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NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII

  
 
MAubrey
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


After much back and forth and then some conversation with their facebook page, I finally ended up getting one of A7rII modified.

I won't have any time to do any real tests until this weekend, but in the meantime, I opened up my window and did some tripod comparisons with my regular A7rII using two 35mm lenses, a Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 II and a Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 ZM. They're really dumb unstructured tests, but the difference is so vast that I just needed to share the results with someone.

Here's the original shot:

Original Sensor Stack CV35mm by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Yeah, not worth much.

The centers are basically identical, but with a slight edge given to the modded sensor. Here's the ZM35:

Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM Center by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

At the time I didn't have any expectation that the corners would be matter given the difference in distance, but I must have been close enough to the hyperfocal distance that it worked.

Lower left corner:

Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM Lower Left Corner by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

And again for the CV35...Center:
Voigtlander 35mm f1.2 II Center by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Lower left corner:

Voigtlander 35mm f1.2 II Lower Left Corner by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Even the Voigtlander improved dramatically, though certinaly still unuseable at f/1.2 for landscape, but of course, why would a person do that anyway?

Once I've done formal testing with a solid infinity subject across the whole frame this weekend I'll have better data, but right I'm extremely pleased.



May 11, 2018 at 09:10 AM
MAubrey
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


Okay, I had a moment this morning to do something slightly more serious.

These still aren't at infinity, but they're a much flatter subject.

Here's a comparison with the Canon FD 85mm f/1.2L on the two sensor stacks. This is a lens I didn't expect a whole lot of improvement. Yes, it was designed for fimlm, but it's also (1) a longer focal length and (2) an SLR design and that tends to negate the effects of the sensor stack. Still, I was quite pleasantly surprised by the degree that the lens improves.

Notes:
(1) Clear increase in purple fringing--likely a result of more sensitivity to the UV end of the spectrum...something to think about.
(2) Slight increase in center resolution at both f/1.2 and f/4.0.
(3) Larger increase in resolution in the midzone and corner at both f/1.2 and f/4.0.
(4) The results at f/4.0 are giving me the kind of resolution across the frame that I used to have to stop down to at least f/5.6 if not f/8.0 for. That's a big win.

Here's the scene:

Thin Sensor Stack [email protected] by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Wide Open Center:
Wide Open Center by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Wide Open Mid Zone:

Wide Open Mid Zone by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Wide Open Lower Right Corner:

Wide Open Lower Right Corner by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

f/4.0 Center:

F4 Center by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

f/4.0 Mid Zone:

F4 Mid Zone by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

f/4.0 Lower Right Corner:

F4 Lower Right Corner by Mike Aubrey, on Flickr

Full images here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-XpWprgjnoKH8diItsHxFLO7DAEjsfQH



May 11, 2018 at 01:10 PM
mcbroomf
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


Nice tests Mike, thanks. I know there was a lot of discussion on the other thread(s?), but could you post details of the mod you chose?

From what you've seen so far how is WB affected?

Thx

Mike



May 11, 2018 at 06:03 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


mcbroomf wrote:
Nice tests Mike, thanks. I know there was a lot of discussion on the other thread(s?), but could you post details of the mod you chose?

From what you've seen so far how is WB affected?

Thx

Mike

I couldn't find the other thread. I think it's now in the archive, but here are the details:
http://nkir.myqnapcloud.com/NKIR_Cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=103&product_id=85
https://www.facebook.com/NKIRStudio/

I did version 3, .75mm "extreme" which also removes the cover class itself, but we did everything via NKIR's facebook page and then paypal rather than.

As for white balance, these are all the camera's auto white balance. If I use the eye dropper they look identical, though the original stack is Temp: 5400 / Tint +9 and the thin stack is 5000 / -5. So there is a difference.



May 11, 2018 at 07:51 PM
mcbroomf
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


Thanks Mike ...


May 12, 2018 at 02:09 AM
ZoneV
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


What kind of filters do they use for the conversion?


May 14, 2018 at 06:53 AM
samlee.hk
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


MAubrey wrote:
I couldn't find the other thread. I think it's now in the archive, but here are the details:
http://nkir.myqnapcloud.com/NKIR_Cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=103&product_id=85
https://www.facebook.com/NKIRStudio/

I did version 3, .75mm "extreme" which also removes the cover class itself, but we did everything via NKIR's facebook page and then paypal rather than.

