DavidBM wrote:
Maybe that's true in theory, but in practice I've found eye AF to work well enough on pictures or monitors that if it consistently front focussed on a monitor I'd worry...
Yeah, I would worry too, but if I am testing a lens I would want to be testing it using the AF mode in the way it was intended and I would be reluctant to draw conclusion, even if I was worried, if I was using the AF mode in a way that it was not intended.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, thanks for the update. By the way as I understand it you can't use eye AF with a picture or and image on a monitor as I believe the algorithm for the eye AF uses 3D information to get the eye AF right. I am still waiting to see if killermac reports the same behaviour as you are seeing. He seems to be reporting precision problems not accuracy problems, so I am suspecting you aren't seeing the same things, but I would love to see him chime in.
Someone suggested it on DPR as a method that Sony recommends, I don't know how true that it is but I thought it couldn't hurt to try as it has the distinct advantage that I don't need to take someone else's time and patience to test.
Two things to consider though, I don't really feel I made any obvious mistakes when I had a live subject and even if Eye AF doesn't work with 2D subjects I performed two tests, one using Eye AF and one using AF-S with magnified view both of which front focused.
As per the earlier suggestion I also tried with all 3 focusing distance modes and still had front focus in those modes.
I'm still open to suggestions on what else to try.
Nov 07, 2018 at 06:47 PM
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Simon Barker wrote:
Someone suggested it on DPR as a method that Sony recommends, I don't know how true that it is but I thought it couldn't hurt to try as it has the distinct advantage that I don't need to take someone else's time and patience to test.
Two things to consider though, I don't really feel I made any obvious mistakes when I had a live subject and even if Eye AF doesn't work with 2D subjects I performed two tests, one using Eye AF and one using AF-S with magnified view both of which front focused.
As per the earlier suggestion I also tried with all 3 focusing distance modes and still had front focus in those modes.
I'm still open to suggestions on what else to try....Show more →
Simon, please don't think I am criticizing you. I think AF testing is extremely hard and considerably harder than testing for sharpness. There are lots of things to consider and lots of moving parts, so it is very hard to isolate an AF issue. I think you have done a good job of describing and figuring out what is going on with your lens. It just sounds to me like it is a different thing than what a couple of other people on this thread have described. You problem seems to be about accuracy and other's problems seem to be less about that and more about issues with precision. That makes me wonder whether your particular lens may be different from others discussed on this thread. If it were me, I would send your lens back for a new copy and see if the second copy showed the same behavior or not. Obviously if a second copy worked well that would be great, if it shows exactly the same problem then you could send back the lens with greater confidence that it isn't working for you.
I've just acquired the 40mm and have the same issue (and joined here specifically to discuss!).
Consequently, I've emailed Sony Pro support to see if they have any thoughts on the issue. I know they won't want to criticise Zeiss, but I've asked for a 'round about' explantion regarding Eye AF to see if it might throw some light on the issue.
Out of curiosity, I am going to post a separate question in this forum regarding AF in general to gather any insights.
captivatingphotography wrote:
I've just acquired the 40mm and have the same issue (and joined here specifically to discuss!).
Consequently, I've emailed Sony Pro support to see if they have any thoughts on the issue. I know they won't want to criticise Zeiss, but I've asked for a 'round about' explantion regarding Eye AF to see if it might throw some light on the issue.
Out of curiosity, I am going to post a separate question in this forum regarding AF in general to gather any insights.
That's really disappointing to hear (and I'm sure incredibly frustrating for you).
This tells me two things:
1. The ball is firmly in Zeiss' court and if they want to rescue this lens, they need to address whatever issue is causing the consistent front-focusing behavior. I simply don't understand how a native lens could do this. I was just out last night with my Canon 200 on an MC-11 using EyeAF and it nailed focus. One of the biggest benefits of a mirrorless system is the end of front-focusing. I love not having to mess with Canon's frustrating micro adjustment and being free to compose portraits knowing my subject's eye will be in focus.
2. I'm guessing you found this thread through a Google search and, if so, that means the message is getting out there. Hopefully some of the Zeiss Enthusiasts/Ambassadors who commented here can raise the issue to their contacts at the company. It's about one week out from an 'official' release for this lens and then the noise from this issue is just going to increase...
Nov 08, 2018 at 06:58 AM
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captivatingphotography wrote:
I've just acquired the 40mm and have the same issue (and joined here specifically to discuss!).
Consequently, I've emailed Sony Pro support to see if they have any thoughts on the issue. I know they won't want to criticise Zeiss, but I've asked for a 'round about' explantion regarding Eye AF to see if it might throw some light on the issue.
