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Archive 2018Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
p.9 #1Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Fred Miranda wrote:
It looks like many more Loxia lenses are coming after the Loxia 25/2.4.
Key points I noticed: Loxia is an "important line to Zeiss" and "one of the best selling lines they've ever had." More Loxia are coming, but not soon since the 25mm just came out. Milvus line is now complete (therefore won't compete internally for resources).
Mar 10, 2018 at 02:26 PM
p.9 #2Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Parariss wrote:
Key points I noticed: Loxia is an "important line to Zeiss" and "one of the best selling lines they've ever had." More Loxia are coming, but not soon since the 25mm just came out. Milvus line is now complete (therefore won't compete internally for resources).
Yes, also means the Milvus line may not get a 28mm.
Fred Miranda wrote
It looks like many more Loxia lenses are coming after the Loxia 25/2.4.Yes, also means the Milvus line may not get a 28mm.
Mar 10, 2018 at 02:39 PM
p.9 #3Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Sounds like an altogether different lenses to those tested copies, rvh. It seriously whips the C/N competition at the lensrentals site test, and does so where it matters in a fast 24mm - in the fat center. Most of these have curvature somewhere in the aperture range. I like Sigma's performance and design choices much more than Roger does.
For fine detail, it's a 15% stronger lens and suffers no worse in the outer frames. TBH, it near disgraces its esteemed competition. As I said however, very different intent to these classes of lens .. you are at the 2nd/3rd tier usage when using one of the f1.4s for landscapes. The D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven, I doubt anything comes close actually, looking at CZ's MTF levels and patterns. Anything that fits/works that is, the Leica 24/3.8 is certainly comparable. [The Milvus 25mm looks to have outer field f1.4 strangeness too.]
Some Loxia 21s may hit the market soon when people get to see what the MTF persuasively describes - unless people really need 21mm. This is the lens CZ should have made earlier than the L21, but 21mm is quite a fixation for them.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/04/just-the-lenses-sigma-24-f1-4-art-comparison/
PS The Loxia 25/2.4 ships: *March 28*.
For fine detail, it's a 15% stronger lens and suffers no worse in the outer frames. TBH, it near disgraces its esteemed competition. As I said however, very different intent to these classes of lens .. you are at the 2nd/3rd tier usage when using one of the f1.4s for landscapes. The D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven, I doubt anything comes close actually, looking at CZ's MTF levels and patterns. Anything that fits/works that is, the Leica 24/3.8 is certainly comparable. [The Milvus 25mm looks to have outer field f1.4 strangeness too.]
Some Loxia 21s may hit the market soon when people get to see what the MTF persuasively describes - unless people really need 21mm. This is the lens CZ should have made earlier than the L21, but 21mm is quite a fixation for them.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/04/just-the-lenses-sigma-24-f1-4-art-comparison/
PS The Loxia 25/2.4 ships: *March 28*.
Mar 10, 2018 at 02:42 PM
p.9 #4Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, also means the Milvus line may not get a 28mm.
I don't like 25mm, it does not work with my vision. 28mm instead is natural and also works better with polarizer which I use almost 100% of my shots.
I don't like the ZE/ZF 2/28 for boke shooting, the outward field curvature ruins this lens (it has it even with thin sensor cover glass). So it seems that there will be no fast 28mm Zeiss available for some time (except Otus).
I searched and found "substitute" today and changed Zeiss G35 to secondhand Sigma Art 24-35mm f/2. I most likely don't like it's rendering style on long run, but I'll try it. Then I most likely get Nikon 28mm f/1.4 and Commlite adapter. Finally I will give up and buy the Otus 28... Sometimes I wonder why I always need to take the longest road
Samuli
Yes, also means the Milvus line may not get a 28mm.
I don't like 25mm, it does not work with my vision. 28mm instead is natural and also works better with polarizer which I use almost 100% of my shots. I don't like the ZE/ZF 2/28 for boke shooting, the outward field curvature ruins this lens (it has it even with thin sensor cover glass). So it seems that there will be no fast 28mm Zeiss available for some time (except Otus).
I searched and found "substitute" today and changed Zeiss G35 to secondhand Sigma Art 24-35mm f/2. I most likely don't like it's rendering style on long run, but I'll try it. Then I most likely get Nikon 28mm f/1.4 and Commlite adapter. Finally I will give up and buy the Otus 28... Sometimes I wonder why I always need to take the longest road
Samuli
Mar 10, 2018 at 04:02 PM
p.9 #5Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Philip, I agree that the Sigma is likely better than the Nikon, Canon, and Samyang, which are compared at lensrentals, but my point is that all of those lenses used on Sony fall short of the Loxia 21. The Zeiss Classic 25/2 almost matches it, except at the far edges and corners. The only adapted lens that gets close enough across the full frame for my purposes, and in mid regions may be even better than the Loxia, is the new Milvus 25. Although I don't shoot at 1.4 for landscapes (or even astro) it is nice to have access to that aperture for composition in very low light. The main reason I have looked so long and hard for an adapted 24-25 that works well on A7R is because I use it on a tilt adapter. If it weren't for that, the Loxia 25 would be a no brainer for me. I will be trying very hard to resist buying it in addition to the Milvus. 
