18 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

ajamils wrote:
Which "Process: Version" do you select under Calibration with "Adobe Color"? If I select anything but 5(latest), it reverts back to Adobe Standard. version 5 by itself on Adobe Color is very dark and it gives weird colors.

Adobe Colour is a new profile that only works with process version 5. It�s designed to look a bit more punchy to suite the taste of people tempted by C1. I quite like the look, but prefer to start with the slightly more colourmetrically accurate adobe standard before processing. You can still use standard with process 5.

Oct 28, 2018 at 02:25 AM

memoria
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p.3 #19 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
I have Lumariver and BasicColor (preferred) at my disposal, and have followed step-by-step tutorials for profile generation on both.

How do you find BasicColor vs Lumariver?

I have Lumariver and it is quite flexible. Is BasicColor the same? Can you create a certain "look" or is it a one-fits-all profile "take it or leave it" approach (just like X-rites software).

For example, can you tweak the saturation and contrast levels with the BasicColor? My ambition is to create "pleasing" profiles with very rich saturation (FujiFilm and rebel-level Canons for example) but not sure if BasicColor is the way to go?

Do you use a regular CC24 chart or have you purchased the BasicColor version with more patches?

Thanks for any feedback.

Nov 05, 2018 at 06:32 AM

sebbe
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p.3 #20 · color, huelight & adobe profiles, fred's calibration

memoria wrote:
How do you find BasicColor vs Lumariver?

I have Lumariver and it is quite flexible. Is BasicColor the same? Can you create a certain "look" or is it a one-fits-all profile "take it or leave it" approach (just like X-rites software).

For example, can you tweak the saturation and contrast levels with the BasicColor? My ambition is to create "pleasing" profiles with very rich saturation (FujiFilm and rebel-level Canons for example) but not sure if BasicColor is the way to go?

Do you use a regular CC24 chart or have you purchased the BasicColor version with more patches?

Thanks for any feedback.

BasICColor creates just reproduction profiles. You can't create looks with it. I'm not sure if BasICColor or Lumariver creates a better repro profile. But both do a good job here and in anything else Lumariver should be your choice.

Edit: I'm using CCSG + IT.87 in combination to get the (subjectively) best result. IMO the CC24 lacks very dark fields and such outside of sRGB.

Nov 05, 2018 at 06:47 AM

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