I've just had a thought about the D5/D500's dynamic modes tendency to revert to the initial AF point when it can easily.
IME, 95+% of action shots start with the center AF point selected. The only time I move it towards the periphery is when things are much slower and more planned. The side benefit of this is that the center portion of the AF field is where the majority of cross type sensors are located... and it's where the vast majority of AF points are located if the max aperture is smaller than f/5.6.
This *should* mean that, even if there are more images that are farther OOF from a sequence, more of the ones that are in focus should be at/near the max achievable.
arbitrage wrote:
Improvement for sure....
Usually group works okay if wings are up or if the wings are beating fast like hummers as it can't see them and grabs the body which is ideal. But for larger birds and even smaller ones close to you (like these mergansers) group will often grab near wing as was seen in the previous (now removed) image.
I have no issue using group on any BIF. First, holding on the head or neck gets you a sharp eye. Second, the wing is never an issue since I do not shoot birds that are flying away from me where the eye is likely obscured.
sk66 wrote:
I've been in discussion w/ Nikon tech support w/ little result...
I honestly do not see how group mode could possibly increase the keeper rate... other than requiring greater diligence in keeping the initially selected point/group on the desired spot.
I've been shooting mostly Short eared Owls and Northern Harriers in fields with tall grass surrounded by trees and with Dynamic it focused way more frequently on the background or foreground grasses and trees, not so with Group. BTW I've been shooting BIF for a while and don't have an issue on holding the focusing points on the target while panning in either Group or Dynamic.
viczig wrote:
I've been shooting mostly Short eared Owls and Northern Harriers in fields with tall grass surrounded by trees and with Dynamic it focused way more frequently on the background or foreground grasses and trees, not so with Group. BTW I've been shooting BIF for a while and don't have an issue on holding the focusing points on the target while panning in either Group or Dynamic.
I had similar results with different settings and the bird rather small w/in the FOV when shooting Northern Harriers. But I suspect it was technique/tracking... if you can keep the selected point on target there is absolutely no reason for focus to wander irregardless of the mode used.
This is a 3 shot burst "head on" sequence, full frame, no edits. D153/5/erratic. While the head stays near the center focus point (selected) it does not stay *on* the focus point. The focus has remained on the eyes for all 3 shots (expected as there is nothing good under the center AF point).
FWIW, these test shots I've been posting were only taken for testing AF performance/behavior. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have taken them at all (flat/poor/back lighting).
Next I need to find a reasonable subject w/ a cluttered background... And although I seldom ever shoot bursts over 3-5 shots, I suppose I should try longer.
sk66 wrote:
I have directed Nikon Tech to this thread... hopefully they will pop in and read through.
There have been a lot of people who have mentioned it to Nikon, so far, nothing useful but I think it has a cumulative effect. My hope is that if enough people mention / complain about the "issue" that Nikon will finally do something about it. It seems like a large, public outcry is about the only way to get their attention.
It could do with being brought out to a wider audience than just the confines of a forum....
and it would be informative for those who are head scratching.....
and there's nothing like a video to get to Nikon's underbelly, I don't believe they read forums as they don't understand english, but they understand images no problem.......
....especially if they are well focused.......if you excuse the "double entendre"!!
Steve Perry wrote:
There have been a lot of people who have mentioned it to Nikon, so far, nothing useful but I think it has a cumulative effect. My hope is that if enough people mention / complain about the "issue" that Nikon will finally do something about it. It seems like a large, public outcry is about the only way to get their attention.
Well, they are testing a D5 against other models at this point, rather than the initial "see pg xxx in the manual." And I've sent raw files upon their request... so it seems like I'm getting somewhere.
I'll contact Moose and see what he has to say about the subject.
p.16 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Sounds good guys.
I too sent images to Nikon and went back and forth, ultimately it ended up as a fruitless endeavor, but maybe now that they seen a few people asking the same thing they are looking into it a little deeper. Fingers crossed
p.16 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Moose Peterson said he has no clue why it changed or if it was intentional (I was hoping he would being a Nikon ambassador).
He uses single, group, and auto on the D5 FWIW (aviation/wildlife).
It's interesting to note that if matrix metering is enabled it activates scene recognition (even in manual mode) which also influences autofocus (3D/auto). I didn't ask if he uses matrix metering with auto AF...
p.16 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Just reposting comments from another photographer when asked about the AF issues:
"i read some parts of that thread and i can confirm. what used to be
Dynamic AF in behaviour is now 3D AF. but it is much better. pick a
starting point, let the camera keep that subject in focus. it works
pretty much flawlessly, except for cases where _visually_ very similar
targets are available ? think group of faces. then the AF will go nuts,
especially if you have lots of people with different distances towards
the camera.
since i have started working with the D500 last year in May, i did a lot
of situational testing and here is my usage:
Single Point AF ? almost all the time. move the point with the stick for
different compostitions or just leave it in the middle, zoom out and
crop later.
Dynamic Group 25 ? for predictable large singular targets that might
move erratically. used very rarely. on the D700 this was my go-to mode.
3D ? same as D25, but when i want to do recompositions on the spot
without much hassle. if i'd shoot birds in flight, that would be my
go-to mode.
for all of the above: i use AF-C and the AF-ON Button exclusively. i
deactivated the option to switch to AF-S completely. for precision work
i use a tripod and live-view with touch-to-focus and/or zoomed in manual
focus."