Mar 10, 2018 at 08:07 PM
p.9 #6Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
philip_pj wrote:
...
PS The Loxia 25/2.4 ships: *March 28*.
It's been already sold/shipping in Japan market since 1st of March. It's unusual for Loxia to ship earlier in Japan but it happened this time... Didn't go for it though since I already have Batis 25mm, and no need to switch.
Mar 10, 2018 at 08:32 PM
p.9 #7Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
How useful would a road map have been to the user community who, in the flurry of new lenses, must second guess what is coming and not coming? I've never understood it.
The Loxia 25mm deserves to be a big hit, and if people like the L21 outer frames they are going to be seriously impressed. It won't even need a profile (for those using older PS vsns) and the lines meet up at the wide edges like they should (an optical fix), sparing users the wild astigmatism that gives rise to the curvature of the Loxia 21mm. It's still there in the 25mm but very muted - and it bottoms late so won't be noticed. I bet it also has reasonable bokeh at f2.4, very settled MTF wide open. I'm a little gun-shy of new Zeiss color (a key secret to image depth), so should be able to avoid buying in. But we'll soon see.
The Loxia 25mm deserves to be a big hit, and if people like the L21 outer frames they are going to be seriously impressed. It won't even need a profile (for those using older PS vsns) and the lines meet up at the wide edges like they should (an optical fix), sparing users the wild astigmatism that gives rise to the curvature of the Loxia 21mm. It's still there in the 25mm but very muted - and it bottoms late so won't be noticed. I bet it also has reasonable bokeh at f2.4, very settled MTF wide open. I'm a little gun-shy of new Zeiss color (a key secret to image depth), so should be able to avoid buying in. But we'll soon see.
Mar 10, 2018 at 08:35 PM
p.9 #8Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
philip_pj wrote:
The D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven, I doubt anything comes close actually, looking at CZ's MTF levels and patterns
Philip, I'm not sure which lens you meant re: "D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven" - Milvus 25/1.4 or the new Loxia? I've looked at the MTF charts for both awhile ago, but my skills at that are far below yours. From what I'm determining, it looks like the Milvus has higher resolution, but otherwise I'm none too sure.
I had decided awhile ago that I'd get the Milvus 25 to replace my ZE 25/2, not only for landscape but also for the closeup, wide-open flower work that I frequently do; therefore, I do want 1.4 for the latter. I also want the best choice for landscape. I've been a little leery to take the plunge, though, since I keep thinking that it won't be long before a new E-mount series is unleashed, unlimited by the size constraints of Loxiae, and then I'll be annoyed that I bought the large and expensive Milvus. Meanwhile, the new Loxia sounds good for a "walkabout" lens for landscape...
The D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven, I doubt anything comes close actually, looking at CZ's MTF levels and patterns
Philip, I'm not sure which lens you meant re: "D25 is your ticket to landscape heaven" - Milvus 25/1.4 or the new Loxia? I've looked at the MTF charts for both awhile ago, but my skills at that are far below yours. From what I'm determining, it looks like the Milvus has higher resolution, but otherwise I'm none too sure.
I had decided awhile ago that I'd get the Milvus 25 to replace my ZE 25/2, not only for landscape but also for the closeup, wide-open flower work that I frequently do; therefore, I do want 1.4 for the latter. I also want the best choice for landscape. I've been a little leery to take the plunge, though, since I keep thinking that it won't be long before a new E-mount series is unleashed, unlimited by the size constraints of Loxiae, and then I'll be annoyed that I bought the large and expensive Milvus. Meanwhile, the new Loxia sounds good for a "walkabout" lens for landscape...
Mar 10, 2018 at 10:04 PM
p.9 #9Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.
Mar 10, 2018 at 10:45 PM
p.9 #10Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
nandadevieast wrote:
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.
I believe Loxias are Zeiss designs manufactured by Cosina.
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.
I believe Loxias are Zeiss designs manufactured by Cosina.
Mar 10, 2018 at 11:05 PM
p.9 #11Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Fred Miranda wrote:
nandadevieast wrote
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.That would make sense since Cosina is manufacturing and distributing (in Japan) Zeiss M-mount lenses and SLR lenses (Nikon and Canon mounts, including Otus, Milvus, Classic), but Cosina is not distributor of Loxia, Batis or Touit in Japan and I think there's not been any clear evidence about whether Cosina is manufacturing Loxia (though many believe they are).
