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Archive 2016Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
p.17 #1Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Fred Miranda wrote:
The extreme edges are good but not great at this aperture. I am hoping that adding a 1.5 PCX filter will improve this performance.
Here are some crops without the front-end filter. (I will only receive the filter on Jan 10th for a comparison)Interesting!
I started by comparing the 28mm ZM MTF with the Loxia 2/35 to get a sense of how they compare, and whether if the 28 ZM can be got to near native performance on the Sony with the aid of front end filters, it would be competitive.
So the published MTFs have the ZM 28 not quite a s good as the Loxia 35; actually notably worse in the midfield, similar in the centre and corners, where there is a quite bit of (probable) astigmatism in both.
But then I thought I should have a look at the ZM 2/35 biogon on which the Lox is based. VERY interesting. The Loxia, as we have seen, is much better than the 2/35 when used on a Sony. But the 2/35 ZM Biogon has a noticeably nicer MTF than the Loxia (assuming their intended cover glasses, obviously). So whatever tweaks were done to the Biogon to turn it into a Loxia Biogon still leave some unresolved astigmatism (that the ZM doesn't really have). The ZM 2/35 is way ahead of the ZM 2.8/28
This makes me a little pessimistic about a front filter on the 28; that solution (especially since it'll be a stock filter and not one calculated to purpose) may improve it's performance on Sony quite a bit, but it seems reasonably to assume that it won't provide nearly the improvement that the recalculations that made the Loxia provided — which as we have seen are only partial. In which case we can expect that a front filter corrected ZM28 will be at least as bad, and probably more, relative to a native 2.8/28 ZM as the Loxia is to the native ZM35
If all that's the case (many assumptions, I know) then I doubt if a corrected 2.8/28 ZM would be really desirable. The lens is starting off worse than the Loxia native - for -native, and it's even corrected on Sony it will be even worse still than the Loxia.
Of course this might all be wrong: I look forward to tests. Also even if I'm right, the correction might make a lot of sense for someone who already owns one.Makes sense David. Still, I'm stubborn and want to see real world tests with these filters. 
I will throw in the Zeiss 28/2 ZF into the mix when comparing the ZM with filter and no filter.
There is no perfect 28mm prime for the A7RII and any solution has to blow away what I get with my 16-35/4@ 28mm, which is flat-field and actually very good at f/6.3 across the field. I'm hoping the ZM 28/2.8 will be at least a little better with more micro-contrast for a very small 28mm prime alternative.
Hi Fred,
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Rich
Edited on Dec 23, 2016 at 08:32 PM · View previous versions
DavidBM wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
Without any front-end filter on a stock A7RII, the ZM 28/2.8 is acceptable at f/10 across the field (infinity)The extreme edges are good but not great at this aperture. I am hoping that adding a 1.5 PCX filter will improve this performance.
Here are some crops without the front-end filter. (I will only receive the filter on Jan 10th for a comparison)
I started by comparing the 28mm ZM MTF with the Loxia 2/35 to get a sense of how they compare, and whether if the 28 ZM can be got to near native performance on the Sony with the aid of front end filters, it would be competitive.
So the published MTFs have the ZM 28 not quite a s good as the Loxia 35; actually notably worse in the midfield, similar in the centre and corners, where there is a quite bit of (probable) astigmatism in both.
But then I thought I should have a look at the ZM 2/35 biogon on which the Lox is based. VERY interesting. The Loxia, as we have seen, is much better than the 2/35 when used on a Sony. But the 2/35 ZM Biogon has a noticeably nicer MTF than the Loxia (assuming their intended cover glasses, obviously). So whatever tweaks were done to the Biogon to turn it into a Loxia Biogon still leave some unresolved astigmatism (that the ZM doesn't really have). The ZM 2/35 is way ahead of the ZM 2.8/28
This makes me a little pessimistic about a front filter on the 28; that solution (especially since it'll be a stock filter and not one calculated to purpose) may improve it's performance on Sony quite a bit, but it seems reasonably to assume that it won't provide nearly the improvement that the recalculations that made the Loxia provided — which as we have seen are only partial. In which case we can expect that a front filter corrected ZM28 will be at least as bad, and probably more, relative to a native 2.8/28 ZM as the Loxia is to the native ZM35
If all that's the case (many assumptions, I know) then I doubt if a corrected 2.8/28 ZM would be really desirable. The lens is starting off worse than the Loxia native - for -native, and it's even corrected on Sony it will be even worse still than the Loxia.