As for white balance, these are all the camera's auto white balance. If I use the eye dropper they look identical, though the original stack is Temp: 5400 / Tint +9 and the thin stack is 5000 / -5. So there is a difference.


I used NKIR mod A7R2 for 2.5 years and now used NKIR mod A7III and A7RIII
as u can see the awb very close to the original one,
Maybe u can use AWB adjustment, B1.5-0.5 , G0.5-1
for me when i use A7RII NKIR v3+ i used B1.5 G0.5
This setting will direct save in RAW file






May 14, 2018 at 08:30 PM
E1ho
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


Is Nkir v3 mode really 0.75mm? I saw his facebook page and the image he uploaded showing that v3 mode is 1.75mm. Which one is right??


Jan 27, 2020 at 11:22 AM
MAubrey
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


E1ho wrote:
Is Nkir v3 mode really 0.75mm? I saw his facebook page and the image he uploaded showing that v3 mode is 1.75mm. Which one is right??

If you're talking about this post, it say "reduced by 1.75mm."



Jan 27, 2020 at 12:10 PM
realVivek
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


E1ho wrote:
Is Nkir v3 mode really 0.75mm? I saw his facebook page and the image he uploaded showing that v3 mode is 1.75mm. Which one is right??



Based on the post quoted below, both are correct.
---------------------------------------------

MAubrey wrote:
If you're talking about this post, it say "reduced by 1.75mm."





Jan 27, 2020 at 02:33 PM
 


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E1ho
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


So total thickness is 0.75mm anyway? which is thinner than Kolari UT? I was going to have thin filter conversion but didn't decide between Kolari and Nkir. Maybe I should go for Nkir. thank you for reply.


Jan 27, 2020 at 03:59 PM
realVivek
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


Yes, that is the thinnest. Kolari works out to 0.9mm with the “UT filter”.


Jan 27, 2020 at 04:17 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


MAubrey wrote:
If you're talking about this post, it say "reduced by 1.75mm."


Huh. Forgot the link. Here it is:
NKIR Post, October, 2019

Also: It looks like my original photos are gone when I was culling flickr. I'll see if I can find them again and put them back up.



Jan 28, 2020 at 12:08 PM
CrazyLeicaFox
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


I've been talking with NKIR on Facebook and am planning to have my A7RIII modified with a thin sensor. I'm curious what, if any, problems have been encountered by MAubrey and others who have used this service. Are you all satisfied customers?

There are options for a Version 3 or Version 4. NKIR said the V3 can have problems with IR pollution causing a purple coloring in some images. The V4 then has an IR-cut membrane (of negligible thickness) that solves this, but can lead to a green cast along the edges and corners. Have any of you encountered these problems? I'm debating whether to get V3 and use IR-cut filters on my lenses as with the Leica M8, or if I should go with V4 and risk needing to post-process sometimes to remove green edges.

NKIR also talked about a service they perform to check for any dust after the new sensor stack has been installed. They use a lens at f/16 to take some pictures and then examine these on a large monitor for spots. There's also an option to pay a little extra for NKIR to use f/22 for this process. It seems strange to me that turning the aperture ring one more stop costs extra, so I'm wondering if something has been lost in translation (I don't speak Chinese). Can anyone else who has dealt with NKIR shed some light on this confusion?

Thank you in advance!



May 11, 2020 at 05:15 AM
realVivek
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


That is clearly for the service provider to answer.

If I have to speculate, I would think the f/16 vs f22 Corresponds to how clean a sensor you want back.

Opening the epoxied cover glass and replacing it with another is a very risky operation. Hence the charges.

CrazyLeicaFox wrote:
NKIR also talked about a service they perform to check for any dust after the new sensor stack has been installed. They use a lens at f/16 to take some pictures and then examine these on a large monitor for spots. There's also an option to pay a little extra for NKIR to use f/22 for this process. It seems strange to me that turning the aperture ring one more stop costs extra, so I'm wondering if something has been lost in translation (I don't speak Chinese). Can anyone else who has dealt with NKIR shed some light on this
...Show more




May 11, 2020 at 09:15 AM
AndereObjektiv
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


CrazyLeicaFox wrote:
NKIR also talked about a service they perform to check for any dust after the new sensor stack has been installed. They use a lens at f/16 to take some pictures and then examine these on a large monitor for spots. There's also an option to pay a little extra for NKIR to use f/22 for this process. It seems strange to me that turning the aperture ring one more stop costs extra, so I'm wondering if something has been lost in translation (I don't speak Chinese). Can anyone else who has dealt with NKIR shed some light on this
...Show more

While diffraction will increase with aperture values, aberration decreases in a similar arc. I would guess they are using a flat field uniform illuminant to detect micro and nano dust that may have gotten into the stack during the process. An increase to F/22 would likely involve higher output illumination that still maintains uniformity - a brighter but equally uniform light source - which would detect even finer aberrations from even smaller dust. This could easily be more expensive to calibrate, operate and maintain.

