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Archive 2017 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue

  
 
Steve Perry
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p.20 #1 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


aflundi wrote:
I had missed that part, and just tried it. You're right that does make it much less of a problem for real-world use -- perhaps even to the point of not being much of an issue. It's still a bug, but given this, probably not too pressing.

BTW Steve, how is all this affecting your AF book?


It did put the book behind a little, but it looks like I'll have it out this week 450 pages of Nikon AF goodness



Mar 26, 2017 at 08:48 PM
arbitrage
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p.20 #2 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
A "Bug" is only a bug when it is NOT working "as designed".

Nikon's response seems to indicate that AF (in both the D5 and in the D500) is working "As Designed" even if the new AF technology may not work in the way that certain users think it should work.

The point is surely that the AF is working in ALL area modes when the photographer makes the correct menu settings; selects an appropriate Area Mode for his purpose; and then understands how to use it?!

I simply don't understand what all this fuss is about.


Well the AF does work really well. The fuss is about three (four on D5) AF modes that are basically useless compared to just using single point. Where as these modes could be made to actually serve a purpose if they worked as they used to. Unfortunately they really don't do much at all.



Mar 26, 2017 at 09:47 PM
AnnJS
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p.20 #3 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


I have used D25 on BIFs (it becomes necessary when shooting a 300mm PF with a TC-20) and the bursts have retained the Lock.

So I still don't understand why others are having so much difficulty.

(However, my first choice for most moving wildlife and other Action shots does remain 3D Tracking when it's available.)



Mar 26, 2017 at 11:32 PM
daves cliches
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p.20 #4 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
I have used D25 on BIFs (it becomes necessary when shooting a 300mm PF with a TC-20) and the bursts have retained the Lock.

So I still don't understand why others are having so much difficulty.

(However, my first choice for most moving wildlife and other Action shots does remain 3D Tracking when it's available.)


Maybe it's because you are using the D5, the AF coverage is way smaller than that of the D500 which effectively covers two thirds of the frame. I know that having got used to the D7100 and now the using the D500 when I picked up my D750 it always "bumps" me that you are operating around far lesser area.
The D5's AF coverage is little bigger but in the case of BIF you are still operating more round a more central area.
Also, in terms of field of view if you are using a 600mm lens on the D500 it effectively has a field of view of 900mm so following birds is 1.5 times more difficult.
Importantly, I don't think anybody is saying that AF in the D5/D500 isn't capable, but I was used to the D7100's dynamic mode and it was very useful for tracking diving and weaving terns when it is a futile task trying to keep an AF point on the bird, now that useful facility just isn't there.
I don't see any advantage in this dynamic mode in it's present form.

Lastly there should be some responsibility from Nikon towards their clients to deliver like it says on the can, it's not like the posters here are non smokers complaining about the lack of ashtrays in their latest Ferraris.

Fuji would have been on the case pretty quick that's for sure!



Mar 27, 2017 at 02:18 AM
chambeshi
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p.20 #5 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
In my mind, a very similar thing can be accomplished by using a smaller Dynamic area and an appropriate delay under A3. This is especially true with the D5's d9 Dynamic area (should add one to the D500 - it needs it more due to the larger relative size of the AF field in the viewfinder). Simply keep your smaller AF area where you want it on the target, if it slips off for a second or two the camera waits while you reacquire.

The downside is that instead of actively tracking when you fall off target (like with
...Show more

Wise words....