Of course this might all be wrong: I look forward to tests. Also even if I'm right, the correction might make a lot of sense for someone who already owns one.
I will throw in the Zeiss 28/2 ZF into the mix when comparing the ZM with filter and no filter.
There is no perfect 28mm prime for the A7RII and any solution has to blow away what I get with my 16-35/4@ 28mm, which is flat-field and actually very good at f/6.3 across the field. I'm hoping the ZM 28/2.8 will be at least a little better with more micro-contrast for a very small 28mm prime alternative.
Hi Fred,
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Rich
Edited on Dec 23, 2016 at 08:32 PM · View previous versions
Dec 23, 2016 at 07:59 PM
p.17 #2Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Yea question is it's not exactly a good cheap test to try. I think it's 2200.00 but I was thinking Leica to. If I spent that much , I would just go for the R 28mm 2.8. I just read Phillips or Bastian review of the Ultron it does have some big field curvature but he liked it. I actually wanted to try it for a long time. Maybe once I get my filter I could rent it for a test. Not sure the same ZM 35 filter would work but might be worth a test.
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:08 PM
p.17 #3Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the best bet for a small lens might be the Leica M 28 elmarit that has been redesigned for digital. That lens like the ZM 35 f/1.4 already is pretty good without a front end filter as Fred's tests showed earlier. That lens also has 10 aperture blades so it ought to have nice sunstars that rival the ZM and Loxia lenses.
I also think that the 28 lux ASPH is even better and in my tests looks awfully good from about f/4 without any filter, but that lens is in a whole different price category. If...Show more →
I've rented the latest Leica Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 (optimized for digital) and tested on the A7RII. Field curvature at infinity made it impractical for landscapes even stepped down.
I'm really hoping the ZM 28/2.8+filter could be the answer and will be optimum between f/5.6 and f/8. It is just as small and well-built as the Sonnar 50/1.5C. I will test it with the Proxar 1m, PCX 1.5m and PCX 1.5m reversed.
According to @HaruhikoT 's simulation, the PCX 1.5 reversed is like a 1.3m filter. (So, 1m, 1.3m and 1.5m)
GMPhotography wrote
Love to be wrong , just not sure we can push it that far. I wonder if their is a 28 that is a little better today maybe like the CV 28 Ultron for instance that we can gain a lot with a filter. Still can use the TAPI also think that the 28 lux ASPH is even better and in my tests looks awfully good from about f/4 without any filter, but that lens is in a whole different price category. If...Show more →
I've rented the latest Leica Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 (optimized for digital) and tested on the A7RII. Field curvature at infinity made it impractical for landscapes even stepped down.
I'm really hoping the ZM 28/2.8+filter could be the answer and will be optimum between f/5.6 and f/8. It is just as small and well-built as the Sonnar 50/1.5C. I will test it with the Proxar 1m, PCX 1.5m and PCX 1.5m reversed.
According to @HaruhikoT 's simulation, the PCX 1.5 reversed is like a 1.3m filter. (So, 1m, 1.3m and 1.5m)
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:16 PM
p.17 #4Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Be an interesting test Fred.
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:18 PM
p.17 #5Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
GMPhotography wrote:
Be a interesting test Fred
The ZM 28 looks a tiny better towards the edges at f/11 compared to f/10. That's without any filters.
If anyone would like to take a look, here is the full size file (Jpeg compressed). Very flat lighting from overcast day today.
_https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/zm-28-f11.jpg
If the front end filter can do wonders on astigmatism and make it look similar or better to the above at f/6.3, f/7.1 or f/8, I'm happy because I really like the rendering.
Be a interesting test Fred
The ZM 28 looks a tiny better towards the edges at f/11 compared to f/10. That's without any filters.
If anyone would like to take a look, here is the full size file (Jpeg compressed). Very flat lighting from overcast day today.
_https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/zm-28-f11.jpg
If the front end filter can do wonders on astigmatism and make it look similar or better to the above at f/6.3, f/7.1 or f/8, I'm happy because I really like the rendering.
