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Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing

  
 
artur5
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p.7 #1 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Hi mementox.
Sorry but I have no technical knowledge to answer your questions. so I won't be of much help. I can only offer uneducated gueses :
In all likelihood Contax G lenses have sufficient margin for allowing infinity focus if the focal lenght is reduced only a bit. As you saw in Haruhiko's bridge pictures with the G28 and G21, that seems to be a proved fact. As stated before, 0.5mm. of margin are probably enough in most cases. A different case are the Leica M mount lenses with hard stop, where we'd need to grind significantly the adapter, which is a very tiresome task. Another solution might be the Hawks helical adapter with adjustable infinity stop. Only a practical test would confirm if the "adjustability" of this adapter is enough for our purposes.
Very interesting what you say in the last paragraph, but I have no idea if this is possible. Let's the experts talk.



Nov 08, 2016 at 09:04 AM
Brandon Dube
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p.7 #2 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


mementox wrote:
Hi all, I just registered here because of this highly interesting thread. Have three short questions to begin with ...

1. Is it really astigmatism that is to be corrected, or coma?

2. I understand that a simple lens with f=1m or even f=2m etc. reduces the chance to get to infinity as it basically works like a weak closeup lens, so what it does (apart from counter correction of the error that is introduced by the sensor glas) is that it basically shortens the lens' effective focal length.
Now I understand that even the Contax G lenses probably won't have sufficient "back
...Show more

1. It is astigmatism, field curvature, spherical aberration, and lateral color; roughly in that order of magnitude.

2. Your understanding is essentially correct. If you use a lens with a shorter focal length, the infinity focus will be compromised further.

3. A two-lens corrector could be designed to minimize the new aberrations, but is not needed. The astigmatism can be reduced almost 100% by a single meniscus lens. You can even make the meniscus lens have a very large focal length, e.g. 4m, 10m, 20m... Two elements would be needed to fix the lateral color, but astigmatism and petzval are well corrected with just one meniscus.



Nov 10, 2016 at 03:20 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.7 #3 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Was anyone able to figure out what worked best for the Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 ZM?


Nov 22, 2016 at 12:54 AM
candreyo
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p.7 #4 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Hi Fred,

I have tried 1m,1.5m and 2m Plano Convex/ Zeiss Proxar lenses on it, and all different combos did not improve the corners, some even made them worse.

The 2m Proxar had the best results, but the gain was negligible. Reversing the Proxar degraded image quality also.

However, with the Zeiss 25mm and 28mm Biogon ZM's; this is a different story!

The 1m Proxar did absolute wonders on the Zeiss 28mm, resulting in the corners being extremely sharp even wide open.
The same results happened with a 1.5m OptoSigma Plano Convex on the Zeiss 25mm, absolutely stunning performance in the corners even wide open.
The results are very similar to the OP photos of the Biogon 28mm and 21mm Contax results, if not better.
Apologies for not having any test photos to show, this is something I'm planning on in the future, just so busy at the moment.

I even was able to adjust them to reach infinity and accurately focus with the rangefinder on my Leica M240. I unscrewed the rear of each lens block, and there were multiple brass shims in each lens. I removed 2 shims from the 28mm, and 3 shims from the 25mm. This brought the rear element block closer to the sensor, and allowed me to reach infinity with them on the Leica camera, rangefinder focusing throughout the range was spot on. The Planoconvex/ Proxar lenses on the Biogon on my Leica M240 had no noticeable degradation in quality, and the extreme corners were as sharp as with my Sony A7RII.

Sorry I don't have good news about the 35mm Distagon ZM though. But I'm ecstatic that the Biogons improved so much! I was seriously thinking of sending away my Sony to get the Kolari mod done so I could use the Biogons, but now no need, as they are as perfect as I could hope for on my Sony now.



