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Archive 2017Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
p.1 #1Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
SAR has an article about Digglloyd mention of banding on A9 ISO 100 images in high-contrast areas. It appears in some of the dpreview samples as well.
Here's a 100% crop of a dpreview raw I converted in LR with no adjustments:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rRmjSg8/0/b1f5a179/O/i-rRmjSg8.jpg
A9 ISO 100 sample raw (dpreview)
Edited on May 26, 2017 at 04:44 PM · View previous versions
Here's a 100% crop of a dpreview raw I converted in LR with no adjustments:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rRmjSg8/0/b1f5a179/O/i-rRmjSg8.jpg
A9 ISO 100 sample raw (dpreview)
Edited on May 26, 2017 at 04:44 PM · View previous versions
May 26, 2017 at 04:42 PM
p.1 #3Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Here's the DPReview thread about this:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4161146
Apparently it has come up in other cameras previously. In our case we've seen it in the a77II that we owned a few years back.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4161146
Apparently it has come up in other cameras previously. In our case we've seen it in the a77II that we owned a few years back.
May 26, 2017 at 04:47 PM
p.1 #4Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I will hold my comments. It was not good out of the gate.
May 26, 2017 at 04:49 PM
p.1 #5Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
FYI, it's present in the embedded JPEG in the raw in case anyone might think it's a processing issue:
A9 ISO 100 dpreview sample (extracted embedded JPEG)
A9 ISO 100 dpreview sample (extracted embedded JPEG)
May 26, 2017 at 05:01 PM
p.1 #6Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I've seen this even worse on a review I just looked at. The one where some guy shoots fashion. It's on the image with the girl with orange bokeh background. Thought it might be compression issues since I didn't think it would be a sensor issue. But now that I think about it, the M246 Monochrom had this issue at first too. And since a lot of his other images don't have this compression issue, maybe it's a issue when pushing/pulling the images in LR?
IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?
IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?
May 26, 2017 at 05:17 PM
p.1 #7Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
If that image demonstrates the full extent of the issue as a worse case then it doesn't seem like a huge issue, unless your buying the camera to have the latest and greatest tech with out actually having a specific use case that needs the features of the camera.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.
May 26, 2017 at 05:19 PM
p.1 #8Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
adamdewilde wrote:
I've seen this even worse on a review I just looked at. The one where some guy shoots fashion. It's on the image with the girl with orange bokeh background. Thought it might be compression issues since I didn't think it would be a sensor issue. But now that I think about it, the M246 Monochrom had this issue at first too. And since a lot of his other images don't have this compression issue, maybe it's a issue when pushing/pulling the images in LR?
IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?
I think that's something different probably a compression issue that pattern is different from the DPreview example and doesn't have an associated blown out region.
Also I note if you look at the shot of the girl the EXIF data claims it was processed in INSTAGRAM, which is hardly known for producing good clean images without artefacts.
I've seen this even worse on a review I just looked at. The one where some guy shoots fashion. It's on the image with the girl with orange bokeh background. Thought it might be compression issues since I didn't think it would be a sensor issue. But now that I think about it, the M246 Monochrom had this issue at first too. And since a lot of his other images don't have this compression issue, maybe it's a issue when pushing/pulling the images in LR?
IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?
I think that's something different probably a compression issue that pattern is different from the DPreview example and doesn't have an associated blown out region.
Also I note if you look at the shot of the girl the EXIF data claims it was processed in INSTAGRAM, which is hardly known for producing good clean images without artefacts.
May 26, 2017 at 05:25 PM
p.1 #9Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
aeonsim wrote:
A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpgIf that image demonstrates the full extent of the issue as a worse case then it doesn't seem like a huge issue, unless your buying the camera to have the latest and greatest tech with out actually having a specific use case that needs the features of the camera.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and...Show more →
My guess is that it's related to the on-chip PDAF sensors - the A6000 had a nearly identical issue (here).
Fred Miranda wrote
I noticed banding on the right side of this image:A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpg
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and...Show more →
My guess is that it's related to the on-chip PDAF sensors - the A6000 had a nearly identical issue (here).
May 26, 2017 at 05:26 PM
p.1 #10Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
snapsy wrote:
A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpgIf that image demonstrates the full extent of the issue as a worse case then it doesn't seem like a huge issue, unless your buying the camera to have the latest and greatest tech with out actually having a specific use case that needs the features of the camera.
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.My guess is that it's related to the on-chip PDAF sensors - the A6000 had a nearly identical issue (here).
True that could be it as well if the phase detect pixels function differently or have a different Bayer mask in front then they may have higher luminance.
aeonsim wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
I noticed banding on the right side of this image:A9 - 100-400GM - ISO 100
_https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS6000x4000~sample_galleries/4598193995/9830750670.jpg
Simply means you've got the A9 for the speed and a more professional body and the A7rii or eventual A9r for the best image quality.
When looking at that example it appears that the banding only occurs on some of the lines on the highest contrast areas near the blown out sun and they fade/vanish after they've moved 5-10% of the frame away from the blown out region. I wonder if it's something electronic with the sensor for example the blown out sun overloads the photo wells and causes a small amount of bleed over from the charge increases the "brightness" of some pixel rows overlapping the blown region that then dissipates as it gets further from the blown out photo wells.
True that could be it as well if the phase detect pixels function differently or have a different Bayer mask in front then they may have higher luminance.