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:34 PM
p.17 #6Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
naturephoto1 wrote:
The extreme edges are good but not great at this aperture. I am hoping that adding a 1.5 PCX filter will improve this performance.
Here are some crops without the front-end filter. (I will only receive the filter on Jan 10th for a comparison)Interesting!
I started by comparing the 28mm ZM MTF with the Loxia 2/35 to get a sense of how they compare, and whether if the 28 ZM can be got to near native performance on the Sony with the aid of front end filters, it would be competitive.
So the published MTFs have the ZM 28 not quite a s good as the Loxia 35; actually notably worse in the midfield, similar in the centre and corners, where there is a quite bit of (probable) astigmatism in both.
But then I thought I should have a look at the ZM 2/35 biogon on which the Lox is based. VERY interesting. The Loxia, as we have seen, is much better than the 2/35 when used on a Sony. But the 2/35 ZM Biogon has a noticeably nicer MTF than the Loxia (assuming their intended cover glasses, obviously). So whatever tweaks were done to the Biogon to turn it into a Loxia Biogon still leave some unresolved astigmatism (that the ZM doesn't really have). The ZM 2/35 is way ahead of the ZM 2.8/28
This makes me a little pessimistic about a front filter on the 28; that solution (especially since it'll be a stock filter and not one calculated to purpose) may improve it's performance on Sony quite a bit, but it seems reasonably to assume that it won't provide nearly the improvement that the recalculations that made the Loxia provided — which as we have seen are only partial. In which case we can expect that a front filter corrected ZM28 will be at least as bad, and probably more, relative to a native 2.8/28 ZM as the Loxia is to the native ZM35
If all that's the case (many assumptions, I know) then I doubt if a corrected 2.8/28 ZM would be really desirable. The lens is starting off worse than the Loxia native - for -native, and it's even corrected on Sony it will be even worse still than the Loxia.
Of course this might all be wrong: I look forward to tests. Also even if I'm right, the correction might make a lot of sense for someone who already owns one.Makes sense David. Still, I'm stubborn and want to see real world tests with these filters.
I will throw in the Zeiss 28/2 ZF into the mix when comparing the ZM with filter and no filter.
There is no perfect 28mm prime for the A7RII and any solution has to blow away what I get with my 16-35/4@ 28mm, which is flat-field and actually very good at f/6.3 across the field. I'm hoping the ZM 28/2.8 will be at least a little better with more micro-contrast for a very small 28mm prime alternative.Hi Fred,
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Rich
Thanks for the samples Rich. I'm trying to resist the Elmarit-R 28/2.8 but you don't help!
Fred Miranda wrote
DavidBM wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
Without any front-end filter on a stock A7RII, the ZM 28/2.8 is acceptable at f/10 across the field (infinity)The extreme edges are good but not great at this aperture. I am hoping that adding a 1.5 PCX filter will improve this performance.
Here are some crops without the front-end filter. (I will only receive the filter on Jan 10th for a comparison)
I started by comparing the 28mm ZM MTF with the Loxia 2/35 to get a sense of how they compare, and whether if the 28 ZM can be got to near native performance on the Sony with the aid of front end filters, it would be competitive.
So the published MTFs have the ZM 28 not quite a s good as the Loxia 35; actually notably worse in the midfield, similar in the centre and corners, where there is a quite bit of (probable) astigmatism in both.
But then I thought I should have a look at the ZM 2/35 biogon on which the Lox is based. VERY interesting. The Loxia, as we have seen, is much better than the 2/35 when used on a Sony. But the 2/35 ZM Biogon has a noticeably nicer MTF than the Loxia (assuming their intended cover glasses, obviously). So whatever tweaks were done to the Biogon to turn it into a Loxia Biogon still leave some unresolved astigmatism (that the ZM doesn't really have). The ZM 2/35 is way ahead of the ZM 2.8/28
This makes me a little pessimistic about a front filter on the 28; that solution (especially since it'll be a stock filter and not one calculated to purpose) may improve it's performance on Sony quite a bit, but it seems reasonably to assume that it won't provide nearly the improvement that the recalculations that made the Loxia provided — which as we have seen are only partial. In which case we can expect that a front filter corrected ZM28 will be at least as bad, and probably more, relative to a native 2.8/28 ZM as the Loxia is to the native ZM35
If all that's the case (many assumptions, I know) then I doubt if a corrected 2.8/28 ZM would be really desirable. The lens is starting off worse than the Loxia native - for -native, and it's even corrected on Sony it will be even worse still than the Loxia.