Nov 22, 2016 at 01:13 AM
artur5
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p.7 #5 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


As they say, my mileage varies.
I tried 1m and 1.4m. close up lenses ( both meniscus) on my A7II and the Biogon G28. The results were a mixed bag. Corners certainly improved with respect to using a ‘naked’ lens, but not in the grade I was expecting. Even at f/8 there was still some smearing. The worse part was that for getting the best corner I had to focus accurately with image magnification on the corner and then center wasn’t as sharp. If I focused on the center, the corners blurred somehow. Of course, this FC exists as well using the lens alone but I was hoping for more improvement. Both lenses (1m and 1.4m) gave similar results. Reversing them was absolutely a no go. Terrible edges/corners, Worse still than using no corrective element.
Reaching infinity wasn’t a problem because G lenses seem to have enough margin past infinity to cope with the focus shift produced by the additional lens. Out of curiosity, I tried stacking both the 1m ad 1.4m., elements (equivalent to a 0.58m lens) and then I was unable to get infinity.
In short, I had great expectations that weren’t fulfilled, at least with those close-up lenses and the Biogon G 28. Although I got real improvement, having to focus in the corners and losing centre sharpness is a real annoyance and a front "filter" is more prone to catch reflections and flare with strong lights in the image. I had enough of that with the Leica M8 and the IR/UV filters.
For the moment, I’m sticking with MF SLR glass, as I haven’t any other RF wide and there’re already enough FE native alternatives to consider (albeit expensive)
Can’t blame my Biogon G28, he’s not responsible for Sony’s filter stack but I’m afraid he’s going to Ebay right now.



Nov 22, 2016 at 04:00 AM
leolab
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p.7 #6 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Folks

I have Contax g 21 and would desperately like to use on A7rII but corners are awful.

I read through this entire thread and I am concluding that buying plano-convex lens with f=1500mm is all i need for decent performance? This is just a Close-up lens with 0.7 diopter correct?

Thx for help



Nov 22, 2016 at 06:59 PM
HaruhikoT
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p.7 #7 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


leolab wrote:
Folks

I have Contax g 21 and would desperately like to use on A7rII but corners are awful.

I read through this entire thread and I am concluding that buying plano-convex lens with f=1500mm is all i need for decent performance? This is just a Close-up lens with 0.7 diopter correct?

Thx for help


For G21, currently I can only recommend the Optosigma's SLB-50-1500PM, which is f=1.5m (=0.67 diopter) Plano-Convex lens with good AR coating.

Some close-up filters (e.g. Nikon Close-up No.0) seem to have similar diopter but as I know they are all Meniscus.
Plano-Convex and Meniscus behave differently to field curvature even if they have exactly the same diopter.
So, corner results using those Meniscus close-up filter will be different (some cases good, some cases bad) from Plano-Convex.



Nov 23, 2016 at 01:07 AM
candreyo
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p.7 #8 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


I can second the quality of the OptoSigma lenses, I have the SLB-50-1500PM, and it works very well on my Zeiss 25mm Biogon ZM. Depending where you live, there may be a long wait time for it, as it's a specialty item.

If you live in Europe, Laser2000 carries them, but I had a 3 week lead time when ordering mine. You could try your luck with a 1500mm Proxar lens off eBay (made by Zeiss for Hasselblad), which I think in theory should work well also. I used a 1000mm Proxar for my Zeiss 28mm ZM, and the lens came out to approx. 8.00 British Pounds!

If you use Proxar lenses, you will need a slightly larger filter housing to hold them. I used a 46 to 55mm step up, then held it in place with a 55mm UV filter housing (with the UV glass removed). The Proxar lenses are 52mm in diameter, and don't fit inside a 52mm filter housing, they are just a tad to large.



Nov 23, 2016 at 04:10 AM
artur5
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p.7 #9 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


HaruhikoT wrote:
For G21, currently I can only recommend the Optosigma's SLB-50-1500PM, which is f=1.5m (=0.67 diopter) Plano-Convex lens with good AR coating.

