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Archive 2017 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue

  
 
RoyC
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p.27 #1 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
And how is one to keep focusing (by which I take it you mean keep the focus point where one wants it) if one's view is blocked by the mirror and one cannot see one's target? Hint on camera operation: an SLR mirror flips up and down.


My D5 fires at 12 FPS and therefore takes an image every 0.0833 seconds. During that period of time (0.08 sec), the mirror drops down, the AF system confirms focus, lens is adjusted and the mirror goes back up to capture the next photo. In other words, the mirror blackout time is very short. If one does not concentrate on the mirror you will begin to not even notice it during your shooting. When I am shooting a flying bird, I am only concentrating on the bird and keeping the bird under my AF point. No thought is given to the mirror.

Give it an extended try, it may do wonders for your tracking.




Jun 22, 2017 at 05:52 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.27 #2 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


The viewfinder blackout time is quite short on the D5 and you can increase the "on" time for viewfinder and AF by reducing the frame rate a bit. I like to use 8fps instead of 12fps.

In any case at fast shutter speeds the blackout is shorter in duration than the "briefly" referred to in dynamic area AF documentation.




Edited on Jun 22, 2017 at 06:09 PM · View previous versions



Jun 22, 2017 at 06:07 PM
la puffin
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p.27 #3 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
And how is one to keep focusing (by which I take it you mean keep the focus point where one wants it) if one's view is blocked by the mirror and one cannot see one's target? Hint on camera operation: an SLR mirror flips up and down.


I got over my mirror blockage issue by this simple (and fun!) exercise:

Blink your eyes really fast and start walking. Practice until you don't bump into things. Then work your way up to a slow jog, working all the way up into you can do a fun sprint without tripping over the grass.



Jun 22, 2017 at 06:07 PM
henry albert
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p.27 #4 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


So here's what I'm on about. I like the old dynamic because of the length of time between drifting off the selected target, and the camera's selection of a new target (whatever is under the selected focus point). In some situations, I have been unable to keep the selected focus point continually on the target, and the delay in acquiring a new target has given me a chance to reorient the focus point as I desire. And here is an actually, honest-to-gawd, real-world example of said situation.

I shoot a lot of hockey. My favorite spot from which to shoot is behind the goal line and through the glass, at the last pane of glass before the corner curve. My preferred shot is an open ice check on the puck carrier at center ice and/or coming across the blue line. (If you don't know or shoot hockey and are wondering what that might be, go to YouTube and search for "scott stevens hits paul kariya.") I also like to shoot up the boards in the same area, because that is a common site of contact.

To get my shot, I survey the scene to see where the action might go, track the puck carrier coming toward me, zoom backwards to keep the frame, and try to anticipate the play. The play can be anything from a quick pass to a player out of frame, to a slick poke check from a defending player's stick, to body-to-body contact and prized facial expressions. The shooting might become extended, if more players enter the frame and begin jousting for control of the puck. If a hit has been applied to someone, you might linger on the scene after the puck has left to record any extracurricular activity that occurs: exchanged glares, shoves, stick jabs, slashes, discussions about the relative sexual attributes of the opposing players' mothers, that sort of thing.


Are there complications? you ask. Why, yes, there are a few.

1. This all can happen very quickly because skaters are often very fast. Even at the high school level in a hockey obsessed place like Minnesota, where the players have been on skates since they were four years old, that puck carrier can really be hauling ass. These are usually, as they say down at Moe's bar, bang bang plays.

2. The players are shifty and can make startlingly fast lateral movements.

3. The area can be crowded. There can be 10 skaters and one referee jammed inside the blue line, and every single one of them has been tasked by satan to wreck your shot.

4. Once you pull the trigger, the mirror blackouts come hot and heavy.

So, to summarize, the play is fast and coming at you, the target can move laterally without warning, a lot of traffic is conspiring to get into the frame, you are tracking the puck carrier AND zooming backwards, and 10-12 times a second your view of all this is obstructed.

