p.2 #1 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
noborg wrote:
Hi Mystik (or anyone else please) - have you had a chance to check and see if the viewfinder/screen freezes between shutter actuations when shooting continuously with mechanical shutter?
Thanks
js
Yeah no freezes between shots for me. Do you have electronic first curtain shutter on or off? Camera menu 2, window 4.
p.2 #2 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
Yeah no freezes between shots for me. Do you have electronic first curtain shutter on or off? Camera menu 2, window 4.
It was on; I think turning it off made a slight difference (but hard to tell). Good thinking though, as it led me towards what I think is going on. I believe it has to do with the difference in a mechanical shutter design in a mirrorless vs. a DSLR, and it also depends on focal length.
If you have a moment, try setting the shutter speed to 1/10 and panning quickly while shooting at maximum speed. What I see is an unambiguous image freeze between shots, but only after the first shot. During the first shot, there's a blackout. After that, during each exposure I see still the image that resulted from the previous shot. Actually, the still image is displayed for longer than the exposure, as there's some mechanical time and electronic switching time involved. The effect is focal-length dependent because the longer the focal length, the more the image changes from one exposure to the next.
In the case of a DSLR, there's no frozen image. Instead, you get a blackout during the time the mirror is up, i.e. for the length of the exposure plus a bit of mechanical time.
So with a mirrorless mechanical shutter, you get one frozen image per shot, which for the A9 means 5 frozen images per second. In the case of the 1DxII you get 12 blackouts a second, with a continuous image in between. The human eye is very good at interpolating images (which is how movies work), and that's why it looks so smooth with the 1DxII (it feels like watching an ancient movie). The eye is also very good at detecting stuttering images, and with the A9 they appear at a much slower rate than the 1DXII blackouts (5 fps vs. 12 fps). That's what I've been noticing.
Above, I suggested an experiment at 1/10 sec. But I think you'll see it at faster (more normal) shutter speeds if you pan very quickly with a long lens. Basically, I believe you're seeing one frozen image every 1/5 second - the faster you pan, and the longer the lens, the greater will be the visual difference between subsequent frozen images.
p.2 #3 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
noborg wrote:
Hi Mystik (or anyone else please) - have you had a chance to check and see if the viewfinder/screen freezes between shutter actuations when shooting continuously with mechanical shutter?
p.2 #4 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
I use back button AF so I know when I the shutter is firing because that is the only reason I press the shutter button.
I just shot 2500 images in a 100' show @ 20 fps. I got shot ps I never could have gotten with my D5 bodies. I have my shot indicator set for the 4 "Blinkies" at the frame corners. Also, if I look closely, the VF images changes, slightly, when the (electronic) shutter fires. Maybe this is just familiarization and trailing?
I have yet to use the mechanical shutter. If I want a mechanical shutter (and flash) I would use my D5. Also I use, primarily, ISO 12.800. If you are shooting in even lower light I suggest fast primes.
p.2 #5 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
SoundHound wrote:
I use back button AF so I know when I the shutter is firing because that is the only reason I press the shutter button.
I just shot 2500 images in a 100' show @ 20 fps. I got shot ps I never could have gotten with my D5 bodies. I have my shot indicator set for the 4 "Blinkies" at the frame corners. Also, if I look closely, the VF images changes, slightly, when the (electronic) shutter fires. Maybe this is just familiarization and trailing?
I have yet to use the mechanical shutter. If I want a mechanical shutter (and flash) I would use my D5. Also I use, primarily, ISO 12.800. If you are shooting in even lower light I suggest fast primes....Show more →
Thanks for the input. I also use back button AF. But I really-miss getting a sense for how many continuous shots I'm taking when I press the shutter. The blinkies would help if I could see them easily, but that's often not possible (without a lot of distracting concentration) when shooting live music in fast-changing lighting conditions. I'd like it if Sony offered an additional notification option that was more intrusive.
High ISO is the only reason I've been trying the mechanical shutter. I have fast primes, but they don't solve the problem when there's fast action in low light - AF just isn't that reliable and the DOF is too narrow even if well focused (there are exceptions, of course). Also, much of the time I need a zoom because mobility is limited.
In time, I presume we'll have higher ISO with electronic shutters (it would be great if that's a firmware change, but I doubt it). Just making 51K the upper bound would be satisfactory most of the time (that's what I have set as max on my 1DxII), and I'd be happy to stick with the e-shutter if that were the case. You're likely right about familiarization - I'm sure I'd adapt wrt my issues about knowing when the shutter fires.
Since 51K that's not an expanded ISO (like 100K and 200K), it doesn't seem like a stretch. It would be interesting to know why the electronic shutter is ISO limited at 25K.