May 26, 2017 at 05:28 PM
p.1 #11Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Not the greatest thing to see but wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Seems to be restricted to these specific high contrast areas and need to view at 100% to see it. It is very obvious on the leaves/sunflare image though but again only pixel peeping.
May 26, 2017 at 06:06 PM
p.1 #12Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Not exactly looking but I don't see anything bad in C1 YET.
May 26, 2017 at 06:24 PM
p.1 #13Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
aeonsim wrote:
IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?I think that's something different probably a compression issue that pattern is different from the DPreview example and doesn't have an associated blown out region.
Also I note if you look at the shot of the girl the EXIF data claims it was processed in INSTAGRAM, which is hardly known for producing good clean images without artefacts.
That's what I'm hoping. But since I've seen this patter on M246 images from early firmware, I was a bit worried.
adamdewilde wrote
I've seen this even worse on a review I just looked at. The one where some guy shoots fashion. It's on the image with the girl with orange bokeh background. Thought it might be compression issues since I didn't think it would be a sensor issue. But now that I think about it, the M246 Monochrom had this issue at first too. And since a lot of his other images don't have this compression issue, maybe it's a issue when pushing/pulling the images in LR?IMAGE SAMPLE NOT MY IMAGE
What do you all think the problem is? Compression or sensor?
Also I note if you look at the shot of the girl the EXIF data claims it was processed in INSTAGRAM, which is hardly known for producing good clean images without artefacts.
That's what I'm hoping. But since I've seen this patter on M246 images from early firmware, I was a bit worried.
May 26, 2017 at 06:41 PM
p.1 #14Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
arbitrage wrote:
Not the greatest thing to see but wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Seems to be restricted to these specific high contrast areas and need to view at 100% to see it. It is very obvious on the leaves/sunflare image though but again only pixel peeping.
If this wasn't fixable it would be a deal breaker to me.. I shoot a lot of backlit subjects in that exact way.
Not the greatest thing to see but wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Seems to be restricted to these specific high contrast areas and need to view at 100% to see it. It is very obvious on the leaves/sunflare image though but again only pixel peeping.
If this wasn't fixable it would be a deal breaker to me.. I shoot a lot of backlit subjects in that exact way.
May 26, 2017 at 06:43 PM
p.1 #15Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
Lloyd's BW example (blog post) shows it clearly. So, for someone doing lots of BW conversions for some reason it looks ugly.
May 26, 2017 at 07:20 PM
p.1 #16Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
I have a theory that as we push sensors and in particular those without AA filters we will see this more often. I have seen and reproduced this on the Leica Monochrom and sent the RAW files to Solms to review. I have seen it with the Leica M240 too. Apparently this can be issue with the XT2/XP2 although I have not seen it yet.
The real issue maybe as we aspire to sensors without AA filters, this can be issue under extreme lighting but may not be an issue for 98% of shots
The real issue maybe as we aspire to sensors without AA filters, this can be issue under extreme lighting but may not be an issue for 98% of shots
May 26, 2017 at 07:37 PM
p.1 #17Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
charles.K wrote:
I have a theory that as we push sensors and in particular those without AA filters we will see this more often. I have seen and reproduced this on the Leica Monochrom and sent the RAW files to Solms to review. I have seen it with the Leica M240 too. Apparently this can be issue with the XT2/XP2 although I have not seen it yet.
The real issue maybe as we aspire to sensors without AA filters, this can be issue under extreme lighting but may not be an issue for 98% of shots
Banding like this used to be rather common. It afflicted nearly all Canon sensors until their current generation of sensors, although theirs required pushing the shadows by at least a few stops to see. Sony was the opposite - their first Exmor sensors were renown for their absence of banding, in fact they have a few specific patents on how they avoid it. Once Sony started moving to the on-chip PDAF though it's manifested on a few sensors. The cause is completely different vs the Canons but with similar visual results.
I have a theory that as we push sensors and in particular those without AA filters we will see this more often. I have seen and reproduced this on the Leica Monochrom and sent the RAW files to Solms to review. I have seen it with the Leica M240 too. Apparently this can be issue with the XT2/XP2 although I have not seen it yet.
The real issue maybe as we aspire to sensors without AA filters, this can be issue under extreme lighting but may not be an issue for 98% of shots
Banding like this used to be rather common. It afflicted nearly all Canon sensors until their current generation of sensors, although theirs required pushing the shadows by at least a few stops to see. Sony was the opposite - their first Exmor sensors were renown for their absence of banding, in fact they have a few specific patents on how they avoid it. Once Sony started moving to the on-chip PDAF though it's manifested on a few sensors. The cause is completely different vs the Canons but with similar visual results.
May 26, 2017 at 07:56 PM
p.1 #18Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
We will never hear the end of this one.
May 26, 2017 at 08:56 PM
p.1 #19Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really are
May 26, 2017 at 09:36 PM
p.1 #20Sony A9 banding in high-contrast areas
r.gil wrote:
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really are
Actually for some people it's their job - Diglloyd customers pay him to do exactly what he does, technical reviews of cameras and lenses, which includes the discovery of image quality issues.
There are a few people out there who'd like to spend a lot of time looking for flaws on the equipment and then become "heroes" by showing the world how smart and clever they are, instead of going out shooting pictures and then coming here and show us how good and creative they really are
Actually for some people it's their job - Diglloyd customers pay him to do exactly what he does, technical reviews of cameras and lenses, which includes the discovery of image quality issues.
May 26, 2017 at 09:55 PM