Ok, with additional testing I think I have found the primary difference between the D5/D500 and earlier cameras when in a dynamic mode... actually "I" didn't find it, it was mentioned earlier by Snapsy and Steve.
The new system is much faster and has many more AF points spaced much closer together... that's accepted and should be a bonus. And IMO it is in many/most situations.
The main difference/issue is that earlier cameras track in "blocked shot mode" and the new cameras track in "distance change mode." The "focus tracking with lock on" setting has always been described as a setting for "blocked shots" based on "change in distance," but the cameras are addressing those two aspects differently.
Earlier cameras will *not* shift to a more distant focus unless focus is lost. But they will shift to a nearer focus dependent on the delay setting (which goes from off to quite long). Exactly what you want for "blocked shot" and tracking.
The D5/D500 will shift to both a nearer AND a more distant focus, also dependent on the delay setting (which goes from short to really really short). This means the D5/D500 will happily jump to the BG if it reasonably can... and the system is so good/fast that it often can. Interestingly the delay setting is still called "blocked shot," but really has nothing to do with that.
Everything else I have found/identified/verified seems to be "the same," only faster/better... this one difference makes the D5/D500 dynamic modes worse in very demanding situations... exactly the situations where we depended on it to make up for other shortfalls.
Luckily auto and 3d modes have been greatly improved over previous models.
la puffin wrote:
For anyone who finds this "unworkable", I will buy a used D4s and trade it to you for your D5 (US and XQD version only).
Do you think the photography world begins and ends with your needs? That if something works for you, then it must be fine for everyone? You can keep your focus point on the eye of a merganser using the D5's dynamic default image block setting and get an acceptable image, thereby proving the rest of us to be incompetent hosers, as we simultaneously zoom and track high speed athletes through a chaotic scrum of bodies/arms/legs/sticks/helmets/gloves/direction changes and 10fps viewfinder blackouts, only to find the undocumented focusing system changes to be detrimental to our product?
Okay heres the response I received from Nikon UK today.
Dear Howard,
Thank you for your reply.
We have tested both the D500 and D810 cameras here and I can see the difference you have described in our phone conversations regarding how the AF dynamic focusing works.
However, this is not an indication there is a problem with your cameras. The D5 and D500 cameras use a different AF system to the D4 and D800 series cameras and the way the dynamic-area AF focus works in the D500 is different to the D4 and D810.
The camera will refocus to the background after a couple of seconds with the D500 camera where the D810 has to go outside the dynamic area in order for the camera to refocus on the background. Based on our tests this is expected operation.
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.
sk66 wrote:
Ok, with additional testing I think I have found the primary difference between the D5/D500 and earlier cameras when in a dynamic mode... actually "I" didn't find it, it was mentioned earlier by Snapsy and Steve.
The new system is much faster and has many more AF points spaced much closer together... that's accepted and should be a bonus. And IMO it is in many/most situations.
The main difference/issue is that earlier cameras track in "blocked shot mode" and the new cameras track in "distance change mode." The "focus tracking with lock on" setting has always been described as a setting for "blocked shots" based on "change in distance," but the cameras are addressing those two aspects differently.
Earlier cameras will *not* shift to a more distant focus unless focus is lost. But they will shift to a nearer focus dependent on the delay setting (which goes from off to quite long).
The D5/D500 will shift to both a nearer AND a more distant focus, also dependent on the delay setting (which goes from short to really really short). This means the D5/D500 will happily jump to the BG if it reasonably can... and the system is so good/fast that it often can.
Everything else I have found/identified/verified seems to be "the same," only faster/better... this one difference makes the D5/D500 dynamic modes worse in very demanding situations... exactly the situations where we depended on it to make up for other shortfalls.
Luckily auto and 3d modes have been greatly improved over previous models. ...Show more →
I'm feeling comfortable with a block/dynamic delay setting of 4 or 5. The faster the target and the more crowded the viewfinder, the slower I need it.
henry albert wrote:
I'm feeling comfortable with a block/dynamic delay setting of 4 or 5. The faster the target and the more crowded the viewfinder, the slower I need it.
I've been using d153 and a delay setting of 5/erratic for my testing as I think it's a "worse case" scenario... I'm also feeling comfortable with it set that way. But I still find the performance notably worse in very demanding situations. Granted, IMO the results from those situations probably will never be great images either way (distant subject, small in the frame).
Supposedly my findings/concerns are being passed to the "Nikon D5 expert"... I made a recommendation of a firmware fix that adds an option called "limit focus shift" or "blocked shot mode." I emphasized the benefit of this behavior for wildlife photographers shooting demanding subjects like birds in flight, and that wildlife photographers are a huge portion of the consumers purchasing the D5/D500. Even if they do listen, I wouldn't expect the change anytime soon.
henry albert wrote:
Do you think the photography world begins and ends with your needs? That if something works for you, then it must be fine for everyone?
Absolutely not! I used to do marketing for a software company in Silicon Valley and here's what I came up with.