I know I'm coming across as bashing the A9, but here I've just been trying to work around the one issue that limits how much I can use it. In fact I love most things about the A9 vs. my 1DxII, and I'm already using the A9 a lot. I'd be open to switching entirely to Sony, but the A9 isn't quite there yet.
p.2 #6 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
For the shutter sound try page 214 on the manual. "Custom Operation2," "Audio signals" then choose "On, e-shutter only." You will get a subtle shutter sound.
If it's not a sound storm concert you can hear it to gauge your exposures.
p.2 #8 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
I Borrowed an A9 from Sony on Friday at Silverstone practice for the F1 Race. Based in Brooklands Hospitality just before the corner of that name.
At first it had silent shooting, and just a green dot when the shutter was pressed. I was helped to get the E shutter sound. But can understand the OP because this was drowned out at times.
The A9 is amazing for following focus on these cars. Also power on and shot, makes my A7II look lethargic.
The EVF is also so much better too.
I got more keepers by locating myself at Copse corner, for the second practice, with the a7II! Just shows location is more important than the kit. I will keep telling myself that, as the A9 is equivalent to the cost of my last thee camera bodies.
p.2 #9 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
noborg wrote:
Thanks for the input. I also use back button AF. But I really-miss getting a sense for how many continuous shots I'm taking when I press the shutter. The blinkies would help if I could see them easily, but that's often not possible (without a lot of distracting concentration) when shooting live music in fast-changing lighting conditions. I'd like it if Sony offered an additional notification option that was more intrusive.
High ISO is the only reason I've been trying the mechanical shutter. I have fast primes, but they don't solve the problem when there's fast action in low light - AF just isn't that reliable and the DOF is too narrow even if well focused (there are exceptions, of course). Also, much of the time I need a zoom because mobility is limited.
In time, I presume we'll have higher ISO with electronic shutters (it would be great if that's a firmware change, but I doubt it). Just making 51K the upper bound would be satisfactory most of the time (that's what I have set as max on my 1DxII), and I'd be happy to stick with the e-shutter if that were the case. You're likely right about familiarization - I'm sure I'd adapt wrt my issues about knowing when the shutter fires.
Since 51K that's not an expanded ISO (like 100K and 200K), it doesn't seem like a stretch. It would be interesting to know why the electronic shutter is ISO limited at 25K.
I know I'm coming across as bashing the A9, but here I've just been trying to work around the one issue that limits how much I can use it. In fact I love most things about the A9 vs. my 1DxII, and I'm already using the A9 a lot. I'd be open to switching entirely to Sony, but the A9 isn't quite there yet.
If high ISO cap is the main reason you're using the mechanical shutter, then simply underexpose your shots by 1-2 (or more). Sony cameras are basically ISO invariant at high past mid ISO ranges....so there's no difference in noise between getting the exposure correct in the field and pushing the exposure in post. I actually shoot with a -2EC on most of my shots because its impossible to recover highlights if you blow them, but the shadows can be cleanly recovered in post. This is one of the things unique to Sony that I would never have done on Canon.
p.2 #10 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
Mystik wrote:
If high ISO cap is the main reason you're using the mechanical shutter, then simply underexpose your shots by 1-2 (or more). Sony cameras are basically ISO invariant at high past mid ISO ranges....so there's no difference in noise between getting the exposure correct in the field and pushing the exposure in post. I actually shoot with a -2EC on most of my shots because its impossible to recover highlights if you blow them, but the shadows can be cleanly recovered in post. This is one of the things unique to Sony that I would never have done on Canon.
_Was_ unique to Sony. Nikon, Fuji, using Sony sensors, can do the same, as can Canon with 5div and 1dxii. I do that with the 5div, too, btw. If you look at the Dpreview DR test of the A9, one can see that the A9 sensor doesn't behave as well as other Sony sensors, like that in the A7rii or D810, for example (similar to the 1dxii, better than the D5): https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a9-full-review/6 .
p.2 #11 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
Holger wrote:
_Was_ unique to Sony. Nikon, Fuji, using Sony sensors, can do the same, as can Canon with 5div and 1dxii. I do that with the 5div, too, btw. If you look at the Dpreview DR test of the A9, one can see that the A9 sensor doesn't behave as well as other Sony sensors, like that in the A7rii or D810, for example (similar to the 1dxii, better than the D5): https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a9-full-review/6 .
Regarding shooting at -2EC (workaround for e-shutter ISO limit) - As I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, that more-or-less works (with caveats about sharpness and color accuracy), but it's not a good solution for burst shooting because of the much-increased workload in post. I'd love to know why the e-shutter is ISO-limited. Even bumping it to 51K would help a lot.
p.2 #12 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
freaklikeme wrote:
Do you have image review enabled? That would explain the freezes.
