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Archive 2017Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
p.3 #1Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
r.gil wrote:
Shooting into the Sun...what a brilliant idea...
Reminds me of the guy who drove his car at 120m/h into a brick wall and then he was complaining that the radiator was leaking antifreeze....
This is a garbage contrast to make and fanboying at it's finest. This is unacceptable for this sensor, period.
Shooting into the Sun...what a brilliant idea...
Reminds me of the guy who drove his car at 120m/h into a brick wall and then he was complaining that the radiator was leaking antifreeze....
This is a garbage contrast to make and fanboying at it's finest. This is unacceptable for this sensor, period.
May 27, 2017 at 03:27 PM
p.3 #2Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
FYI, I just analyzed the A9 dpreview raw inside RawDigger. The banding is limited to the Blue+Green 2 channels, which based on the R+G/B+G2 bayer layout coincides with the issue being specific to certain sensor rows, likely the rows which have PDAF sensors on them.
Here is an animated GIF I created of the 4 channels showing a 100% crop from each channel:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3Hp9VMr/0/7f645918/O/i-3Hp9VMr.gif
Here is an animated GIF I created of the 4 channels showing a 100% crop from each channel:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3Hp9VMr/0/7f645918/O/i-3Hp9VMr.gif
May 27, 2017 at 03:30 PM
p.3 #3Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Great work. Hopefully this can be treated via firmware.
May 27, 2017 at 03:32 PM
p.3 #4Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Photography forums should have a car analogy forum.
Its more like driving at 70-75mph and finding there is a frequency match that makes the steering wheel resonate. It is something that only affects a specific usage condition and also something that should have been looked at in testing.
Back to the real world... if it is only as bad as the A7RII, wouldn't put me off, very hard to induce, better not to shoot so far over and push. On the A6000 I found it far more easily and at £4500 rather than £400 that wouldn't be something I could buy.
Andrew
Its more like driving at 70-75mph and finding there is a frequency match that makes the steering wheel resonate. It is something that only affects a specific usage condition and also something that should have been looked at in testing.
Back to the real world... if it is only as bad as the A7RII, wouldn't put me off, very hard to induce, better not to shoot so far over and push. On the A6000 I found it far more easily and at £4500 rather than £400 that wouldn't be something I could buy.
Andrew
May 27, 2017 at 03:40 PM
p.3 #5Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
As a quick test, I grabbed my A7RII + 85/1.4GM and took a backlit picture.
Handheld at 1/25s.
I can see banding lines at ISO 100 on the image...Only one test and one image was needed...where was the revolt about A7RII banding at base ISO?
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magnified detail on the right side
Handheld at 1/25s.
I can see banding lines at ISO 100 on the image...Only one test and one image was needed...where was the revolt about A7RII banding at base ISO?
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magnified detail on the right side
May 27, 2017 at 06:01 PM
p.3 #6Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Fred Miranda wrote:
As a quick test, I grabbed my A7RII + 85/1.4GM and took a backlit picture.
Handheld at 1/25s
I can see banding lines at ISO 100 on the image...Only one test and one image was needed...where was the revolt about A7RII banding at base ISO?
Ah, Fred, you've suddenly made every image taken with an A7rII worthless! That must mean billions of dollars of destroyed value. Photographers will be starving on the streets!
It is however something that, ideally, Sony would fix. But I rather they left it alone than applied some algorithm which might make things worse! It's possible it's the price of PDAF on sensor, if that turns out to be the cause. Anyone tried this on the original A7r?
As a quick test, I grabbed my A7RII + 85/1.4GM and took a backlit picture.
Handheld at 1/25s
I can see banding lines at ISO 100 on the image...Only one test and one image was needed...where was the revolt about A7RII banding at base ISO?
Ah, Fred, you've suddenly made every image taken with an A7rII worthless! That must mean billions of dollars of destroyed value. Photographers will be starving on the streets!