It isn't difficult to see how easy it can to let the focus point slip off the target in that scenario. So it is also easy to see why the old dynamic mode, with it's generous delay before switching targets, is the photographer's friend. Dynamic as constituted in the D5/D500, switches targets far too fast. So fast that in use it functions simply as single point, which negates the reason to have dynamic modes in the first place.

I don't have a D5, but I'm an early adopter of the D500 (also use a D750 and D4). I had begun to use the D500 a lot because several of the local rinks have very good lighting, but I stopped because of the large numbers of OOF frames it generated. Before this thread I assumed that either I had a bad copy of the D500, or the much ballyhooed focusing system wasn't as advertised. After this thread began I discovered that I can control the amount of time the dynamic mode delays it's acquisition of a new target using the blocked shot menu. In fact, I think dynamic is just a further development of the blocked shot routine.

One final point. Some folks like group mode and wonder why us dynamic mode whiners don't just use it instead. Well, group mode sucks for hockey because it focuses on whatever is closest, and whatever is closest is often a helmet or stick or number of a player you don't want to focus on. In fact, I don't use group mode at all for the same reason: it focuses on what it sees as closest to the camera and not necessarily on what I want.



Jun 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM
henry albert
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p.27 #5 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


la puffin wrote:
I got over my mirror blockage issue by this simple (and fun!) exercise:

Blink your eyes really fast and start walking. Practice until you don't bump into things. Then work your way up to a slow jog, working all the way up into you can do a fun sprint without tripping over the grass.


I'd recommend not quitting your day job to do stand up.



Jun 23, 2017 at 11:05 AM
agrumpyoldsod
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p.27 #6 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve --- see the latest posts on https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4145165 - Nikon JP have come back to the OP on this matter. I am very unhappy with the response they provided to the OP.

I met my NPS rep on this matter to last week. I provided Nikon with some recent shots from a polo match https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9295k2mjhsm6toq/AADtASFRhZtnHObr8vT3AqNHa?dl=0.




Jun 23, 2017 at 11:08 AM
henry albert
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p.27 #7 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


RoyC wrote:
My D5 fires at 12 FPS and therefore takes an image every 0.0833 seconds. During that period of time (0.08 sec), the mirror drops down, the AF system confirms focus, lens is adjusted and the mirror goes back up to capture the next photo. In other words, the mirror blackout time is very short. If one does not concentrate on the mirror you will begin to not even notice it during your shooting. When I am shooting a flying bird, I am only concentrating on the bird and keeping the bird under my AF point. No thought is given to
...Show more

I often wonder why people think that the way they shoot and the subjects they choose and the conditions they shoot in are exactly the same for everyone.



Jun 23, 2017 at 11:10 AM
henry albert
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p.27 #8 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Imagemaster wrote:
Concentrate. And how long do you think your view is blocked during these bursts? And how do you think thousands of photographers have been managing to cope with this for a number of years, and getting excellent results?


Oh, please. Strawman Arguments is down the hall, third door on your right. Ask for the Cheap Rhetorical Techniques Department.



Jun 23, 2017 at 11:17 AM
arbitrage
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p.27 #9 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
So here's what I'm on about. I like the old dynamic because of the length of time between drifting off the selected target, and the camera's selection of a new target (whatever is under the selected focus point). In some situations, I have been unable to keep the selected focus point continually on the target, and the delay in acquiring a new target has given me a chance to reorient the focus point as I desire. And here is an actually, honest-to-gawd, real-world example of said situation.

I shoot a lot of hockey. My favorite spot from which to shoot
...Show more

By setting blocked shot delay to the longest possible let you shoot in Dynamic as effectively as you can with the older behaviour on your D4/D750? Which Dynamic mode do you use? I'm assuming the smallest available (D25 on D500 and whatever it was called on D4 (D9?)). I bet the best mode for you might be the D9 on D5 but that would require a big investment....or would that grouping be too small?



