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Archive 2017 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

MJKoski
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

Come on! Make our day! Downgrade!

May 18, 2017 at 02:32 PM

aikaarska
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

MJKoski wrote:
Come on! Make our day! Downgrade!

lol. But I'm sorry, not yet.

I've got too little information on its functionality - and in particular to: the benefits.

....However if akmtshun could report this information later , then I am more confident to do this big and interesting step - and - Downgrade! ;-)

May 18, 2017 at 02:55 PM

thrice
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

3.10 should have uncompressed RAW
3.20 was just AF tweaks and SD card compatibility

It should be noted that 3.10 always focused stopped down I believe, whereas on 3.20 and later a lot of lenses would AF wide open (or near to).

Firmware update 2.00 had uncompressed RAW. Perhaps we should find that firmware and roll back!

May 18, 2017 at 06:29 PM

thrice
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

Softpedia has old firmware versions.
http://drivers.softpedia.com/downloadTag/ILCE-7RM2

I'll downgrade to 3.10, and if that does not resolve the issue perhaps downgrade to 2.00!

May 18, 2017 at 06:52 PM

thrice
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

I have confirmation from reading a German sony forum with plenty of samples that this issue ocurred as far back as fw 3.00! Specifically spatial filtering at 4.0s

I have official word they are intending to fix the issue. Timeframe unknown but source is a friend at Sony who would know.

May 18, 2017 at 10:42 PM

MJKoski
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

It was back in October 2015 when some update made liveview noise in dark appear colored chunky mess versus fine grained noise. Also, the screen update was tiny bit slower. I think this was a serious downgrade in performance.

Then I took some milkyway photos in November and immediately noticed that why does the sky look a bit soft compared to D810 output using the same lens, maybe the lens had suffered some impact or adapter issue etc. and left it at that. Now it makes sense.

May 19, 2017 at 03:04 AM

aikaarska
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

thrice wrote:
I have confirmation from reading a German sony forum with plenty of samples that this issue ocurred as far back as fw 3.00! Specifically spatial filtering at 4.0s.

I think that spatial filtering (at 4.0s) came to the A7RII with firmware v.3.30, before that the limit for filtering was Bulb exposure only, and /but you had the chance to shoot without filtering in normal exposure mode (no Bulb) <30sec...

thrice wrote:
I have official word they are intending to fix the issue. Timeframe unknown but source is a friend at Sony who would know.

...This is very good to hear. I can wait a bit longer if official update is coming.

Ari

May 19, 2017 at 03:07 AM

aikaarska
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

MJKoski wrote:
It was back in October 2015 when some update made liveview noise in dark appear colored chunky mess versus fine grained noise. Also, the screen update was tiny bit slower. I think this was a serious downgrade in performance.

Then I took some milkyway photos in November and immediately noticed that why does the sky look a bit soft compared to D810 output using the same lens, maybe the lens had suffered some impact or adapter issue etc. and left it at that. Now it makes sense.

...And you were shooting in Bulb mode then?

I thought it was fairly well known fact that 4sec star eater filtering came with firmware v.3.30, and before that it was in Bulb mode only.

May 19, 2017 at 03:15 AM

MJKoski
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

No, not bulb mode. But 30 second exposures in manual mode. I still have all the material.

May 19, 2017 at 04:51 AM

thrice
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

aikaarska wrote:
I thought it was fairly well known fact that 4sec star eater filtering came with firmware v.3.30, and before that it was in Bulb mode only.

I'm back on 3.20 and it definitely occurs beyond 3.2s. Are you reciting what you've read online or what you've tested yourself?

May 19, 2017 at 05:50 AM

MJKoski
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

Yea this has been there longer than people think. I have posted this crop before.

https://mjkoski.1g.fi/kuvat/Miscellaneous/trash/_DSC1794-2.jpg/_full.jpg

Taken at 17th of February, 2016. A7R2, ISO100, 30 seconds, f/5.6. I always thought something is not right with that pixel level crop because it looks like someone smudged it with a layer of heavy handed noise reduction. This damn thing explains it all. That is downright cellphone quality at pixel level right there. You are looking at a pile of sand which now looks like some alien moon material.