It is however something that, ideally, Sony would fix. But I rather they left it alone than applied some algorithm which might make things worse! It's possible it's the price of PDAF on sensor, if that turns out to be the cause. Anyone tried this on the original A7r?
May 27, 2017 at 06:07 PM
p.3 #7Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
As with any gear, now that we know the limits of the A9, it makes sense to use it within these reasonable limits, no?
May 28, 2017 at 01:17 AM
p.3 #8Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Funny, Lloyd's first example did not have strong backlit object, it still had line pattern. And in the end, if PDAF causes this, then the tech is not ready for prime time. It is completely bonkers that suddenly with Sony product with such artifacts are just fine vs. Canon got bashed for years for "banding" problems which were more like user errors in exposure.
May 28, 2017 at 03:45 AM
p.3 #9Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
MJKoski wrote:
Funny, Lloyd's first example did not have strong backlit object, it still had line pattern. And in the end, if PDAF causes this, then the tech is not ready for prime time. It is completely bonkers that suddenly with Sony product with such artifacts are just fine vs. Canon got bashed for years for "banding" problems which were more like user errors in exposure.
Really...just junk not prime time. You used a Sony system, the A7R2 has this exact same issue. How many of your images were ruined by this issue. You did not even know a problem existed until Lloyd brought it up. this issue is not even close to the banding problems with the Canon sensors. Please try not to sensationalize every single statement you make. Really...the sky is not falling, again.
Funny, Lloyd's first example did not have strong backlit object, it still had line pattern. And in the end, if PDAF causes this, then the tech is not ready for prime time. It is completely bonkers that suddenly with Sony product with such artifacts are just fine vs. Canon got bashed for years for "banding" problems which were more like user errors in exposure.
Really...just junk not prime time. You used a Sony system, the A7R2 has this exact same issue. How many of your images were ruined by this issue. You did not even know a problem existed until Lloyd brought it up. this issue is not even close to the banding problems with the Canon sensors. Please try not to sensationalize every single statement you make. Really...the sky is not falling, again.
May 28, 2017 at 05:27 AM
p.3 #10Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Wanna bet? I do have samples of very extreme banding and I have reported them before. Not from R2 but R1.
May 28, 2017 at 06:17 AM
p.3 #11Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
MJKoski wrote:
Funny, Lloyd's first example did not have strong backlit object, it still had line pattern. And in the end, if PDAF causes this, then the tech is not ready for prime time. It is completely bonkers that suddenly with Sony product with such artifacts are just fine vs. Canon got bashed for years for "banding" problems which were more like user errors in exposure.
This isn't the same thing at all. Canon's banding issues greatly restricted dynamic range (DR) and were there in every image. The Sony problem seems to occur only very rarely.After several thousand shots with my A7rII I have yet to se an image with banding. With my 5D MKII I could see it with every image if I pulled the shadows up. In practice it is a huge difference. I think the problem is much more like the problem with compressed RAW with the Sony cameras. It likely happens very rarely and with very specific conditions and affects a very small number of images.
Funny, Lloyd's first example did not have strong backlit object, it still had line pattern. And in the end, if PDAF causes this, then the tech is not ready for prime time. It is completely bonkers that suddenly with Sony product with such artifacts are just fine vs. Canon got bashed for years for "banding" problems which were more like user errors in exposure.
This isn't the same thing at all. Canon's banding issues greatly restricted dynamic range (DR) and were there in every image. The Sony problem seems to occur only very rarely.After several thousand shots with my A7rII I have yet to se an image with banding. With my 5D MKII I could see it with every image if I pulled the shadows up. In practice it is a huge difference. I think the problem is much more like the problem with compressed RAW with the Sony cameras. It likely happens very rarely and with very specific conditions and affects a very small number of images.
May 28, 2017 at 06:35 AM
p.3 #12Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Can someone honestly explain the need to 'defend' this? Please, what is the rationale here? Dismissing this bease you don't find it a big deal in your line of work may be one thing, but as a proposed 'sports camera' where bad light and significant cropping is often a big part of what goes to print, I would take serious issue with this. What about higher isos?