Jun 23, 2017 at 11:37 AM
RoyC
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p.27 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
I often wonder why people think that the way they shoot and the subjects they choose and the conditions they shoot in are exactly the same for everyone.


I have no clue. But what does that have to do with the discussion we were having about people learning how to take advantage of the attributes of their cameras?




Jun 23, 2017 at 11:55 AM
henry albert
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p.27 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


arbitrage wrote:
By setting blocked shot delay to the longest possible let you shoot in Dynamic as effectively as you can with the older behaviour on your D4/D750? Which Dynamic mode do you use? I'm assuming the smallest available (D25 on D500 and whatever it was called on D4 (D9?)). I bet the best mode for you might be the D9 on D5 but that would require a big investment....or would that grouping be too small?


Haven't given it the acid test yet because I didn't discover the undocumented adjustments until after the season ended. My first D500 was stolen this spring and I haven't used it's replacement much this summer, so I won't be able definitively answer any any performance questions until indoor sports resume. It seems to work well, but we'll see.

I use D9 on the FF bodies and D25 on the D500 because it doesn't offer D9.

I'm about 75 percent retired now and won't be buying a D5. There's probably only one expensive camera left for me, and that's a high performance mirrorless. If Nikon doesn't step up in the next year or so, I'll seriously consider an A9 or similarly performing body. A silent shutter for public meetings, plays, recitals, that sort of thing would be the cat's meow. 20 frames a second could be cool, too. I won't switch away from Nikon, but I can see buying a couple of native lenses like a 70-200 and 24-70.



Jun 23, 2017 at 12:02 PM
henry albert
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p.27 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


RoyC wrote:
I have no clue. But what does that have to do with the discussion we were having about people learning how to take advantage of the attributes of their cameras?



Because you and others are saying that because you don't find a problem with the D5/D500 dynamic mode, no one else should either. You are saying that those of us who use dynamic as originally presented by Nikon and find fault with the new version are incompetent and/or too stupid to use the camera properly. No amount of fact presentation and reasoned argument has dissuaded you from that opinion.



Jun 23, 2017 at 12:09 PM
AnnJS
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p.27 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Have you experimented with using "3D Tracking AF" for your Hockey shots?


Jun 23, 2017 at 01:31 PM
RoyC
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p.27 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
Because you and others are saying that because you don't find a problem with the D5/D500 dynamic mode, no one else should either. You are saying that those of us who use dynamic as originally presented by Nikon and find fault with the new version are incompetent and/or too stupid to use the camera properly. No amount of fact presentation and reasoned argument has dissuaded you from that opinion.


Nope, I have just simply pointed out that if one keeps the AF point on your subject the current operation of Dynamic AF is not an issue. I have suggest, along with others, some ways to aide you in following your subject which would make things better. Also, I have not offered my opinion as to whether "those of us who use dynamic as originally presented by Nikon and find fault with the new version are incompetent and/or too stupid to use the camera properly." I will leave the personal attacks to those that are more experienced in that area than I.






Jun 23, 2017 at 01:57 PM
henry albert
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p.27 #15 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
Have you experimented with using "3D Tracking AF" for your Hockey shots?


Not since the D3. It had trouble keeping up sometimes, and occasionally got completely lost. I just used single point. Because I've been happy with dynamic I never thought to give it a try with the newer bodies, but I will this year. I'm such a creature of habit that I have a tendency to go with what I know. Or, as my wife puts it, I've become an old dog who doesn't want to climb out of his rut.



Jun 23, 2017 at 02:05 PM
henry albert
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p.27 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


RoyC wrote:
Nope, I have just simply pointed out that if one keeps the AF point on your subject the current operation of Dynamic AF is not an issue. I have suggest, along with others, some ways to aide you in following your subject which would make things better. Also, I have not offered my opinion as to whether "those of us who use dynamic as originally presented by Nikon and find fault with the new version are incompetent and/or too stupid to use the camera properly." I will leave the personal attacks to those that are more experienced in that area
...Show more

And I have pointed out, to no appreciable effect, that keeping the focus point on the target can sometimes be problematic. How is someone to interpret your repeated insistence that it's simply a matter of using the camera properly, if not as an insult to our ability to use the camera properly?