Actually, image review doesn't explain the the freezes when shooting with the mechanical shutter. I have image review off. As I documented elsewhere in this thread, the freezing with the mechanical shutter is quite basic - during a given exposure, the display shows the image obtained from the previous exposure.
p.2 #13 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
SoundHound wrote:
For the shutter sound try page 214 on the manual. "Custom Operation2," "Audio signals" then choose "On, e-shutter only." You will get a subtle shutter sound.
If it's not a sound storm concert you can hear it to gauge your exposures.
Most of the live music I shoot is loud - no way to hear the subtle shutter sound. Indeed, I can't hear the 1DxII mechanical shutter - I rely on the blackouts and on the physical vibration.
BTW, this points out another way that Sony could provide an option to compensate for the occasional disadvantages of the electronic shutter. In addition to more intrusive visual feedback, they could provide haptic feedback - i.e., not only a synthetic shutter sound, but an accompanying vibration. If you're aghast at such a suggestion, think about the very-useful haptic feedback that's in iphone 7 and 7+.
p.2 #14 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
I'm not aghast just a problem that I don't have since I can see the in VF four "blinkies" (actually 3 since I keep the histogram on the lower right. You do know about the single frame blackout option at start up?
Might you depend on the vibration of the Canon while it shoots? This vibration can't be good for IQ or that matter durability. Maybe the A9 MkII or when Nikcanon copies Sony?
p.2 #15 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
Thanks for the response. I often can't see the blinkies in the lighting conditions I routinely shoot in. Yes, as I said, I do sometimes depend on the Canon's vibration (which isn't an IQ or durability problem). Regardless, haptic feedback would do the trick and would have minimal side effects). That would be a big change to the A8 so isn't likely. But my issues would be addressed by more-intrusive blinkies and a burst-count limit. Yes, I do know about the single-frame blackout on start up, but that doesn't help at all (I know when the first shot happens, it's the rest of them....).
p.2 #17 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
maestrofilms wrote:
If you want blackout and vibration when you shoot, the A9 is not the camera for you. Simple as that.
Sorry, but it's not the simple. I don't WANT blackout and vibration, what I want is to know when and how often the shutter is firing. And I want to avoid having to download and deal with a slew of unwanted images - e.g., if I'm half a second slow in releasing the shutter, I don't want to have to put up with another 10 images in my workflow.
If you really think that these things mean the camera isn't for me, then you disagree with Sony. As a pro shooting action with a 1DxMarkII, I'm squarely in Sony's target market. The A9 is close, and I'm going to love shooting with it much of the time. But it has some rough edges; I think they could be easily remedied, in which case I'd be a good candidate for switching entirely.
p.2 #18 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
noborg wrote:
Sorry, but it's not the simple. I don't WANT blackout and vibration, what I want is to know when and how often the shutter is firing. And I want to avoid having to download and deal with a slew of unwanted images - e.g., if I'm half a second slow in releasing the shutter, I don't want to have to put up with another 10 images in my workflow.
If you really think that these things mean the camera isn't for me, then you disagree with Sony. As a pro shooting action with a 1DxMarkII, I'm squarely in Sony's target market. The A9 is close, and I'm going to love shooting with it much of the time. But it has some rough edges; I think they could be easily remedied, in which case I'd be a good candidate for switching entirely.
js ...Show more →
Why in God's name are you shooting at 20fps and have unwanted shots...just use a slower fps and you will not have so many shots. Just 'cause you can doesn't mean you have too.
p.2 #19 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
noborg wrote:
Actually, image review doesn't explain the the freezes when shooting with the mechanical shutter. I have image review off. As I documented elsewhere in this thread, the freezing with the mechanical shutter is quite basic - during a given exposure, the display shows the image obtained from the previous exposure.
js
Yeah my a7rII did that as well... when I had auto review enabled. With it disabled, it just goes back to LV after the shutter is released.
p.2 #20 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled
Every camera has rough edges. The camera tells you easily when it's taking pictures. If 20 fps is adding too many shots to your workflow, shoot less fps.
Or just stick with Canon. They're both great.
noborg wrote:
Sorry, but it's not the simple. I don't WANT blackout and vibration, what I want is to know when and how often the shutter is firing. And I want to avoid having to download and deal with a slew of unwanted images - e.g., if I'm half a second slow in releasing the shutter, I don't want to have to put up with another 10 images in my workflow.
If you really think that these things mean the camera isn't for me, then you disagree with Sony. As a pro shooting action with a 1DxMarkII, I'm squarely in Sony's target market. The A9 is close, and I'm going to love shooting with it much of the time. But it has some rough edges; I think they could be easily remedied, in which case I'd be a good candidate for switching entirely.
