This topic is in the 2017 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2017Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
p.2 #1Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
r.gil wrote:
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really are
That's a silly thing to say. What if I'm doing a client shoot this weekend and I get the camera Friday and I test it very briefly and then I go out and ruin all my clients photos? BTW this isn't me, but a few people here on the forum are doing exactly that the second the camera is in hand.
I'm not saying this particular problem is bad enough to ruin photos.. But I'd rather someone test this and make me aware of this so I can look out for it, and judge for myself if I want to put up with it or not..
Honestly I'm thankful for people who dig deep and find errors with the sensor. It's not going to stop me from buying and trying the camera.. But if this turns out to be a BIG problem for me, my web sized images, my high res deliverable images and my prints, then it's not the camera for me until the issue is fixed by Sony.
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really are
That's a silly thing to say. What if I'm doing a client shoot this weekend and I get the camera Friday and I test it very briefly and then I go out and ruin all my clients photos? BTW this isn't me, but a few people here on the forum are doing exactly that the second the camera is in hand.
I'm not saying this particular problem is bad enough to ruin photos.. But I'd rather someone test this and make me aware of this so I can look out for it, and judge for myself if I want to put up with it or not..
Honestly I'm thankful for people who dig deep and find errors with the sensor. It's not going to stop me from buying and trying the camera.. But if this turns out to be a BIG problem for me, my web sized images, my high res deliverable images and my prints, then it's not the camera for me until the issue is fixed by Sony.
May 26, 2017 at 10:58 PM
p.2 #2Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
snapsy wrote:
A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpgIf that image demonstrates the full extent of the issue as a worse case then it doesn't seem like a huge issue, unless your buying the camera to have the latest and greatest tech with out actually having a specific use case that needs the features of the camera.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.My guess is that it's related to the on-chip PDAF sensors - the A6000 had a nearly identical issue (here).
Was the A6000 issue ever fixed by Sony?
aeonsim wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
I noticed banding on the right side of this image:A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpg
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.
Was the A6000 issue ever fixed by Sony?
May 26, 2017 at 11:25 PM
p.2 #3Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
randomguy wrote:
A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpgIf that image demonstrates the full extent of the issue as a worse case then it doesn't seem like a huge issue, unless your buying the camera to have the latest and greatest tech with out actually having a specific use case that needs the features of the camera.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.My guess is that it's related to the on-chip PDAF sensors - the A6000 had a nearly identical issue (here).Was the A6000 issue ever fixed by Sony?
No, but not much is said about it so I imagine it won't be a big deal for A9 shooters either unless it shows up in more shooting scenarios than the A6000.
snapsy wrote
aeonsim wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
I noticed banding on the right side of this image:A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpg
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.
No, but not much is said about it so I imagine it won't be a big deal for A9 shooters either unless it shows up in more shooting scenarios than the A6000.
May 27, 2017 at 12:17 AM
p.2 #4Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I can confirm that the issue shows up in Capture One Pro too on that DSC00364.arw raw file from preview.
You can convert to black & white and boost the contrast, if you don't see.
It shows up most clearly in the part of the image where the tonal range go from mid grey to darker greys.
Hope that they can fixed it in a firmware update or calibrate the sensor's for those that need it gone.
Edited on May 27, 2017 at 01:41 AM · View previous versions
You can convert to black & white and boost the contrast, if you don't see.
It shows up most clearly in the part of the image where the tonal range go from mid grey to darker greys.
Hope that they can fixed it in a firmware update or calibrate the sensor's for those that need it gone.
Edited on May 27, 2017 at 01:41 AM · View previous versions
May 27, 2017 at 01:03 AM
p.2 #5Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Sony will get it sorted. Having said that, I learned my lesson about early adoption.
May 27, 2017 at 01:10 AM
p.2 #6Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
adamdewilde wrote:
That's a silly thing to say. What if I'm doing a client shoot this weekend and I get the camera Friday and I test it very briefly and then I go out and ruin all my clients photos? BTW this isn't me, but a few people here on the forum are doing exactly that the second the camera is in hand.