Jun 23, 2017 at 02:10 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.27 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Brad Hill's comments on D5's 9-point dynamic: "Nikon D5:

Nikon's Ferrari continues to blow me away. When the light goes real low or I need extreme autofocus performance (or "preciseness") nothing beats the D5 (and it DOES beat the D500 in those conditions). Before this trip I was a HUGE fan of the unique 9-point Dynamic Area focusing mode of the D5 (which was introduced AFTER the camera was released by a firmware update) - I love it even more now. No camera is perfect but to date the D5 is the closest approximation to "perfect" that I've been able to find. You'll see LOTS of Khutzeymateen shots captured with my D5 in my Gallery of Latest Additions in the coming days and weeks..."

and earlier a long post "8 Sept 2016: Just Loving the D5's New 9-Point Dynamic Area Mode!" It's worth a read to those who think the camera is somehow deeply flawed.

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html



Jun 23, 2017 at 05:29 PM
CritterRacing
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p.27 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
Have you experimented with using "3D Tracking AF" for your Hockey shots?


I have and i love it. It does actually work compaired to past models.



Jun 23, 2017 at 08:25 PM
jpelt78
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p.27 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


ilkka_nissila wrote:
and earlier a long post "8 Sept 2016: Just Loving the D5's New 9-Point Dynamic Area Mode!" It's worth a read to those who think the camera is somehow deeply flawed.

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html


I don't think anyone believes the camera is deeply flawed. It is the best to date but that doesn't mean it can't be better or that there is no possibility one or more flaws may have slipped through. Nikon isn't perfect you know.



Jun 23, 2017 at 09:03 PM
la puffin
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p.27 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
Not since the D3. It had trouble keeping up sometimes, and occasionally got completely lost. I just used single point. Because I've been happy with dynamic I never thought to give it a try with the newer bodies, but I will this year.


It's worth trying. It works very well. You have to believe Nikon is progressing in their technology. However, I think there's difference between the D5 and D500 in this and a few other aspects.

henry albert wrote:
I'm such a creature of habit that I have a tendency to go with what I know. Or, as my wife puts it, I've become an old dog who doesn't want to climb out of his rut.


She's probably right.

You have a new camera with a new AF system, yet you've been trying to use your old technique and methodology with it. Now you know it's different. You can keep banging your head against the wall with what works on other bodies or try to take advantage of what the new system can do.

It is confusing because the literature from past cameras now describes exactly what the new AF system does.

To try to work with the strengths of the new system, there's a couple of things that I do that you may want to try. No sarcasm here... I shoot professionally and on my off days, I work on my technique. Since you're 75% retired, you may have time

I use a 70-200/2.8 wide open and try to shoot butterflies. About 3-4ft away, around 70-135mm and wide open, try to follow and shoot the butterflies. They are extremely erratic, but it will build up your speed with tracking your subject. The first day may be nothing in focus, but after a week, you may be surprised at an improvement. That'll translate well with what you're trying to shoot.

Also, try shooting with single point, tracking power lines. They are never perfect horizontal, but keeping a single point on them as you follow them can be a challenge initially for some. It's a good exercise in predicting AF. For some, it's not as easy as it sounds. To make it tougher, go faster.

Seriously, when you get better at following erratic movement, and really following predictive movement, you may find that D9/D25 are extremely helpful in giving you some fudge room. After you've tried these two exercises I've described, then you may see how Dynamic AF with the new AF system really works.

My folks used to live by the zoo in Minneapolis - brutally hot and humid in summer, and stupid cold in winter. I'm sure you can find a rink with a league to try out some new chops.



Jun 24, 2017 at 06:27 AM
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