Mar 10, 2018 at 11:11 PM
p.9 #12Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
nandadevieast wrote:
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.
I don't think we "know" that Batis are Tamron.
Its pretty clear that they are manufactured by Tamron (to a higher spec than their own lenses)
It's also clear that they have patents in their name (which also makes sense because they have to do some of the detailed design because of the opto-mechanics of AF lenses which is not an area Zeiss has in-house expertise.
But we know from detailed interviews with Zeiss that they have long in-house conversations about the designs in Oberkochen before the prototype stages, and that they test the prototypes and make alterations before the final design goes to production.
One such interview I read was about the 18, in which the guy who heads Batis was fighting with the other people in the photographic lens division, because he favoured a four aspherical surface design over other designs with fewer that th other people thought would be more consistency manufacturable.
Now maybe the first draft designs, or the candidates come from Tamron, but that just means that they run the lens design software. And that's not what matters: what matters is the overall specifying, the style of design that's wanted, the compromises made or not made, and I think it fairly likely (but I'm not at all certain) that that all happens in house at Zeiss.
Not of course that any of this matters: it's the final lenses that matter.
Who designs Loxi? Is it Cosina? I know Batis are Tamron lenses.
I don't think we "know" that Batis are Tamron.
Its pretty clear that they are manufactured by Tamron (to a higher spec than their own lenses)
It's also clear that they have patents in their name (which also makes sense because they have to do some of the detailed design because of the opto-mechanics of AF lenses which is not an area Zeiss has in-house expertise.
But we know from detailed interviews with Zeiss that they have long in-house conversations about the designs in Oberkochen before the prototype stages, and that they test the prototypes and make alterations before the final design goes to production.
One such interview I read was about the 18, in which the guy who heads Batis was fighting with the other people in the photographic lens division, because he favoured a four aspherical surface design over other designs with fewer that th other people thought would be more consistency manufacturable.
Now maybe the first draft designs, or the candidates come from Tamron, but that just means that they run the lens design software. And that's not what matters: what matters is the overall specifying, the style of design that's wanted, the compromises made or not made, and I think it fairly likely (but I'm not at all certain) that that all happens in house at Zeiss.
Not of course that any of this matters: it's the final lenses that matter.
Mar 10, 2018 at 11:22 PM
Mar 14, 2018 at 05:55 PM
p.9 #14Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Have Zeiss published a distortion graph? These look flawless so I'm guessing they have been corrected in-camera.
rvh23 wrote:
I noticed some early example images here
rvh23 wrote:
I noticed some early example images here
Mar 15, 2018 at 02:25 PM
p.9 #15Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
From the published pdf: "The relative distortion shows in percent the deviation of the actual from the ideal image height.
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
Mar 15, 2018 at 02:55 PM
p.9 #16Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
rvh23 wrote:
Given the internet hype about it, my experience with the Sigma 24 1.4 for landscape applications was disappointing on A7R/II, even with carefully shimmed adapters. I sometimes saw substantial CA that didn't always clean up well, and noticeably softer corners even at F8. My experience agrees with the MTF curves shown at the the digital picture (click on the drop-down box to see f8).
I would say that the Sigma is a decent lens for the money, but if you want high IQ across the entire frame, it doesn't come close to the Loxia 21 (and likely even less...Show more →
I would never expect a 1.4 lens to be a good performer for landscapes. I would think lenses of that aperture would be optimized for shooting at medium to close distances. Editorial or lifestyle photography shooting where the 1.4 speed has a great look under available light. I'm guessing the Loxia line was designed with landscapes, architecture and product photography in mind. I guess for video also even though the lenses are quite small for follow focus. Looking forward to this lens performance in the real world.
Given the internet hype about it, my experience with the Sigma 24 1.4 for landscape applications was disappointing on A7R/II, even with carefully shimmed adapters. I sometimes saw substantial CA that didn't always clean up well, and noticeably softer corners even at F8. My experience agrees with the MTF curves shown at the the digital picture (click on the drop-down box to see f8).
I would say that the Sigma is a decent lens for the money, but if you want high IQ across the entire frame, it doesn't come close to the Loxia 21 (and likely even less...Show more →
I would never expect a 1.4 lens to be a good performer for landscapes. I would think lenses of that aperture would be optimized for shooting at medium to close distances. Editorial or lifestyle photography shooting where the 1.4 speed has a great look under available light. I'm guessing the Loxia line was designed with landscapes, architecture and product photography in mind. I guess for video also even though the lenses are quite small for follow focus. Looking forward to this lens performance in the real world.
Mar 15, 2018 at 03:23 PM
p.9 #17Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
rvh23 wrote:
From the published pdf: "The relative distortion shows in percent the deviation of the actual from the ideal image height.