Sorry, but it would quite silly to buy a brand new released camera to test 1 day before a wedding or whatever paid job. Even if it would be a A7RII something could be wrong with the device and you simply have no time to swap.
r.gil wrote
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really areSorry, but it would quite silly to buy a brand new released camera to test 1 day before a wedding or whatever paid job. Even if it would be a A7RII something could be wrong with the device and you simply have no time to swap.
May 27, 2017 at 01:57 AM
p.2 #7Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Mirror wrote:
That's a silly thing to say. What if I'm doing a client shoot this weekend and I get the camera Friday and I test it very briefly and then I go out and ruin all my clients photos? BTW this isn't me, but a few people here on the forum are doing exactly that the second the camera is in hand.Sorry, but it would quite silly to buy a brand new released camera to test 1 day before a wedding or whatever paid job. Even if it would be a A7RII something could be wrong with the device and you simply have no time to swap.
Tell that to the 10 or so people on here who were hoping to get the camera before X event. And what do you mean silly?
I have three cameras of the same make. If one fails I have a backup. So if I buy the A9 today, and shoot a wedding tomorrow and it fails, or seems to not be working right, I just grab one of my many cameras. As a pro you should/would have backups.
So what if you shoot and all looks well, then you go home and bam all is not well? And honestly limited testing before a paid shoot may not show the problem. But are you telling me that you test your gear as well as a camera tester like lloyd before shooting with it? If so, great.. If not then isn't it good to be made aware of these things so you can look out for them?
adamdewilde wrote
r.gil wrote
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really areTell that to the 10 or so people on here who were hoping to get the camera before X event. And what do you mean silly?
I have three cameras of the same make. If one fails I have a backup. So if I buy the A9 today, and shoot a wedding tomorrow and it fails, or seems to not be working right, I just grab one of my many cameras. As a pro you should/would have backups.
So what if you shoot and all looks well, then you go home and bam all is not well? And honestly limited testing before a paid shoot may not show the problem. But are you telling me that you test your gear as well as a camera tester like lloyd before shooting with it? If so, great.. If not then isn't it good to be made aware of these things so you can look out for them?
May 27, 2017 at 02:31 AM
p.2 #8Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
OK, someone over a dpreview had the same issue with the A7r2:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56844661
Apparently it is a pixel phase detect issue:
Phase detect pixel issue
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56844661
Apparently it is a pixel phase detect issue:
Phase detect pixel issue
May 27, 2017 at 03:43 AM
p.2 #9Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Shooting into the Sun...what a brilliant idea...
Reminds me of the guy who drove his car at 120m/h into a brick wall and then he was complaining that the radiator was leaking antifreeze....
Reminds me of the guy who drove his car at 120m/h into a brick wall and then he was complaining that the radiator was leaking antifreeze....
May 27, 2017 at 07:12 AM
p.2 #10Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Hysteria sells subscriptions. Need I say more, we seen it how many times now. Wise up folks
May 27, 2017 at 08:00 AM
p.2 #11Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
charles.K wrote:
I have a theory that as we push sensors and in particular those without AA filters we will see this more often.
It's due to on sensor phase detect pixels - all Sonys with OSPDAF do this when pointed at a lightsource. If you take a macro photo of the sensor you see the same pattern. The PD pixels are filtered differently, and thus respond differently to strongly off axis light, which you get a lot when you provoke flare like this.
There's no solution other than to filter it out, or use a different system if veiling flare is your thing...
I have a theory that as we push sensors and in particular those without AA filters we will see this more often.
It's due to on sensor phase detect pixels - all Sonys with OSPDAF do this when pointed at a lightsource. If you take a macro photo of the sensor you see the same pattern. The PD pixels are filtered differently, and thus respond differently to strongly off axis light, which you get a lot when you provoke flare like this.
There's no solution other than to filter it out, or use a different system if veiling flare is your thing...
May 27, 2017 at 08:04 AM
p.2 #12Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
So then as I understand it this is not something that will show up in a regular picture when lifting shadows (like we would have seen on previous Canon sensors) but instead just in these specific areas shooting into sun. Is that correct or does this show up when lifting shadows also?