Who knows? I imagine it is a proprietary process. Good luck with your sensor glass.





May 11, 2020 at 06:34 PM
CrazyLeicaFox
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


realVivek wrote:
That is clearly for the service provider to answer.

If I have to speculate, I would think the f/16 vs f22 Corresponds to how clean a sensor you want back.

Opening the epoxied cover glass and replacing it with another is a very risky operation. Hence the charges.


I've been communicating with NKIR on these details, but some understanding is lost in translations back and forth. I was left confused about this issue and hoped those who have gone through this process could explain why f/22 is different and costs more.

The explanations from both of you make sense, that f/22 requires greater precision and necessitates more work for them to achieve. Thank you!

Now I'm just hoping for any users who tried Version 3 or Version 4 to comment on their experience with the results, and how bad is the purple or green coloring.



May 11, 2020 at 08:28 PM
CrazyLeicaFox
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


After trading some more messages with NKIR, I decided to go with the Version 3 mod. It can result in a purple cast, as mentioned by MAubrey earlier, but that can be avoided by using IR/UV cut filters.

NKIR shared a bunch of photos with me showing the results of Version 4, and the cyan edges were very obvious with all wide-angle lenses, requiring lens correction profiles. He said the IR-cut membrane refracts light coming at a steep angle, which causes the loss of red if the angle of incidence is large, even with a BSI sensor.

So I guess there's no easy solution to all of this until someone invents a type of glass that filters all UV and IR light with only a fraction of a mm thickness.



May 14, 2020 at 03:25 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


CrazyLeicaFox wrote:
After trading some more messages with NKIR, I decided to go with the Version 3 mod. It can result in a purple cast, as mentioned by MAubrey earlier, but that can be avoided by using IR/UV cut filters.

NKIR shared a bunch of photos with me showing the results of Version 4, and the cyan edges were very obvious with all wide-angle lenses, requiring lens correction profiles. He said the IR-cut membrane refracts light coming at a steep angle, which causes the loss of red if the angle of incidence is large, even with a BSI sensor.

So I guess
...Show more


I had debated going this route, but opted for the Kolari Vision UT (Ultra Thin) sensor modification for my A7rII. This was performed in February of this year. Vivek and I had discussed which option to go prior to performing the modification. To both of our shock and surprise, at the time, Kolari Vision performed the modification and returned the camera to me in a week.

Rich



May 14, 2020 at 07:44 AM
CrazyLeicaFox
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · NKIR Thin Filter Mod - A7rII


naturephoto1 wrote:
I had debated going this route, but opted for the Kolari Vision UT (Ultra Thin) sensor modification for my A7rII. This was performed in February of this year. Vivek and I had discussed which option to go prior to performing the modification. To both of our shock and surprise, at the time, Kolari Vision performed the modification and returned the camera to me in a week.

Rich


I remember reading that thread. I think that's also where someone (Vivek?) talked about doing their own sensor mod that reduced the stack thickness to just 0.7mm.

Here's a page all about the NKIR version 3 mod:
https://medium.com/攝影二三事/sonya7thinfiltermod-8276254606ba
Edit: for some reason fredmiranda.com doesn't like links, and you'll have to copy/paste this to get it to work.

That page is in Chinese, but my browser extension translator did a decent job, and the most important information is the pictures. I have many of the lenses he mentions there. Among my collection of rangefinder lenses is the Contax G 21 and 28; Zeiss ZM 15/2.8, 18/4, 21/4.5, 35/2.8, and 35/1.4; Leica SEM 21, Elmar-M 24, 28/2.8 ASPH, and 50 Summilux ASPH; and lots more, including film SLR lenses like the Canon 85/1.2 shown above by MAubrey.

Given that my focus is so totally on rangefinder and film lenses, I'm aiming for the very thinnest mod possible. It's quite possible I'll regret it later when I have to fiddle with IR-cut filters all the time, but right now, I figure the extra 0.15mm reduction below the 0.9mm offered by Kolari is worth it.



May 15, 2020 at 04:47 AM
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