Also if the subject wears a cap, group area AF would easily focus on the tip of the cap rather than the face, whereas with 9-point dynamic I didn't get that kind of errors.
Unless you're shooting inside 30' there should be enough DOF to have BOTH in sharp focus (300 f4 on FX)
A fine tune might be in order, I'd consider that BEFORE blaming Group AF...just sayin'
trenchmonkey wrote:
Unless you're shooting inside 30' there should be enough DOF to have BOTH in sharp focus (300 f4 on FX)
A fine tune might be in order, I'd consider that BEFORE blaming Group AF...just sayin'
Right, but I continue shooting as the subject comes closer. Most of my shots are on both sides of 7m distance which allows me to fill the frame with the top half of the body of a single runner. Less clutter. I do shoot some full body shots as well but tend to prefer the shots which are a bit closer.
If the camera aims to focus on the tip of the cap, that might be 5-9cm in front of the eyes. However, there is variation in focus from shot to shot which means that some shots will be front-focused more than the distance between the front edge of the cap and the eyes (and some less). As the face moves up and down due to the running action, the cap, face, or collar of the shirt could all attract the attention of the focus system. In my experience 9-pt group on the D5 seems best fit for this situation in the way that I shoot it. If this mode were not available I'd likely use group area or single point as I've done with the D810.
To get the chest, the face and the cap all in focus in as many shots as possible, one would need to go with f/8 or thereabouts. With 400mm I've shot at f/8 and it looks pretty decent but it is more enjoyable for me to shoot with something I can hand hold easily. When using shorter lenses, I prefer to use wider apertures for background blur. If I'm not mistaken I think the official shooters are requested to shoot at f/8 and aim for the number in the shirt. This would certainly give consistency but would not be my personal preference.
I am not blaming the camera or Group area AF for anything. I'm just describing what kind of experiences I've had. The shooter is responsible, not the camera.
ariot wrote:
anyone know if Steve got all this into his new Nikon guide available on his site? Thanks.
Thanks for the interest Yes, the new Nikon AF guide does cover it (and lots more of course ) but what's on the top of page 9 of this thread is about the same as what's in the book as far as the D5/D500's Dynamic AF.
Steve Perry wrote:
Thanks for the interest Yes, the new Nikon AF guide does cover it (and lots more of course ) but what's on the top of page 9 of this thread is about the same as what's in the book as far as the D5/D500's Dynamic AF.
Steve Perry wrote:
What'll be interesting is to see how the new D7500 acts. It'a 51 point system, but I'm not sure if it's still the MultiCam 3500DXII or if it will be an updated unit. If it's updated, it will be interesting to see if behaves like the D5/D500 or more like the previous system. I'll be ordering a D7500 via NPS as soon as it comes out and Dynamic AF is the first thing I'll test.
Just wondering if your D7500 has been delivered and Dyn AF report Steve?
I don't see how the D7500 would be much different from the D750 in terms of AF since it has the same basic module (Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II) and similar matrix meter (which is used by group, 3D tracking, and auto area AF); higher resolution than the D7200's matrix meter. The D500 and D5 have a different, more sensitive AF sensor module, and dual processors for faster processing of data and control. This affects all the AF modes but multi-point modes hesitate much less and act on the signal quickly. In my opinion they closely match what the manual and Sports AF guide describe (closer than the old system) but it may not always produce a better outcome. I'm pretty keen on the 9-point dynamic in the D5 though. It seems to work well for what I do and have found few drawbacks for it. Brad Hill also wrote excitedly about it in his blog (dated September 8, 2016). I guess Nikon could provide more settings and adjust the algorithms for 25-point dynamic and the larger areas. In particular, there could be some kind of setting which would allow the photographer to limit the range of distances which are considered for refocusing when continuously following a moving subject.
p.25 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
ilkka_nissila wrote:
I don't see how the D7500 would be much different from the D750 in terms of AF since it has the same basic module (Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II) and similar matrix meter (which is used by group, 3D tracking, and auto area AF); higher resolution than the D7200's matrix meter. The D500 and D5 have a different, more sensitive AF sensor module, and dual processors for faster processing of data and control. This affects all the AF modes but multi-point modes hesitate much less and act on the signal quickly. In my opinion they closely match what the manual and Sports AF guide describe (closer than the old system) but it may not always produce a better outcome. I'm pretty keen on the 9-point dynamic in the D5 though. It seems to work well for what I do and have found few drawbacks for it. Brad Hill also wrote excitedly about it in his blog (dated September 8, 2016). I guess Nikon could provide more settings and adjust the algorithms for 25-point dynamic and the larger areas. In particular, there could be some kind of setting which would allow the photographer to limit the range of distances which are considered for refocusing when continuously following a moving subject....Show more →
I agree - I think the D7500 will very likely behave like the previous cameras (D810, D7200, D750, etc.). If it does, then I don't think we know if the new system in the D5/D500 is as intended or if there's actually something wrong - at least not until we see the MultiCam2K in another camera (like the D820). That'll be the real test.