Of course this might all be wrong: I look forward to tests. Also even if I'm right, the correction might make a lot of sense for someone who already owns one.
I will throw in the Zeiss 28/2 ZF into the mix when comparing the ZM with filter and no filter.
There is no perfect 28mm prime for the A7RII and any solution has to blow away what I get with my 16-35/4@ 28mm, which is flat-field and actually very good at f/6.3 across the field. I'm hoping the ZM 28/2.8 will be at least a little better with more micro-contrast for a very small 28mm prime alternative.
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Rich
Thanks for the samples Rich. I'm trying to resist the Elmarit-R 28/2.8 but you don't help!
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:44 PM
p.17 #7Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
There is a ZM 25mm as well . Let's see 12,18,25,35. That works. Lol
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28
Dec 23, 2016 at 08:47 PM
p.17 #8Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
I know it didn't meet Fred's high standards, but I'm sticking with the lowly SMC Pentax 28mm f/3.5 K. Not that I wouldn't mind Rich's R 28 though.
 |
||
| http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg | ||
|
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Dec 23, 2016 at 09:10 PM
p.17 #9Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
GMPhotography wrote:
There is a ZM 25mm as well . Let's see 12,18,25,35. That works. Lol
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28
The ZM 25 is a technically better lens across the frame at wider apertures (on a Leica). I've briefly shot it and the 28. I thought the 28 had good Zeiss character but was a bit disappointing for technical applications unless well stopped down. Being that I'm an RF shooter and not Sony, these results with the ZM 28 (the 28 Ultron was weaker, lower contrast and exhibited focus shift), put my focus on Leica's 28s. These all seem very good on the M cameras, but as we know, are suboptimal on Sonys. If the ZM 28 doesn't improve with the PC lens, then I'd probably look at SLR mount 28s instead, unless willing to spend the money on a Leica M 28. It would be interesting to see if the PC lens can also fix the problems with Leica's M 28s on Sony...
There is a ZM 25mm as well . Let's see 12,18,25,35. That works. Lol
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28
The ZM 25 is a technically better lens across the frame at wider apertures (on a Leica). I've briefly shot it and the 28. I thought the 28 had good Zeiss character but was a bit disappointing for technical applications unless well stopped down. Being that I'm an RF shooter and not Sony, these results with the ZM 28 (the 28 Ultron was weaker, lower contrast and exhibited focus shift), put my focus on Leica's 28s. These all seem very good on the M cameras, but as we know, are suboptimal on Sonys. If the ZM 28 doesn't improve with the PC lens, then I'd probably look at SLR mount 28s instead, unless willing to spend the money on a Leica M 28. It would be interesting to see if the PC lens can also fix the problems with Leica's M 28s on Sony...
Dec 23, 2016 at 09:33 PM
p.17 #10Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
rscheffler wrote:
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28The ZM 25 is a technically better lens across the frame at wider apertures (on a Leica). I've briefly shot it and the 28. I thought the 28 had good Zeiss character but was a bit disappointing for technical applications unless well stopped down. Being that I'm an RF shooter and not Sony, these results with the ZM 28 (the 28 Ultron was weaker, lower contrast and exhibited focus shift), put my focus on Leica's 28s. These all seem very good on the M cameras, but as we know, are suboptimal on Sonys. If the ZM 28 doesn't improve with...Show more →
That's exactly my plan Ron.
I will test the ZM 28 with PCX filter against the 28/2 ZF.
If I really wanted a high performing 25 lens for the A7RII, my choice would be the Batis 25/2.
GMPhotography wrote
There is a ZM 25mm as well . Let's see 12,18,25,35. That works. LolNot sure which one is better the 25 or 28
That's exactly my plan Ron.
I will test the ZM 28 with PCX filter against the 28/2 ZF.
If I really wanted a high performing 25 lens for the A7RII, my choice would be the Batis 25/2.