May 19, 2017 at 06:06 AM

dgdg
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

thrice wrote:
Softpedia has old firmware versions.
http://drivers.softpedia.com/downloadTag/ILCE-7RM2

I'll downgrade to 3.10, and if that does not resolve the issue perhaps downgrade to 2.00!

How would I downgrade an old A7r v1 to 2.0?

May 19, 2017 at 06:49 AM

thrice
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

dgdg wrote:
How would I downgrade an old A7r v1 to 2.0?

Unpack, decrypt, modify version to higher number than your current fw, encrypt, pack, patch.

May 19, 2017 at 07:29 AM

MJKoski
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

But, then Sony comes up with a proper fix with number x.y you better be sure to not use a number higher that that NOW

Unless, you wanna modify all future FW fixes.

May 19, 2017 at 08:08 AM

aikaarska
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

thrice wrote:
I'm back on 3.20 and it definitely occurs beyond 3.2s. Are you reciting what you've read online or what you've tested yourself?

Well, I can't say for sure, because I updated my v.3.30 almost immediately when it came to download.... But yes, many online source like...

Note: read also Marty Knapp's responses there:

http://www.lonelyspeck.com/why-i-no-longer-recommend-sony-cameras-for-astrophotography-an-open-letter-to-sony/

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/lenr-and-sony-a7rii-fw-3-30-lowpass-filteering/

....makes that quite clear that specifically v.3.30 was critical update what come to >4sec exposures and star eater (with A7RII).

May 19, 2017 at 08:38 AM

MJKoski
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

Apparently fine grains of sand also qualify as stars.

May 19, 2017 at 09:08 AM

mjm6
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

MJKoski wrote:
Apparently fine grains of sand also qualify as stars.

I suspect you are right on this, but we really can't tell anything without seeing one from less than 4 seconds with that image.

I still cant really understand Sony's thinking on this at all... they develop a 42MP camera that has this amazing resolution capability, they develop all these lenses that are supposed to be able to deliver IQ into that camera and beyond presumably, and then they start chipping away at the actual performance of the camera through things like this.

I get that there will be sensor noise to address, and for mere snapshooters, it probably makes sense to apply noise filtering in the body, but to force that on the advanced users as well is really dumbfounding.

I've said in the past that they need to eliminate this from the Bulb setting along with their fix! Make it an electable option in the settings... 'NO, Yes-4 sec, Yes-Bulb' or something similar. For normal shooting, I might choose 'Yes-Bulb' to avoid having to pay special attention to an occasional longer exposure, but for astro, I'd choose 'NO'.

---Michael

May 19, 2017 at 10:07 AM

aikaarska
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

MJKoski wrote:
Apparently fine grains of sand also qualify as stars.

Yes, and also all kind of similar tiny stuff...

Check my samples here (3.2 sec vs 4sec and longer exposures):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59530886

However, MJKoski, I'm not sure about that your crop above. I agree with mjm6, that we can't tell anything for sure without seeing one from less than 4 seconds with that same sample....

May 19, 2017 at 10:21 AM

MJKoski
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

Let's go shoot the same pile of sand. You live close enough

If it only was this one incident. But we have cRAW also in the history which makes one wonder what were they thinking, if anything at all. This is the very reason I suspect A9 design may contain some nasty shortcuts to achieve what it tries to achieve.

May 19, 2017 at 10:36 AM

aikaarska
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Star Eater Algorithm and getting in contact with Sony

BTW - I have also 36mp Pentax K-1 (and A7RII)... So I have the opportunity to make direct comparisons between these cameras, also with same lens. For example 3.2 sec and longers exposure comparisons...

May 19, 2017 at 10:38 AM

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