Taking a cue from Apple's iPhone 5c...
The new Nikon D5c. Put in the legacy AF system of the D4s, knock off 15% of the MSRP and offer it in a collector's series of four different camouflage body covers. Also, change the shutter's pesky "click" to a "cluck" and never scare off the object of your viewfinder's affection.
See your target, fire off a burst - "cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck". What merganser is going to be scared of a chicken?
la puffin wrote:
The new Nikon D5c. Put in the legacy AF system if the D4s, knock off 15% of the MSRP and offer it in a collector's series of four different camouflage body covers. Also, change the shutter's pesky "click" to a "cluck" and never scare off the object of your viewfinder's affection.
See your target, fire off a burst - "cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck". What of merganser is going to be scared of a chicken?
I do wish the D5 had the D810's quieter shutter noise! But I suppose it just couldn't be as quick if it did (or last as long).
Howard Kearley wrote:
Okay heres the response I received from Nikon UK today.
Dear Howard,
Thank you for your reply.
We have tested both the D500 and D810 cameras here and I can see the difference you have described in our phone conversations regarding how the AF dynamic focusing works.
However, this is not an indication there is a problem with your cameras. The D5 and D500 cameras use a different AF system to the D4 and D800 series cameras and the way the dynamic-area AF focus works in the D500 is different to the D4 and D810.
The camera will refocus to the background after a couple of seconds with the D500 camera where the D810 has to go outside the dynamic area in order for the camera to refocus on the background. Based on our tests this is expected operation.
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.
p.18 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Howard Kearley wrote:
The camera will refocus to the background after a couple of seconds with the D500 camera where the D810 has to go outside the dynamic area in order for the camera to refocus on the background. Based on our tests this is expected operation.
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Kind regards,
Yeah, this is the "tech support" approach... if they are all the same, then *your camera doesn't have a problem.
p.18 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
AnnJS wrote:
I still think that the D5 AF is far better than it was in earlier cameras and that one simply has to adjust one's camera-handling to take full advantage of the new system instead of bewailing the fact that old habits no longer cut the mustard nor catch the bird.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that, overall, the Nikon D5/D500 AF is much better than earlier cameras. However, most of the participants in this thread believe that dynamic af modes are behaving very differently than with previous cameras. Many of us also believe that the D5/D500 AF would perform better if dynamic af worked more like it did in the D4s or D810.Rather than "bewailing" anything, this thread has given me a great deal of insight on how dynamic af on my D500 is actually working now. This knowledge will help me better understand when to use dynamic af modes.
I realized something was dramatically different with dynamic af on my D500 the first time I shot action with it. You, however, couldn't even figure it out after initially reading this thread, writing, "I must have either a unique or maverick copy of the D5."
Mar 24, 2017 at 05:03 PM
T-O Shooter Offline • • [X]
p.18 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
sk66 wrote:
Ok, with additional testing I think I have found the primary difference between the D5/D500 and earlier cameras when in a dynamic mode... actually "I" didn't find it, it was mentioned earlier by Snapsy and Steve.
The new system is much faster and has many more AF points spaced much closer together... that's accepted and should be a bonus. And IMO it is in many/most situations.
The main difference/issue is that earlier cameras track in "blocked shot mode" and the new cameras track in "distance change mode." The "focus tracking with lock on" setting has always been described as a setting for "blocked shots" based on "change in distance," but the cameras are addressing those two aspects differently.
Earlier cameras will *not* shift to a more distant focus unless focus is lost. But they will shift to a nearer focus dependent on the delay setting (which goes from off to quite long). Exactly what you want for "blocked shot" and tracking.
The D5/D500 will shift to both a nearer AND a more distant focus, also dependent on the delay setting (which goes from short to really really short). This means the D5/D500 will happily jump to the BG if it reasonably can... and the system is so good/fast that it often can. Interestingly the delay setting is still called "blocked shot," but really has nothing to do with that. ...Show more →
Still calling it "blocked shot" gives me the impression, right or wrong, that that was the way it was intended to work.
Everything else I have found/identified/verified seems to be "the same," only faster/better... this one difference makes the D5/D500 dynamic modes worse in very demanding situations... exactly the situations where we depended on it to make up for other shortfalls.
Luckily auto and 3d modes have been greatly improved over previous models.
p.18 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
la puffin wrote:
That leads again to what I posted about the D5 being a more sports oriented camera.... I can't imagine not wanting the camera to use the primary AF point when it can regain focus. Some other point taking over and tracking? That seems more like video. Reading here, the Dynamic behavior is mostly a problem for wildlife photographers. I haven't heard any sports shooter complain about the D5's Dynamic AF on sports specific forums. .
I've been reading back through this thread again, and it really seems to me that some people really don't understand why there are different af modes. I picked the quote above as just one example from this thread. The various dynamic af modes are there for situations when it is more difficult to keep the primary af point on the subject. With d25, you should be reasonably able to keep the intended subject (i.e. point of focus) in the central area of the viewfinder. As stated in the D500 manual (p. 103), you would use d153 " when photographing subjects that are moving quickly and can not be easily framed in the viewfinder." Bold and italics were added by me.