Out of curiosity, I am going to post a separate question in this forum regarding AF in general to gather any insights.
Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by the same issue? I assume you mean that you have trouble with eye AF, but no trouble with regular AF. Is that correct? If it is correct, can you describe the trouble with eye AF. Does it always miss by the same amount or does it miss sometimes and is fine sometimes and it is hard to predict exactly where it will focus?
normie610 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, the lens has 3 focusing distance settings right? Full, 0.4m - infinity and 0.24 - 0.5m. At which focus distance setting does the Eye-AF issue occur? Could perhaps the Eye-AF function somehow related to this feature?
I don’t think so but could not answer 100% as the Batis is already back at the dealer. But even if it would be the case, this is not a solution to always switch.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Simon, please don't think I am criticizing you. I think AF testing is extremely hard and considerably harder than testing for sharpness. There are lots of things to consider and lots of moving parts, so it is very hard to isolate an AF issue. I think you have done a good job of describing and figuring out what is going on with your lens. It just sounds to me like it is a different thing than what a couple of other people on this thread have described. You problem seems to be about accuracy and other's problems seem to be less about that and more about issues with precision. That makes me wonder whether your particular lens may be different from others discussed on this thread. If it were me, I would send your lens back for a new copy and see if the second copy showed the same behavior or not. Obviously if a second copy worked well that would be great, if it shows exactly the same problem then you could send back the lens with greater confidence that it isn't working for you....Show more →
Don't worry I'm not some delicate flower that takes any comment that doesn't fully agree with me as a personal criticism, your point is entirely valid, I only have one lens to check which doesn't tell us anything beyond perhaps this one lens is faulty.
I haven't sent the lens back for a few reasons, firstly I was hoping Zeiss would confirm a resolution which saves me the trouble (I prefer not to lumber smaller retailers with returns where they're not at fault and the lens is otherwise excellent, the next copy might not be) and this was the last one they had in stock although they do seem to have more stock now (or perhaps other people's returns? ) and as I don't really do portraits not having Eye AF isn't truly a deal breaker (I only checked Eye AF after I'd seen killermac's comments).
If I don't hear back from Zeiss today I think my only choice is to return it...
Simon Barker wrote:
I don't think that's the problem here, otherwise I'd see it happening with other lenses no?
Well, the point of the other thread is just to say that other lenses (+cameras) have similar problems too. I do not know what the problem is, I am just saying that maybe it is not a problem specific to one lens but that it might be a problem that occurs when certain lenses are on certain cameras (because of some quirk in communication between lens and camera which for some reason - unknown as yet - manifests itself more easily with those combinations.)
Nov 08, 2018 at 08:33 AM
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Simon Barker wrote:
I don't think that's the problem here, otherwise I'd see it happening with other lenses no?
Simon, I'm not sure. I was thinking along similar lines that the A7 III and A7r III has had reports of front focus just with eye AF before the Batis 40 was out. I think it is possible that there may be some interaction between the lens (let's say as an example a registration distance that is a bit too short) with the way eye AF works that leads to a precise but inaccurate focus. That won't be fixable with a firmware upgrade. If it is lens registration distance that is the problem then it could be the camera or the lens. If it was the camera it would affect many lenses (but perhaps some would be unaffected because of their design), but if it was the lens then it might only affect that lens.
Nov 08, 2018 at 08:37 AM
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killermac wrote:
I don’t think so but could not answer 100% as the Batis is already back at the dealer. But even if it would be the case, this is not a solution to always switch.
Can you clarify whether your problems with the lens were that it always AF (with eye AF) to the same spot that was the wrong spot, or if the misfocus was hit and miss so that sometimes you were in focus, sometimes front focus and other times back focus?
Nov 08, 2018 at 08:38 AM
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captivatingphotography wrote:
I've just acquired the 40mm and have the same issue (and joined here specifically to discuss!).
Consequently, I've emailed Sony Pro support to see if they have any thoughts on the issue. I know they won't want to criticise Zeiss, but I've asked for a 'round about' explantion regarding Eye AF to see if it might throw some light on the issue.
Out of curiosity, I am going to post a separate question in this forum regarding AF in general to gather any insights.
Can you clarify the way you see misfocus? Is it always misfocussed to the same spot but the wrong spot or do you see focus that is often wrong (sometimes front, sometimes back, and occasionally in focus)? Thanks.
I’m out just bought a 55mm 1.8 off the board. See if this issue gets solved or something new comes along. It’s a working lens so I’m not taking the risk. So I have the Sony 24,55 and I’ll keep my Tammy 28-75 just in case.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by the same issue? I assume you mean that you have trouble with eye AF, but no trouble with regular AF. Is that correct?