Some close-up filters (e.g. Nikon Close-up No.0) seem to have similar diopter but as I know they are all Meniscus.
Plano-Convex and Meniscus behave differently to field curvature even if they have exactly the same diopter.
So, corner results using those Meniscus close-up filter will be different (some cases good, some cases bad) from Plano-Convex.

If you read my post above, you'll see that the Nikon No.0 ( +0.7 diopter = 1.4m) didn't perform very well with the G28 and the A7II. A Hoya +1 diopter close-up gave equally mediocre performance. Both are meniscus. I wouldn't advice anybody to buy close-up lenses for this purpose. Of course, if you own them already it's worth trying. Maybe with other main lenses they will perform better.




Nov 23, 2016 at 05:16 AM
leolab
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p.7 #10 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Thx folks for help.

I guess i'll have to spring for the opto-sigma lens...right now they are telling me its likely early next year before they get more in stock.



Nov 23, 2016 at 06:55 AM
 


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leolab
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p.7 #11 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Guys

Another quick question

It sounds like optimum for Contax G 21 and 28 is f=1300 plano-convex lens, I see that I can get a f=1200 or the f=1500, which do you guys think would be best?

Thx



Nov 24, 2016 at 11:53 AM
HaruhikoT
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p.7 #12 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


leolab wrote:
Guys

Another quick question

It sounds like optimum for Contax G 21 and 28 is f=1300 plano-convex lens, I see that I can get a f=1200 or the f=1500, which do you guys think would be best?

Thx


Simulation results of G21 show reversely attached f=1500 gives better sharpness than f=1200 at extreme corner.
My last uploaded sample photos use this reversed f=1500 setup.
Also, f=1500 gives smaller 1.8% distortion while f=1200 gives 2.5% (G21).
So I recommend 1500.



Nov 24, 2016 at 08:21 PM
leolab
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p.7 #13 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Thx again for your insights


Nov 24, 2016 at 08:42 PM
candreyo
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p.7 #14 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Greetings All,

Just wanted to update some of you, I've finally gotten all my Zeiss ZM wide angle lenses to work absolutely superb with my Sony A7Rii.

For people's info, the following Planoconvex/ Proxar lenses were used to get me there, and what I had to do to in terms of removing internal shims to get them to focus to infinity and focus accurately on Leica M rangefinders. I used OptoSigma Planoconvex and Zeiss Proxar lenses. With the Zeiss Proxar lenses, I removed them from their Hasseblad bayonets. Both types of lenses were held in place with the appropriate step up or down filters. In the case of the Biogons, I used a 46mm to 55mm step up, and the 18mm Distagon, I used a 58mm to 55mm step down. Testing them out, they seem to be at least as flare resistant as without having them on. The OptoSigma lens is multi coated, and with the Zeiss Proxars, I believe they have the T* coatings.


Zeiss ZM 28mm Biogon: added a 1m Zeiss Proxar lens to the front, and unscrewing the rear element with camera spanners, I removed 2 internal brass shins

Zeiss ZM 25mm Biogon: added a 1.5m OptoSigma Planoconvex lens to the front, then unscrewing the rear element, removed 3 internal brass shims

Zeiss ZM 18mm Distagon: added a 0.5m Zeiss Proxar lens, then again unscrewing the rear retention ring, removed all shins (2 small and 2 thick brass shims)

I was then able to achieve infinite focus with the corrections lenses attached, and rangefinder focus worked accurately. I tested rangefinder focus with a calibrated Leica M 240.

With the attached correction lenses on all lenses tested above, the corner smearing is nearly gone. The sharpness boost is quite substantial, and I hope to post photos at a later date.

One thing to note, with the 18mm Distagon, it has changed the field of view slightly. I'd say the lens has now become a 19mm lens, if this makes sense. I have a Voigtlander 21mm lens I compared it to, and with the Proxar lens attached, it is still wider then the 21mm lens, but definitely has lost some of its field of view. I'd say it's closer to a 19-19.5mm lens now.