If you can keep that one tiny af point out of 153 on the eye of a barn swallow as it twists and turns, feeding on insects over a field or pond (as some in this thread must be able to do quite easily), then you certainly shouldn't be using d153. However, if you are like me and just hope to keep the barn swallow in the frame and under one of the focusing points, then d153 has a purpose. And when I am using d153 on a barn swallow, I don't want the point of AF to be switching back to the primary af point, because,I'm willing to bet that barn swallow won't be there.
p.18 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
In my discussions with other D5/D500 users elsewhere it seems the vast majority did not understand or really exploit the dynamic modes with earlier cameras and they haven't tried since upgrading.
If the dynamic modes (d9-d153) of the D5/D500 aren't ever causing you problems, then you probably shouldn't be using them in the first place... you should always use as few focus points as possible.
p.18 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
EdErkes wrote:
. . .
I realized something was dramatically different with dynamic af on my D500 the first time I shot action with it. You, however, couldn't even figure it out after initially reading this thread, writing, "I must have either a unique or maverick copy of the D5."
------------
Perhaps you misunderstood: my point was that I simply had not noticed that there was any difference because my D5 was performing brilliantly for me anyway!
The difference might be that after 60 years of handling cameras daily in my everyday profession I might have become slightly more adept at handling them and being able to keep a focus point on a target than others with less experience can do?
It also could be that I read the Manual and quickly adopted 3D TRACKING AF when actually tracking fast-moving targets. The Dynamic AF modes are NOT labelled "Tracking" and I am convinced that that was a deliberate decision by Nikon.
I think that photographers have two choices: either practice and become proficient at using a D5 and pushing it to its limits; or revert to a model which is more in tune with your capabilities and which allows you to work employing older, slower-working and ingrained methods with which you have become accustomed.
A D5 is not for everyone and may indeed prove to be "too much camera" for many people.
p.18 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
EdErkes wrote:
I've been reading back through this thread again, and it really seems to me that some people really don't understand why there are different af modes. I picked the quote above as just one example from this thread. The various dynamic af modes are there for situations when it is more difficult to keep the primary af point on the subject. With d25, you should be reasonably able to keep the intended subject (i.e. point of focus) in the central area of the viewfinder. As stated in the D500 manual (p. 103), you would use d153 " when photographing subjects that are moving quickly and can not be easily framed in the viewfinder." Bold and italics were added by me.
If you can keep that one tiny af point out of 153 on the eye of a barn swallow as it twists and turns, feeding on insects over a field or pond (as some in this thread must be able to do quite easily), then you certainly shouldn't be using d153. However, if you are like me and just hope to keep the barn swallow in the frame and under one of the focusing points, then d153 has a purpose. And when I am using d153 on a barn swallow, I don't want the point of AF to be switching back to the primary af point, because,I'm willing to bet that barn swallow won't be there. ...Show more →
No Ed, you've got my post wrong.
First of all, I shoot a plethora of sports, primarily with a D5, using single or D9. When I use a D500, it's single point only as D25 is too large of an area and I'm always shooting fast glass wide open.
I use Dynamic AF for when my primary point loses focus, the other points take over briefly. However, I'm always trying to get my primary AF point back on target. I want it switching back as soon as the primary point can. D9 works very well for me and has rescued shots. I don't think I've ever used D25 or the other higher dynamic settings as that would be too imprecise. I don't want those other points keeping focus when I'm back on target. That's usually pretty darn soon or I'm having a bad day.
p.18 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
AnnJS wrote:
The difference might be that after 60 years of handling cameras daily in my everyday profession I might have become slightly more adept at handling them and being able to keep a focus point on a target than others with less experience can do?
It also could be that I read the Manual and quickly adopted 3D TRACKING AF when actually tracking fast-moving targets. The Dynamic AF modes are NOT labelled "Tracking" and I am convinced that that was a deliberate decision by Nikon.
I think that photographers have two choices: either practice and become proficient at using a D5 and pushing it to its limits; or revert to a model which is more in tune with your capabilities and which allows you to work employing older, slower-working and ingrained methods with which you have become accustomed.
A D5 is not for everyone and may indeed prove to be "too much camera" for many people.
That all sounded/read as quite arrogant and dismissive...
FWIW, I've been photographing for the better part of 4 decades and using Nikons for over 3 decades. I've owned and used at least 8 Nikon DSLRs including all of the top models... and yes, I read the manuals. I can handle a camera as well as anyone.
If you believe that the dynamic modes were (are) not tracking modes, then you are seriously mistaken. I realize the name does not include the word, nor does the auto mode. All dynamic modes are tracking/moving. The differentiation for the 3D mode is to differentiate the fact that it is the only mode that uses "3D" color information.
The fact that you do not know this I can only assumes indicates a lack of experience with the various systems/modes.