If the new camera DOES work like the D5/D500 (the AF module may be tweaked with the faster Expeed now on the table), then we'll know the way the D5/D500's Dynamic AF works is the new normal.
So, if it's the same we know nothing new, if it's different, then we know Nikon is simply changing the way it works. We should know in less than two weeks
p.25 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
I was just looking over the D7500 online manual and noticed the Focus Tracking With Lock On option (A3) is the same as the pre D5/D500 bodies (as we suspected). So, I'm going to guess Dynamic AF in that camera acts like the D810 and earlier bodies. I'm keeping an eye out for one, I guess they are arriving in dealers today (earlier than expected).
EDIT: It looks like my D7500 will be here Monday so I'll test then.
p.25 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
OK, I have the D7500 in hand and...
The Dynamic AF system is very similar to the pre-D5/D500 bodies. When you lock onto a target, and then move the primary point to a good target in the background, it will stay locked onto the first target indefinitely instead of switching to the background target as the D5/D500 would.
(Tested in all dynamic modes, AF-C. Note that this camera has AF-A as well and if you use AF-A it may assume that you want the camera to act like it's in AF-S mode and will not refocus from the first target even if your AF area is well removed from that initial subject - in this case it's not "tracking" but simply acting like AF-S. If the subject was moving, the camera should then start tracking, but AF-A is very unpredictable so I tend to recommend against it. I only mention this because AF-A is the factory setting and can cause confusion in testing.)
There is one difference I noticed right away however (and there may be more, I've only had the camera for an hour). Unlike the pre-D5/D500 cameras, the D7500 doesn't display which AF point is used in Dynamic mode upon image review - it always shows just the selected AF point (like the D5/D500).
At any rate, I don't think this confirms a problem with the Dynamic area in the D5/D500 one way or another since it uses a different AF module. Had it worked just like the D5/D500 I think we could assume that Dynamic mode behaviour was officially changed, but I think we'll have to wait till the D820 to really find out. If the D820 works like this camera, then there is something amiss with the Dynamic mode on the D5/D500. If it's the same, then - for better or worse - that's just the way it is.
More to come and I'll be doing a full review of the D7500 after 4-6 weeks of actual use (I hate it when reviewers go out and use a camera for a day and then review it - I like to really get to know the ins and outs before I review). If I stumble across any other Dynamic AF info I'll pass it along here, otherwise the rest will be in the upcoming review.
p.25 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Thanks for the update, Steve!
I have the D500/D5 and am very confused how to shoot birds at this time. !
Jun 05, 2017 at 09:34 AM
T-O Shooter Offline • • [X]
p.25 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
I've been waiting for today for your opinion. At the very least we know that not everything is going the D500 / D5 way. Leaves a little hope, I guess.
I'm with you on the quick, had it one day reviews. I get the point of it, internet traffic, but makes the reviews not much more than a rundown on specs. So I never pay attention to them and get my feedback off forums. And from fellows I figure that know what they're talking about.
p.25 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
I think what Nikon could do is
(1) give an additional custom function option "Dynamic area AF: closest subject priority ON/OFF" effectively allowing the user to switch between old asymmetrical and the new symmetrical dynamic area behavior. This would work for all region sizes (9, 25, 72, and 153). (The "old" dynamic is asymmetrical in that it holds onto the original subject when presented with background detail under the primary point, but if presented a foreground detail, it will eventually focus on the foreground detail instead of the original subject. This asymmetry has been removed from the D5 dynamic area AF, I believe this is intentional as the group area AF provides closest-subject priority in the new cameras so dynamic area AF does not need to have this asymmetry. However, it is clear there are users that prefer the closest-subject priority in the "old" dynamic. Personally I prefer the new dynamic especially in its 9-point incarnation which seems to work very well for brief split-second relapses of the photographer holding the primary point on the main subject's face.)
(2) Add the 9-point dynamic area AF to the D500 as well (currently only available on the D5 of the two Multi-CAM 20k cameras). I suspect Nikon is intentionally leaving it out from the D500 for product differentiation purposes, which is unfortunate as 9-point dynamic seems the best of the lot.
(3) Currently there is a Technical Guide / Sports AF Edition for each of the professional cameras. Nikon should write a similar one for wildlife photographers or provide wildlife examples in addition to sports ones in the guide. I think some wildlife photographers may miss the very useful advice in the Sports AF guide by dismissing it as not relevant to their subject matter.