May 28, 2017 at 06:49 AM
p.3 #13Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Exactly. At this class the going gets tough.
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
May 28, 2017 at 07:01 AM
p.3 #14Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
MJKoski wrote:
Exactly. At this class the going gets tough.
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
That doesn't look like banding to me, but rather a shutter issue.
Exactly. At this class the going gets tough.
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
That doesn't look like banding to me, but rather a shutter issue.
May 28, 2017 at 07:08 AM
p.3 #15Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
jeremy_clay wrote:
Can someone honestly explain the need to 'defend' this? Please, what is the rationale here? Dismissing this bease you don't find it a big deal in your line of work may be one thing, but as a proposed 'sports camera' where bad light and significant cropping is often a big part of what goes to print, I would take serious issue with this. What about higher isos?
I don't think anyone is defending it...but more like putting things into perspective. After all the 1DX camera has banding and yet is a very successful sports camera. I don't see the Canon crowd out there creating such a fuss over their camera...why such a fuss here?
Can someone honestly explain the need to 'defend' this? Please, what is the rationale here? Dismissing this bease you don't find it a big deal in your line of work may be one thing, but as a proposed 'sports camera' where bad light and significant cropping is often a big part of what goes to print, I would take serious issue with this. What about higher isos?
I don't think anyone is defending it...but more like putting things into perspective. After all the 1DX camera has banding and yet is a very successful sports camera. I don't see the Canon crowd out there creating such a fuss over their camera...why such a fuss here?
May 28, 2017 at 07:14 AM
p.3 #16Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
It may look like so but is not. I have been able to replicate it with 3 different units. All it takes is extreme contrast and horizontal trail of light from powerful source.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpgThat doesn't look like banding to me, but rather a shutter issue.
Steve Spencer wrote:
MJKoski wrote
Exactly. At this class the going gets tough.Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
May 28, 2017 at 07:57 AM
p.3 #17Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I also noticed that the A9 is a bit "darker" than other Sony cameras
It's it possible that this new camera may be possessed by some king of evil spirits?
Once I get my A9 I,m going to perform an exorcist ritual on it just in case
It's it possible that this new camera may be possessed by some king of evil spirits?
Once I get my A9 I,m going to perform an exorcist ritual on it just in case
May 28, 2017 at 09:18 AM
p.3 #18Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
It reminds me of factory overclocked videocard which was pushed just a bit too far. Sapphire Radeon 9700 Pro was ages ago in 2003 sold with memory timings that did not work with RAM chips from certain manufacturer. A lot of units were swapped to new ones. I had two of those :]
May 28, 2017 at 09:35 AM
p.3 #19Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I was just told by an exorcist friend of mine that sprinkling a few drops of Holly Water on the body of the A9 will get rid of the "evil banding"
You can get Holy Water from the Jordan River in 1 7/8 Inch Glass Vial Bottle for only $4 from Amazon
You can get Holy Water from the Jordan River in 1 7/8 Inch Glass Vial Bottle for only $4 from Amazon
May 28, 2017 at 09:51 AM
p.3 #20Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
MJKoski wrote:
It may look like so but is not. I have been able to replicate it with 3 different units. All it takes is extreme contrast and horizontal trail of light from powerful source.
Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpgThat doesn't look like banding to me, but rather a shutter issue.
it may be a more general issue, but one band that wide sure looks like a shutter problem not a sensor banding problem.
It may look like so but is not. I have been able to replicate it with 3 different units. All it takes is extreme contrast and horizontal trail of light from powerful source.
Steve Spencer wrote
MJKoski wrote
Exactly. At this class the going gets tough.Meanwhile, a7r1 provides world class banding...
https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/horizontal_light_fail.jpg/_full.jpg
it may be a more general issue, but one band that wide sure looks like a shutter problem not a sensor banding problem.
May 28, 2017 at 10:40 AM