I'm happy to live with this, as the corner are so sharp now, even with the Proxar attached, that I wouldn't go back. I compared the corrected Distagon to the uncorrected version. The outer 20% of the lens was blurry without the Proxar. With the Proxar on, nothing is really blurry except the outer 2% maybe. Even if you say I lost about 5% of the total image field, I will take this, as I still gain a massive boost in the other 15% of the outter image.

The Proxar lens on the Distagon has had another unexpected affect also, the focus field was curved prior to correction, so that the corners were in a different focus field as opposed to the centre, it was not flat at all. With Proxar attached, the focus field is as flat as can be.

This also happened to the Biogons aswell with the correction lenses installed on the front, the focus field became more flat.

Cost of these conversions was:
1x OptoSigma 1.5m Planoconvex: 86.00 GBP
1x Zeiss Proxar 1.0m in B57 Hasselblad mount (used off eBay): 7.33GBP
1x Zeiss Proxar 0.5m in B57 Haselblad mount (off eBay again): 7.33GBP also
2x 46mm to 55mm step up rings: 1.99GBP each
1x 58mm to 55mm step down ring: 3.39GBP
2x 55mm UV filters (need the internal retention rings to use in the step up filters): 1.99 ea.

I did not need a rentention ring on the 18mm Distagon, as the step down filters internal diameter had a lip below the 55mm thread which had a smaller inside diameter then 55mm. I instead laid the lens against the front of the 18mm Distagon, placed a strip of nitrile rubber completely around it to hold it in the centre, and used the step down ring to lock it in place against the Proxar lens. I really didn't need the rubber strips, but wanted to ensure the lens was in the centre before screwing down the step down ring onto it.

So, for roughly 125.00GBP, I was able to correct 3 different Zeiss ZM lenses.
This is much cheaper then the Kolar Mod, and the great thing is, all this is easily reversible, and I would argue the results are as good as the Kolari Mod would be, if not better. I can reverse the mod in probably less then a few minutes by simply removing the correction lenses and reinstalling the shins. Shin removal and install is very easy on these Zeiss ZM lenses.

If anyone has ever had a Jupiter 3 or 8, you'll know how easy it is to adjust by simply unscrewing the front of the lens away from the body, revealing the shins.
The Zeiss lenses are similar, but instead of unscrewing the front, the rear ring needs removing with camera spanners, exposing the shins that way.

My native Sony FE lenses also get to use the sensor with the filter stack they were designed for.

If anyone is interested in adapting any of their Zeiss ZM lenses in this fashion, just let me know, and I'm more then eager to assist in any way I can.
I'm very excited an inexpensive cure has been found for my wide angle Zeiss ZM lenses that is non destructive, completely reversible and works extremely well.!😀
Hope this helps!




Dec 05, 2016 at 07:57 PM
BastianK
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p.7 #15 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


A question to those that have tried the ZM 35mm 1.4:

As written here:
candreyo wrote:
I have tried 1m,1.5m and 2m Plano Convex/ Zeiss Proxar lenses on it, and all different combos did not improve the corners, some even made them worse.

I get corner sharpness wasn't improved, but did it help the field curvature in any way nevertheless?

I am much more bothered by the sometimes whacky bokeh because of the filter stack than I am by the reduced sharpness in the corners.



Dec 06, 2016 at 01:25 AM
Phillip Reeve
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p.7 #16 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


candreyo wrote:
Greetings All,

Just wanted to update some of you, I've finally gotten all my Zeiss ZM wide angle lenses to work absolutely superb with my Sony A7Rii.

I look forward to your images



Dec 06, 2016 at 01:49 AM
wstam
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p.7 #17 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Hi Candreyo, thanks for the details. I have a Zeiss ZM 25mm. I am interested to give it a try. Also have the ZM 35mm 1.4.