Indeed, that is the apparent problem.
Steve Spencer wrote:
If it is correct, can you describe the trouble with eye AF. Does it always miss by the same amount or does it miss sometimes and is fine sometimes and it is hard to predict exactly where it will focus?
In my brief tests, the Eye AF misses almost without fail to the same extent, always front focussing.
The only doubt I have now is that this is generally not the combination of settings that I shoot (this focal length, wide open, four feet away max.), so I'm wondering whether it is a lens problem, or if I've fallen into the trap of repeating the method to reproduce a fault that is entirely with the camera.
Others have pointed out to me that there are many threads throughout the net raising this issue with other lenses. It could well be a 'close distance' camera problem, so not normally seen in longer focal lengths as subjects will be farther away. That doesn't mean, of course, that it isn't a problem.
What it will mean is that we will most likely come across it if we try to take headshots with 35-55mm, because any wider will have a greater DoF and any longer and we would be farther away.
And that is appearing to be starkly familiar regarding all those threads...!
Ok, being a true Zeiss enthusiast I've felt bad because of Eye-AF issue with Batis 2/40 - all those who have a bad lens have all my empathy. So, while I have some contacts with Zeiss I've been trying to contact them about Eye-AF issue. Finally today I got a brief message from Zeiss that they are aware of this issue and are on it. So, I only know that the message has been heard and actions are taken, but I don't have any other information for example, if the issue is related to Zeiss or Sony (lens or body), when they are going to solve it or is there going to be a fix for it soon.
However, I can personally speculate about it a bit. First of all, I'm sure this issue is on very high priority with Zeiss because lenses are already shipping to customers and it gets more costly for them to fix things afterwards. As there has been some concern because Zeiss hasn't responded sooner, it's probably because, for them, it takes more time to check it out. It probably isn't as easy as pointing lens to nearest eye. They also have know what's causing it and what do about it before they can come out with a press release.
And I'm sure the functional Eye-AF is very important for them, and I'm also sure that they have been testing it and whole AF-functionality already before, but for some reason the error have still escaped their routines. Maybe it's a software mismatch between their development platform/diagnostic tools and real cameras (Sony does update general AF algorhythms as new functions are added to new bodies). Maybe it's a certain batch of lenses/certain batch of bodies. Maybe it's something to do with Sony firmwares (people have been reporting similar issues with A7III and A7RIII). So, I guess there are many variables and they want to sure before stating anything publicly. So, we don't know what's causing it, but the good news is that it is being investigated. They just probably need a bit time to fully check the situation and their options.
captivatingphotography wrote:
The only doubt I have now is that this is generally not the combination of settings that I shoot (this focal length, wide open, four feet away max.), so I'm wondering whether it is a lens problem, or if I've fallen into the trap of repeating the method to reproduce a fault that is entirely with the camera.
Others have pointed out to me that there are many threads throughout the net raising this issue with other lenses. It could well be a 'close distance' camera problem, so not normally seen in longer focal lengths as subjects will be farther away. That doesn't mean, of course, that it isn't a problem....Show more →
I don't shoot people so Eye AF doesn't especially matter to me (beyond simply the confidence of knowing it's there should I ever need it) but I do sometimes use magnification to make sure auto focus is exactly where I want it quickly and that's when I first came across the problem. After seeing the reports of problems with Eye AF I started testing that too, I'm assuming the two issues are related as the behaviour appears consistent between them but my point is I don't think this is just an Eye AF issue just that's where the majority of people are going to come across it.
The reason I doubt it's the camera though is I've done this before without any issues, I have a Sony 90mm and it seems to focus more precisely when magnified so if it's down to the camera at close range then the 90mm should fall apart in that scenario too but it never has.
I can't get through to Zeiss over the phone and I sent another email asking for help, I'll speak with the retailer about a replacement tomorrow if I don't hear anything from them so at least we'll be able to rule out if it's just down to my copy of the 40mm.
No question it’s the lens and not the bodies as there 85,135 are deadly on EYE AF even there 25 is really good. They may have in the case trying to get close focus is go beyond the limits in some way
Only Zeiss has that answer but I would not be putting blame on Sony’s bodies as there new 24 is outstanding with Eye Af.
Just me but any reports from DPR are immediately ignored on my end except from maybe 2 people.
Just a big FYI as many people don’t know this but Sony’s AF system is built on reading vertical lines and not horizontal lines. So the whole AF is built on the ability to find contrast going vertically.
) and as I don't really do portraits not having Eye AF isn't truly a deal breaker (I only checked Eye AF after I'd seen killermac's comments).