Would it not be extremely useful to compile a Comparative Table for DSLR AF settings/performance/roles? This will compares the differences and roles of the settings under each AF Mode for those core Nikon DSLRs relevant to action photography [D3, D4, D4s, D5, D750, D810, D7100, D7200, D500]. The majority of new users of the latest top-end DSLR, like the D5 or D500, will have prior experience with established cameras, and reliable comparisons are vital to know what's new and different etc.
It will be even more useful with explanatory notes summarizing how to use the respective Mode(s) for its different subject category. There are more than capable experts who hold this hard-won experience in sport and wildlife.
The variables that determining the optimal role of each AF Category include: Target Relative-Size; Speed; Degree of Erratic Movement, where 'Erratic' arguably varies from negligible (Straight) to Extreme (e.g. Swift-like agility of small, fast BIFs].
The Condition variables influencing AF performance include: Ambient Light; Clutter (i.e. helmets, sticks, legs, wings); Ambient Background, and also differences between DSLRs, pertinently Dynamic Area.

It would seem that usage of Clutter primarily includes objects in the field of view of similar character to the focal subject, while backgrounds are typically beyond the desired plane of focus (where the camera too often tries to refocus on the background).

A Word or Excel table (with tracked changes) is one way to populate and tweak the respective cells in the Table.

Well, writing the wishlist above makes me realize that Nikon should feature such a Table prominently in their Manuals and online Tech Notes

kind regards

Woody



Mar 27, 2017 at 04:01 AM
arbitrage
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p.20 #6 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
I have used D25 on BIFs (it becomes necessary when shooting a 300mm PF with a TC-20) and the bursts have retained the Lock.

So I still don't understand why others are having so much difficulty.

(However, my first choice for most moving wildlife and other Action shots does remain 3D Tracking when it's available.)


Again, I haven't read anyone saying they are having difficulty with D25. All we are saying is effectively it doesn't work any differently than just using single point. That said, it is handing off points as confirmed by the dive into EXIF but still the way it is programmed to do it won't give much benefit. I and most if not all others in this thread also have used D25 for BIF and it has retained the lock. My guess is that if one is having good success with D25 (or the other D modes) that one would have just as much success with single point. At least with single point you retain absolute control and knowledge of where focus is landing and because the Dynamic modes aren't doing much in switching and tracking with other points, IMO I would just use single point instead of any of the Dynamic modes. If I had the D5 I would also consider D9.



Mar 27, 2017 at 07:41 AM
chambeshi
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p.20 #7 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Howard Kearley wrote:
Only thing come out of that is they officially say Dynamic AF has changed.

On the phone I asked him to sell me the benefits of the NEW dynamic AF, he was unable too!

Howard.

With, yet again, a Nikon's employee being, of little, if any, practicable help, what is the role of Nikon Ambassadors in such cases? Logically, they should share their expertise and help users trying to solve problems, especially in this case with flagship products? Does not Nikon recognize some of these Ambassadors for their high profile in sports and wildlife photography?
This is crucial where paid Nikon Service blocks resolution - and too many of us veteran Nikonians are treated as the proverbial field of mushrooms. It remains very, very difficult to get beyond Nikon's outer Bureaucratic Carapace...and convey messages to those who need to hear them.



Mar 27, 2017 at 07:51 AM
aflundi
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p.20 #8 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
It did put the book behind a little, but it looks like I'll have it out this week 450 pages of Nikon AF goodness


Sweet! I'm definitely looking forward to it.




Mar 27, 2017 at 08:48 AM
henry albert
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p.20 #9 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


arbitrage wrote:
Again, I haven't read anyone saying they are having difficulty with D25. All we are saying is effectively it doesn't work any differently than just using single point.


D25 seems to behave identically to the others. All the dynamic modes have the save issue of moving off the target too quickly -- nearly instantaneously -- and switching to a new target. I've slowed mine down with the blocked shot menu item.




Mar 27, 2017 at 08:50 AM
aflundi
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p.20 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


chambeshi wrote:
Would it not be extremely useful to compile a Comparative Table for DSLR AF settings/performance/roles? [ ... ]

It's not a spreadsheet, but otherwise I think you just described Steve's soon-to-be-release ebook.



Mar 27, 2017 at 08:58 AM
birdied
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p.20 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


AnnJS wrote:
I have used D25 on BIFs (it becomes necessary when shooting a 300mm PF with a TC-20) and the bursts have retained the Lock.