(4) Add a 3D Tracking with restricted area mode. Currently 3D Tracking works within the whole 153 point array and the user has no way of restring the tracking to a specific region of the frame. They could offer 9-, 25-, and 72-point 3D tracking as well. If there is color contrast between the subject and surroundings, this would likely help photographers keep the focus on the intended subject. Unrestricted 3D tracking can slip to other subjects if there is enough change in the image content and structure.
p.25 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
ilkka_nissila wrote:
I think what Nikon could do is
(1) give an additional custom function option "Dynamic area AF: closest subject priority ON/OFF" effectively allowing the user to switch between old asymmetrical and the new symmetrical dynamic area behavior. This would work for all region sizes (9, 25, 72, and 153). (The "old" dynamic is asymmetrical in that it holds onto the original subject when presented with background detail under the primary point, but if presented a foreground detail, it will eventually focus on the foreground detail instead of the original subject. This asymmetry has been removed from the D5 dynamic area AF, I believe this is intentional as the group area AF provides closest-subject priority in the new cameras so dynamic area AF does not need to have this asymmetry. However, it is clear there are users that prefer the closest-subject priority in the "old" dynamic. Personally I prefer the new dynamic especially in its 9-point incarnation which seems to work very well for brief split-second relapses of the photographer holding the primary point on the main subject's face.)
(2) Add the 9-point dynamic area AF to the D500 as well (currently only available on the D5 of the two Multi-CAM 20k cameras). I suspect Nikon is intentionally leaving it out from the D500 for product differentiation purposes, which is unfortunate as 9-point dynamic seems the best of the lot.
(3) Currently there is a Technical Guide / Sports AF Edition for each of the professional cameras. Nikon should write a similar one for wildlife photographers or provide wildlife examples in addition to sports ones in the guide. I think some wildlife photographers may miss the very useful advice in the Sports AF guide by dismissing it as not relevant to their subject matter.
(4) Add a 3D Tracking with restricted area mode. Currently 3D Tracking works within the whole 153 point array and the user has no way of restring the tracking to a specific region of the frame. They could offer 9-, 25-, and 72-point 3D tracking as well. If there is color contrast between the subject and surroundings, this would likely help photographers keep the focus on the intended subject. Unrestricted 3D tracking can slip to other subjects if there is enough change in the image content and structure. ...Show more →
I agree on pretty much all points - and I know the idea of having both Dynamic systems has been floated before and is an idea I really think Nikon should consider. The truth is, I like the way D9 works on my D5 (and I'm sure I'd like in on my D500 as well) and I'm not sure if the original Dynamic method would really improve it. On the other hand, I like the "old" way for the larger areas. It would be nice to have a choice.
p.25 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Steve Perry wrote:
OK, I have the D7500 in hand and...
The Dynamic AF system is very similar to the pre-D5/D500 bodies. When you lock onto a target, and then move the primary point to a good target in the background, it will stay locked onto the first target indefinitely instead of switching to the background target as the D5/D500 would.
(Tested in all dynamic modes, AF-C. Note that this camera has AF-A as well and if you use AF-A it may assume that you want the camera to act like it's in AF-S mode and will not refocus from the first target even if your AF area is well removed from that initial subject - in this case it's not "tracking" but simply acting like AF-S. If the subject was moving, the camera should then start tracking, but AF-A is very unpredictable so I tend to recommend against it. I only mention this because AF-A is the factory setting and can cause confusion in testing.)
There is one difference I noticed right away however (and there may be more, I've only had the camera for an hour). Unlike the pre-D5/D500 cameras, the D7500 doesn't display which AF point is used in Dynamic mode upon image review - it always shows just the selected AF point (like the D5/D500).
At any rate, I don't think this confirms a problem with the Dynamic area in the D5/D500 one way or another since it uses a different AF module. Had it worked just like the D5/D500 I think we could assume that Dynamic mode behaviour was officially changed, but I think we'll have to wait till the D820 to really find out. If the D820 works like this camera, then there is something amiss with the Dynamic mode on the D5/D500. If it's the same, then - for better or worse - that's just the way it is.
More to come and I'll be doing a full review of the D7500 after 4-6 weeks of actual use (I hate it when reviewers go out and use a camera for a day and then review it - I like to really get to know the ins and outs before I review). If I stumble across any other Dynamic AF info I'll pass it along here, otherwise the rest will be in the upcoming review. ...Show more →
Thanks Steve, I guess we will have to wait for D820 to see if they make any changes to the behaviour with (presumed) same AF module as D5/D500.
p.25 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
arbitrage wrote:
Thanks Steve, I guess we will have to wait for D820 to see if they make any changes to the behaviour with (presumed) same AF module as D5/D500.
Fingers crossed for a an announcement in the near future
Yes, the new Nikon AF guide does cover it (and lots more of course 
!