May 27, 2017 at 08:37 AM
p.2 #13Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
arbitrage wrote:
So then as I understand it this is not something that will show up in a regular picture when lifting shadows (like we would have seen on previous Canon sensors) but instead just in these specific areas shooting into sun. Is that correct or does this show up when lifting shadows also?
That's correct.
So then as I understand it this is not something that will show up in a regular picture when lifting shadows (like we would have seen on previous Canon sensors) but instead just in these specific areas shooting into sun. Is that correct or does this show up when lifting shadows also?
That's correct.
May 27, 2017 at 08:45 AM
p.2 #14Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I regularly torture my A7RII with over/under exposure and severe highlight/shadow recovery/lifting and have not seen this.
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
May 27, 2017 at 09:28 AM
p.2 #15Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
jhinkey wrote:
I regularly torture my A7RII with over/under exposure and severe highlight/shadow recovery/lifting and have not seen this.
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
Perhaps it shows up in other cameras to a lesser degree. Also we are not looking for it and it seems to only happen in backlit conditions where there is veiling flare.
I don't think this is a big as some people are making it to be.
I regularly torture my A7RII with over/under exposure and severe highlight/shadow recovery/lifting and have not seen this.
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
Perhaps it shows up in other cameras to a lesser degree. Also we are not looking for it and it seems to only happen in backlit conditions where there is veiling flare.
I don't think this is a big as some people are making it to be.
May 27, 2017 at 09:53 AM
p.2 #16Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
jhinkey wrote:
I regularly torture my A7RII with over/under exposure and severe highlight/shadow recovery/lifting and have not seen this.
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
It's not related to shadow pushing and occurs on other Sony cameras as well, including the A6000 and A7RII.
I regularly torture my A7RII with over/under exposure and severe highlight/shadow recovery/lifting and have not seen this.
It could also be that not all copies have this and affected models need adjustment - did something similar not happen to the D200 (I think) and it had nothing to do with Phase Detect pixels - rather it was the duel high speed readout circuits (or something like that) which were not calibrated properly?
It's not related to shadow pushing and occurs on other Sony cameras as well, including the A6000 and A7RII.
May 27, 2017 at 09:57 AM
p.2 #17Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
snapsy wrote:
It's not related to shadow pushing and occurs on other Sony cameras as well, including the A6000 and A7RII.
It occurs with the A7R as well, except it's predominantly vertical banding instead of horizontal. It happens when there is a moderately bright light source (not just direct sunlight) next to a very dark area.
It's not related to shadow pushing and occurs on other Sony cameras as well, including the A6000 and A7RII.
It occurs with the A7R as well, except it's predominantly vertical banding instead of horizontal. It happens when there is a moderately bright light source (not just direct sunlight) next to a very dark area.
May 27, 2017 at 10:12 AM
p.2 #18Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Not the same thing at all. I take it you have never heard of silhouettes or rim lighting?
r.gil wrote:
Shooting into the Sun...what a brilliant idea...
Reminds me of the guy who drove his car at 120m/h into a brick wall and then he was complaining that the radiator was leaking antifreeze....
May 27, 2017 at 11:43 AM
p.2 #19Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
gnj....I'm very basic and some what ignorant a far as some technical aspects of photography, I don't even look at what I'm shooting most of the time, I just take my Sony with a 28 or 35mm lens and shoot a what ever crosses in my path, some times I get lucky and catch someone doing something interesting or just hanging out there doing nothing at all..!
Once I get home and upload to my computer I have a glass of wine with my good old friend "Photo Shop" and let him/her correct all the flaws that i had made while shooting with my other good friend A7r2..
Once I get home and upload to my computer I have a glass of wine with my good old friend "Photo Shop" and let him/her correct all the flaws that i had made while shooting with my other good friend A7r2..
May 27, 2017 at 01:00 PM
p.2 #20Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
molson wrote:
It occurs with the A7R as well, except it's predominantly vertical banding instead of horizontal. It happens when there is a moderately bright light source (not just direct sunlight) next to a very dark area.
That sounds like you're describing Sony's lossy RAW compression.
This is something different, and it's an optical effect that occurs even when shooting uncompressed...
May 27, 2017 at 03:07 PM