Asked if he shot BIF, he added:
"short honest answer: i don't.
my longest lens with AF on the Nikon is 150mm .. so it would be more
like "well, there's a bird _somewhere_ in that picture". ;-)
but the 3D-AF on the D500 is sticking to stuff like glue. as long as it
is visually distinct and you don't jump around like crazy. i use it when
i want to focus-recompose without drifting the focus back or forth. in
my experience that was not possible before due to the curvature of field
in lenses.
p.16 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Btw I've been working with Steve behind the scenes on some more AF experiments. One experiment we've performed is to create a moving, AF target on a computer display and compare how the D500 dynamic AF differs from previous generation bodies like a D7200. So far we've determined that both the D7200 and D500 will track the target onto adjacent points as reported by the AF point in the EXIF (my D500 is working better in this regard than Steve's but that may be a difference of displays).
We've also determined that both the D500 and D7200 will instantly switch back to the primary AF point if a second target appears on-screen under that primary AF point while the camera is still tracking the first target on an adjacent point. This means that the dynamic AF design will always switch immediately to the primary point if there is a subject at the same distance to the camera as the original tracking subject (which will be the case for these on-screen tests since the computer display is flat).
Here are web pages I've set up with animations if you'd like to try this yourself. The animation is smoothest on the Firefox browser for my system
Also, unrelated to this on-screen experiment we've also determined that both the D500 and previous generation bodies will switch back to the center point if a subject closer to the camera appears under the primary AF point. If you look back at Steve's original post you'll see that he was moving from a close subject -> distant subject - the D810 stuck with the close subject while the D5/D500 switched to the distant subject. If you reverse the movement so that you start with the distant subject then move to a closer subject, both cameras will switch to the closer subject.
This process is an attempt to fully understand which subject-changing scenarios (distance, contrast, size, movement speed) the D5/D500 will switch to the primary AF point whereas previous bodies don't.
p.16 #15 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
To add to the last paragraph above, note that the foreground target needs to be in close proximity to the primary target behind it for this to happen. For example, if you have one target at five feet in front of you and lock onto a target 20 feet away, it won't switch to the foreground target and will stick with the distant one. Again, this if for the D7200 and other previous generation cameras.
p.16 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
This is what Thom Hogan says about it:
"Nikon has not changed the way that Dynamic AF works. What has changed is the speed at which it works, which makes for a different behavior than people are expecting. Indeed, many people were using the old Dynamic AF modes BECAUSE they were acting slower. They essentially made for a useful tool for when you couldn't quite hold the camera steady, because they wouldn't immediately move off the selected focus point. Now they do because they're incredibly faster."
p.16 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
viczig wrote:
This is what Thom Hogan says about it:
"Nikon has not changed the way that Dynamic AF works. What has changed is the speed at which it works, which makes for a different behavior than people are expecting. Indeed, many people were using the old Dynamic AF modes BECAUSE they were acting slower. They essentially made for a useful tool for when you couldn't quite hold the camera steady, because they wouldn't immediately move off the selected focus point. Now they do because they're incredibly faster."
p.16 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
viczig wrote:
This is what Thom Hogan says about it:
"Nikon has not changed the way that Dynamic AF works. What has changed is the speed at which it works, which makes for a different behavior than people are expecting. Indeed, many people were using the old Dynamic AF modes BECAUSE they were acting slower. They essentially made for a useful tool for when you couldn't quite hold the camera steady, because they wouldn't immediately move off the selected focus point. Now they do because they're incredibly faster."
I like Thom, but just doesn't seem accurate.
If it was a speed issue then the D810 and other previous cameras would eventually switch back to the primary point just like the D5/D500 - it would just take longer to do it. We would also have noticed a gradual increase in the speed at which that occurred as the systems became faster. That's not what happening. Changing the speed of a system doesn't generally change behaviour. If I put Photoshop on a faster computer, Photoshop's behaviour doesn't change.
It's possible that the increase in speed allowed for a behaviour change on the programming side that wasn't possible before, but I doubt just an increase in speed changed the way it behaves.
p.16 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Steve Perry wrote:
To add to the last paragraph above, note that the foreground target needs to be in close proximity to the primary target behind it for this to happen. For example, if you have one target at five feet in front of you and lock onto a target 20 feet away, it won't switch to the foreground target and will stick with the distant one. Again, this if for the D7200 and other previous generation cameras.
That's the "blocked shot" response... for changes in distance when something comes between you and the subject. It's what I was describing earlier in that the D8xx and other cameras will refocus, but not as consistently/quickly as the D5/D500.
It's why I described the D5/D500 as being hyperactive...
However, I had become fairly convinced (w/ bench testing) that the tracking point had to be lost, and you're now saying that's not the case(?) w/ the moving target scenario... that's what I originally thought.
p.16 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue
Steve Perry wrote:
I like Thom, but just doesn't seem accurate.
If it was a speed issue then the D810 and other previous cameras would eventually switch back to the primary point just like the D5/D500 - it would just take longer to do it. We would also have noticed a gradual increase in the speed at which that occurred as the systems became faster. That's not what happening. Changing the speed of a system doesn't generally change behaviour. If I put Photoshop on a faster computer, Photoshop's behaviour doesn't change.
It's possible that the increase in speed allowed for a behaviour change on the programming side that wasn't possible before, but I doubt just an increase in speed changed the way it behaves. ...Show more →
By switching to a dedicated AF sensor it is possible that it significantly increased the speed and sensitivity(range). I.e. the incremental increases in AF performance really were not enough to be noticed as such... let's face it, tracking birds in flight was never entirely reliable and it's easy to discount a change in behavior as being something else.
I had a lens develop focusing issues... it took quite a while and it had to get quite bad before I started looking for equipment issues.