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
Looks like about 1/3 less than the Loxia 21 and without the moustache curls at the edges, before correction. Not sure about how it compares to the Batis 25 without correction (Zeiss datasheet only shows the corrected distortion).
WTB: Loxia 28
From the published pdf: "The relative distortion shows in percent the deviation of the actual from the ideal image height.
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
Looks like about 1/3 less than the Loxia 21 and without the moustache curls at the edges, before correction. Not sure about how it compares to the Batis 25 without correction (Zeiss datasheet only shows the corrected distortion).
WTB: Loxia 28
Mar 15, 2018 at 04:18 PM
p.9 #18Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Parariss wrote:
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."Looks like about 1/3 less than the Loxia 21 and without the moustache curls at the edges, before correction. Not sure about how it compares to the Batis 25 without correction (Zeiss datasheet only shows the corrected distortion).
WTB: Loxia 28
Here is a link that contains the uncorrected distortion curve for the Batis 25:
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150429_0952-ZeissBatis-25f2-MTF.html
It is a bit worse than the Loxia 25, but not quite as bad as the Loxia 21. The Batis starts showing distortion a little earlier in the frame and has a bit more distortion with a bit of mustache near the corners. Still the Batis 25 is pretty good. Just not as good as the Loxia 25.
rvh23 wrote
From the published pdf: "The relative distortion shows in percent the deviation of the actual from the ideal image height.Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
WTB: Loxia 28
Here is a link that contains the uncorrected distortion curve for the Batis 25:
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150429_0952-ZeissBatis-25f2-MTF.html
It is a bit worse than the Loxia 25, but not quite as bad as the Loxia 21. The Batis starts showing distortion a little earlier in the frame and has a bit more distortion with a bit of mustache near the corners. Still the Batis 25 is pretty good. Just not as good as the Loxia 25.
Mar 15, 2018 at 04:42 PM
p.9 #19Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
Steve Spencer wrote:
Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."Looks like about 1/3 less than the Loxia 21 and without the moustache curls at the edges, before correction. Not sure about how it compares to the Batis 25 without correction (Zeiss datasheet only shows the corrected distortion).
WTB: Loxia 28Here is a link that contains the uncorrected distortion curve for the Batis 25:
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150429_0952-ZeissBatis-25f2-MTF.html
It is a bit worse than the Loxia 25, but not quite as bad as the Loxia 21. The Batis starts showing distortion a little earlier in the frame and has a bit more distortion with a bit of mustache near the corners. Still the Batis 25 is pretty good. Just not as good as the Loxia 25.
Cool, thanks. Batis 25 MTF trails the pack wide open, but maybe it would catch up (almost?) if it were stopped down to equal apertures.
Parariss wrote
rvh23 wrote
From the published pdf: "The relative distortion shows in percent the deviation of the actual from the ideal image height.Data for object distance of 0.80 m (β = 1:30)."
WTB: Loxia 28
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150429_0952-ZeissBatis-25f2-MTF.html
It is a bit worse than the Loxia 25, but not quite as bad as the Loxia 21. The Batis starts showing distortion a little earlier in the frame and has a bit more distortion with a bit of mustache near the corners. Still the Batis 25 is pretty good. Just not as good as the Loxia 25.
Cool, thanks. Batis 25 MTF trails the pack wide open, but maybe it would catch up (almost?) if it were stopped down to equal apertures.
Mar 15, 2018 at 05:27 PM
p.9 #20Zeiss Loxia 25mm f2.4 is a distagon
stevesanacore wrote:
I would never expect a 1.4 lens to be a good performer for landscapes. I would think lenses of that aperture would be optimized for shooting at medium to close distances. Editorial or lifestyle photography shooting where the 1.4 speed has a great look under available light.
I don't think that's necessarily so these days. Certainly not in the case of the MIlvus 25 1.4 which is clearly designed with lanscapes in mind also. The very first lines of that lens' description on the Zeiss website are:
"Capturing perfect moments with exquisite detail is what this lens is all about. No matter if you are photographing landscapes or architectural features, the outstanding edge-to-edge quality ensures impressive results."
I would never expect a 1.4 lens to be a good performer for landscapes. I would think lenses of that aperture would be optimized for shooting at medium to close distances. Editorial or lifestyle photography shooting where the 1.4 speed has a great look under available light.
I don't think that's necessarily so these days. Certainly not in the case of the MIlvus 25 1.4 which is clearly designed with lanscapes in mind also. The very first lines of that lens' description on the Zeiss website are:
"Capturing perfect moments with exquisite detail is what this lens is all about. No matter if you are photographing landscapes or architectural features, the outstanding edge-to-edge quality ensures impressive results."
Mar 15, 2018 at 05:39 PM