So I still don't understand why others are having so much difficulty.

(However, my first choice for most moving wildlife and other Action shots does remain 3D Tracking when it's available.)



Ann, it is wonderful that things are working well for you with the subjects you shoot.

However, there are many of us that find the change problematic for our subject matter. I do not have a D5, only the D810 and the D500. Therefore I can not state anything about how a D5 performs. However, I can say it is more difficult for me now using the D500. In the past have used the D7000, D800 as well.

The change in the dynamic focusing is a problem for what I shoot - bees, insects , butterflies and hummingbirds all in flight. They are challenging subjects as they are erratic and fast, with the hummers not so erratic. In addition they are normally not against a blue sky, but a close background . The colors of the background and the subject can be in the same tones .

These circumstances challenge any focusing system . However, the new changes make it more difficult .

My experience is as Henry Albert stated above and changing the delay to 4 or 5 seems to be helping.

Ann, I don't think anyone has or is challenging your succes with the new system, only asking that you consider the fact that the new dynamic focusing under different circumstances and subjects does not function as well as it does for you.

I would like to thank Steve and everyone who has worked to identify this issue , to offer explanations and suggestions. They have been very educational and helpful for me.

Birdie















Edited on Mar 28, 2017 at 09:13 AM · View previous versions



Mar 27, 2017 at 09:34 AM
chambeshi
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p.20 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


birdied wrote:
..... that the new dynamic focusing under different circumstances and subjects does not function as well as it does for you.

I would like to thank Steve and everyone who has worked to identify this issue , to offer explanations and suggestions. They have been very educational and helpful for me.

Birdie


Hear ! Hear!

aflundi wrote:
It's not a spreadsheet, but otherwise I think you just described Steve's soon-to-be-release ebook.


Eagerly Awaited



Mar 27, 2017 at 10:01 AM
elkhornsun
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p.20 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


I find it amazing that so little usable information could be provided on a thread with 20 pages of posts. Since owning the D1x and D100 cameras, each subsequent model had a different autofocus system and I had to adjust to how it worked and learn its limitations. Going from the D2x to the D3 was the biggest adjustment as the new autofocus system performance was much worse in low light and had a strong tendency to backfocus if the background was brighter than the subject.

The AF system introduced in the D3 in 2007 has not been significantly updated until the D5/D500 and as always I have had to experiment, as Steve Perry has done, to determine what works best in any given situation. Group AF is useless on my D750 but fantastic on my D500. Dynamic AF performance is going to be quite different when there are up to 3x as many cross type AF sensors (when not using a telephoto lens) and a dedicated AF processor as with the D5 and D500. Nothing surprising about this and it means more experimentation to determine the best mode and setting for situations.

What is important is to understand how the different AF modes work and so understand the limitations of each mode. For instance, Group AF mode will track the nearest subject to the camera in a scene and so will succeed or fail depending on the situation.

Nikon tries to help by producing supplemental guides like their D500 Pro Technical Guide for Sports, but being oriented toward sports shooters the guides are of very limited value and only a starting point for non-sports shooters dealing with much worse lighting and much smaller and faster subjects.

The guide does provide tips for sports that may apply in other situations. With a high diver the Nikon D500 guide recommends for a low contrast background using 3-D tracking but with a high contrast background it instead recommends using 72-point Dynamic Area AF instead.





Mar 27, 2017 at 01:18 PM
daves cliches
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p.20 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue



Right on!

Lovely images!!



Mar 27, 2017 at 02:30 PM
multibit
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p.20 #15 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


birdied wrote:
Ann, it is wonderful that things are working well for you with the subjects you shoot.

However, there are many of us that find the change problematic for our subject matter. I do not have a D5, only the D810 and the D500. Therefore I can not state anything about how a D5 performs. However, I can say it is more difficult for me now using the D500. In the past have used the D7000, D800 as well.