For the 1.5m OptoSigma Planoconvex lens, are you referring to this:
Plano Convex Lenses (BK7 φ30 − φ50) | OptoSigma

I am from Asia so I may try to get from this link.

I have never modified any lens before so I am not so clear what exactly are the rear element and brass shims. Are you able to post a photo of your lens's rear?

Is the OptoSigma lens to be housed in the 46mm to 55mm step up ring? I read from the above link the diameter of the lens is 50mm. So why 55mm? Will 46-52mm better fix? Are you able to post a photo of your adapted lens?

Thanks again. I am excited in seeing the results.




Dec 06, 2016 at 02:01 AM
candreyo
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p.7 #18 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Hi,

I would attach photos, but it appears because I'm a new user, I can attach until 25 posts. So I'm working on getting these to my website and linking from there.

With regards to the 35mm ZM Distagon, I will check the field curvature this evening hopefully, as I still have the Proxar 2m I bought for it.

With regards to Bokeh, I haven't noticed any ill effects yet, but thanks for pointing this out. I'll hopefully do some experiments soon, and try to see if there is any weird artifacts and Proxar or Planoconvex lenses are causing.

With regards to why I used 55mm, the OptoSigma lens is a nice round 50mm, and a 46mm to 52mm step up should work fine. I went a bit wider and used a 55mm to avoid any vignetting and because the Proxar lenses are actually about 52.5-53mm in diameter. I ordered my filter stack up to hold the lenses based off the OPs recommendations and went from there.

I had just realised, instead of using a UV filter retention ring that was 52mm, I used a 55 to 52mm step down ring as the retention ring on the Zeiss ZM 25mm. So it's a 46-55 step up, then insert the lens, then screw it down with 55-52 step down. Apologies for the confusion, I had posted here late last night.

I will try to get some photos for you so it's no clear, but with the restriction on posting images because I have less then 25 posts, I have to upload them to my website.



Dec 06, 2016 at 03:07 AM
BastianK
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p.7 #19 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


candreyo wrote:
With regards to the 35mm ZM Distagon, I will check the field curvature this evening hopefully, as I still have the Proxar 2m I bought for it.

With regards to Bokeh, I haven't noticed any ill effects yet, but thanks for pointing this out. I'll hopefully do some experiments soon, and try to see if there is any weird artifacts and Proxar or Planoconvex lenses are causing.


I will gladly show you two examples what to look for:

This was shot at f/2.0 with the Voigtlander Ultron 28mm 2.0, focus distance was ~1m:
Chair by Bastian.K, auf Flickr
You can see the background in the center is out of focus while the background towards the borders is almost as much in focus as the chair in the foreground because of the field curvature.

Same is true for the ZM 35mm 1.4:
Zeiss_ZM_35mm_1.4_T*_Distagon by Bastian Kratzke, auf Flickr
The tree near the border is not as much out of focus as the one in the midframe, same goes for the bridge on the right hand side.

So if any of your front lenses helps here, despite not improving corner performance, I would buy in a heartbeat whatever is necessary :-)



Dec 06, 2016 at 03:14 AM
Olaf G
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p.7 #20 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


BastianK wrote:
So if any of your front lenses helps here, despite not improving corner performance, I would buy in a heartbeat whatever is necessary :-)


My experience with the Minolta MC W.Rokkor-HH 1.8/35mm is as follows: if you combine the lens with a low diopter close-up lens (like the "Leica ELPRO4" or the very rare "Minolta Close-Up Lens for MD 100-500mm F8") it will mitigate this behaviour in the corners.
You might check it with a "Minolta Close-Up Lens No.0" first, which is probably the cheapest achromatic low-diopter close-up lens.
However, you will not be able to focus to infinity anymore, the far focus limit will depend on the strength of the close-up-lens.



Dec 06, 2016 at 07:30 AM
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