Dec 23, 2016 at 09:37 PM
p.17 #11Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
tsdevine wrote:
I know it didn't meet Fred's high standards, but I'm sticking with the lowly SMC Pentax 28mm f/3.5 K. Not that I wouldn't mind Rich's R 28 though.
http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Looks good Tim. The Pentax 28/3.5 is also great choice. Is that my copy? I remember it had very good edges but not so great mid-field.
I know it didn't meet Fred's high standards, but I'm sticking with the lowly SMC Pentax 28mm f/3.5 K. Not that I wouldn't mind Rich's R 28 though.
http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Looks good Tim. The Pentax 28/3.5 is also great choice. Is that my copy? I remember it had very good edges but not so great mid-field.
Dec 23, 2016 at 09:39 PM
p.17 #12Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
No, I still have your copy though. This one is slightly better, at least by my tests. Believe it or not, I paid $37 for this one and it was in mint condition.
I know you're looking for something that will have good sharpness across the frame at wider apertures. I really do hope that Zeiss comes through with a Loxia. A Loxia 28 to pair with my 21 would be a dream come true.
-Tim
Fred Miranda wrote:
tsdevine wrote
I know it didn't meet Fred's high standards, but I'm sticking with the lowly SMC Pentax 28mm f/3.5 K. Not that I wouldn't mind Rich's R 28 though.http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Dec 23, 2016 at 09:44 PM
p.17 #13Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
tsdevine wrote:
No, I still have your copy though. This one is slightly better, at least by my tests. Believe it or not, I paid $37 for this one and it was in mint condition.
I know you're looking for something that will have good sharpness across the frame at wider apertures. I really do hope that Zeiss comes through with a Loxia. A Loxia 28 to pair with my 21 would be a dream come true.
-Tim
http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-TimLooks good Tim. The Pentax 28/3.5 is also great choice. Is that my copy? I remember it had very good edges but not so great mid-field.
Wow, the copy I sold you was perfectly centered. I agree on the Loxia 28, it would be a great addition.
No, I still have your copy though. This one is slightly better, at least by my tests. Believe it or not, I paid $37 for this one and it was in mint condition.
I know you're looking for something that will have good sharpness across the frame at wider apertures. I really do hope that Zeiss comes through with a Loxia. A Loxia 28 to pair with my 21 would be a dream come true.
-Tim
Fred Miranda wrote
tsdevine wrote
I know it didn't meet Fred's high standards, but I'm sticking with the lowly SMC Pentax 28mm f/3.5 K. Not that I wouldn't mind Rich's R 28 though.http://www.devine.photography/img/s5/v123/p2151795919-5.jpg
For pixel peeping
There has to be a Loxia 28 in the works right?
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Wow, the copy I sold you was perfectly centered. I agree on the Loxia 28, it would be a great addition.
Dec 23, 2016 at 10:56 PM
p.17 #14Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.
Dec 23, 2016 at 11:28 PM
p.17 #15Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Luvwine wrote:
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
I too hope for a Loxia,,.,
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
I too hope for a Loxia,,.,
Dec 23, 2016 at 11:42 PM
p.17 #16Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
DavidBM wrote:
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new...Show more →
The 28/2 Leica does not play well on Sony, but the 28/1.4 Leica does and it is a modern design and a "premium" lens...Agreed that a Loxia 28 would be a great addition.
Luvwine wrote
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new...Show more →
The 28/2 Leica does not play well on Sony, but the 28/1.4 Leica does and it is a modern design and a "premium" lens...Agreed that a Loxia 28 would be a great addition.
Dec 23, 2016 at 11:56 PM
p.17 #17Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Luvwine wrote:
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
I too hope for a Loxia,,.,The 28/2 Leica does not play well on Sony, but the 28/1.4 Leica does and it is a modern design and a "premium" lens...Agreed that a Loxia 28 would be a great addition.
Interesting, I hadn't seen that it plays well on Sony. Cool. But maybe it's not premium: it's ultra premium or luxury! If Lloyd Chambers is to be believed, it has worse colour correction than Otus. But that's not surprising given their relatives sizes, which is partly but not wholly explained by flange distance.
But I think what most of us hanging out for a premium 28 option are looking for is something a bit slower; f2-2.8 with an up to date design with no compromises stopped down and an excellent central area wide open. I for one would trade size for wide open corners, but the Astro crowd won't, so not everyone can win....