The change in the dynamic focusing is a problem for what I shoot - bees, insects , butterflies and hummingbirds all in flight. They
...Show more

I love to shoot bees and flying insects and was going to ask whats the recommended AF setting on the D500. Going from my old D7000 to the D500 I was looking forward to trying out some bee shots now the weather is getting warmer over here . Those are some beautiful shots ^^^
I noticed group wasn't working for me trying to get small low flying birds with grass/trees in the background so not sure whats best in those conditions. I've only had the D500 a few weeks and finding it an improvement over the D7000



Mar 27, 2017 at 04:05 PM
arbitrage
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p.20 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


henry albert wrote:
D25 seems to behave identically to the others. All the dynamic modes have the save issue of moving off the target too quickly -- nearly instantaneously -- and switching to a new target. I've slowed mine down with the blocked shot menu item.



Oh, I agree. I wasn't trying to say there is any difference with D25 vs the other D modes. I was just referencing Ann's comment about D25 working good for her. It is working good for me also but I'm sure single would be working equally and Dynamic isn't giving me benefit and possibly could give issues because you never know for sure what point is active and what it is locked onto.



Mar 27, 2017 at 06:28 PM
Frode
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p.20 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Amen!

elkhornsun wrote:
I find it amazing that so little usable information could be provided on a thread with 20 pages of posts. Since owning the D1x and D100 cameras, each subsequent model had a different autofocus system and I had to adjust to how it worked and learn its limitations. Going from the D2x to the D3 was the biggest adjustment as the new autofocus system performance was much worse in low light and had a strong tendency to backfocus if the background was brighter than the subject.

The AF system introduced in the D3 in 2007 has not been significantly updated
...Show more



Mar 28, 2017 at 12:05 AM
Frode
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p.20 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Smart move this thread............................

With all respect, I have MUCH more trust in professionals at Nikon, rather on individuals trying to make money on a, the way I see it, a constructed "problem".

Hmmm, wonder how other great photographers using their D5/500 manage to get great pictures...faulty AF- system.....Come on! User error, bad technique.

People should listen to what Nikon suggest - pro PDF (AF). Been frustrated myself some time ago regarding AF problems. All Thanks to some individuals saying this/that.

Nothing wrong with D5/500 AF!

Steve Perry wrote:
It did put the book behind a little, but it looks like I'll have it out this week 450 pages of Nikon AF goodness




Mar 28, 2017 at 12:08 AM
snapsy
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p.20 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Frode wrote:
Smart move this thread............................

With all respect, I have MUCH more trust in professionals at Nikon, rather on individuals trying to make money on a, the way I see it, a constructed "problem".

Hmmm, wonder how other great photographers using their D5/500 manage to get great pictures...faulty AF- system.....Come on! User error, bad technique.

People should listen to what Nikon suggest - pro PDF (AF). Been frustrated myself some time ago regarding AF problems. All Thanks to some individuals saying this/that.

Nothing wrong with D5/500 AF!


You're placing trust in a company with a demonstrated track record of dodging responsibility for AF issues over a forum member with a long track record of providing free advice and content to thousands of photographers?

The D800/E left peripheral point AF issue affected approximately 25% of first-year production bodies by some measures (my own included), yet Nikon never officially admitted the issue. Trust is a great business benefit - it saved Nikon millions of dollars in avoided recall expenses.



Mar 28, 2017 at 01:29 AM
Frode
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p.20 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


snapsy wrote:
You're placing trust in a company with a demonstrated track record of dodging responsibility for AF issues over a forum member with a long track record of providing free advice and content to thousands of photographers?

The D800/E left peripheral point AF issue affected approximately 25% of first-year production bodies by some measures (my own included), yet Nikon never officially admitted the issue. Trust is a great business benefit - it saved Nikon millions of dollars in avoided recall expenses.


Yes.




Mar 28, 2017 at 03:23 AM
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