DavidBM wrote
Luvwine wrote
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
I too hope for a Loxia,,.,
Interesting, I hadn't seen that it plays well on Sony. Cool. But maybe it's not premium: it's ultra premium or luxury! If Lloyd Chambers is to be believed, it has worse colour correction than Otus. But that's not surprising given their relatives sizes, which is partly but not wholly explained by flange distance.
But I think what most of us hanging out for a premium 28 option are looking for is something a bit slower; f2-2.8 with an up to date design with no compromises stopped down and an excellent central area wide open. I for one would trade size for wide open corners, but the Astro crowd won't, so not everyone can win....
Dec 24, 2016 at 12:32 AM
p.17 #18Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Steve Spencer wrote:
I'm hoping the ZM 35/1.4 will be optimal at f/4 and the ZM 28/2.8 at f/5.6 (with their respective filters)I think that is a lot to expect. I think a more reasonable expectation is the ZM 35 f/1.4 will be optimal at f/5.6 and the ZM 28 f/2.8 will be as good at f/8 as it is in your samples at f/10, which I don't really see as optimal. For me I would settle for the filters just primarily working in closer in shooting, say 10m or less and getting performance in these close shots that rivals the lens on a Leica M240. Now that looks totally possible and that combined with good performance from f/5.6 or even...Show more →
Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I'm taking in consideration the results posted by @HaruhikoT
These were taken wide open at f/1.4 and there is big improvement in the corners when using a 5m PC lens.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1453834/12#13842674
Fred Miranda wrote
GMPhotography wrote
I'll take the logical approach here so if it's good at F10 without filter and we want to try for F8 which is a 1.5 stop improvement. Now do we think we could get 1.5 stop improvement factor with filter on it. It looks like at least the ZM 35 gets at least a stop with its filter. So maybe it's possible. Just thinking out loud 😇Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I'm taking in consideration the results posted by @HaruhikoT
These were taken wide open at f/1.4 and there is big improvement in the corners when using a 5m PC lens.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1453834/12#13842674
Dec 24, 2016 at 12:33 AM
p.17 #19Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
Hello All,
Well, I'm now finally off work for 10 days for Christmas break here in Great Britain, and hope to have an opportunity to do a before and after comparison regards Zeiss 18, 25 & 28mm ZM lenses, and there proxar/ planoconvex correction lenses on and off. With all the talk about the ZM 28mm lately, I fell compelled now to test this one especially, so you can get a preview of what it will be like with the filter on/ off.
I will do two tests, infinite landscape with the camera tilted at a 30 degree angle (similar to how Fred posts his sample photos) and a close up set testing bokeh. I will try to do a field curvature test if I have the opportunity also.
Apologies this has not happened sooner, I simmply am at work throughout the week, and when I get off work, it's dark already. On the weekends, I usually am doing things with my wife and two young children, so getting time to do sample photos has been a challenge.
I've heard the weather will be nice on Boxing Day here in England, so I may try to get out to the park on that date with my tripod and lenses, and do some proper tests.
I have a website, and shall try to post full res samples on my smugmug webpage for everyone to digest.
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
So all this isn't a promise it will happen, but a statement saying I will try my best to do this for the community during my holiday break.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
Well, I'm now finally off work for 10 days for Christmas break here in Great Britain, and hope to have an opportunity to do a before and after comparison regards Zeiss 18, 25 & 28mm ZM lenses, and there proxar/ planoconvex correction lenses on and off. With all the talk about the ZM 28mm lately, I fell compelled now to test this one especially, so you can get a preview of what it will be like with the filter on/ off.
I will do two tests, infinite landscape with the camera tilted at a 30 degree angle (similar to how Fred posts his sample photos) and a close up set testing bokeh. I will try to do a field curvature test if I have the opportunity also.
Apologies this has not happened sooner, I simmply am at work throughout the week, and when I get off work, it's dark already. On the weekends, I usually am doing things with my wife and two young children, so getting time to do sample photos has been a challenge.
I've heard the weather will be nice on Boxing Day here in England, so I may try to get out to the park on that date with my tripod and lenses, and do some proper tests.
I have a website, and shall try to post full res samples on my smugmug webpage for everyone to digest.
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
So all this isn't a promise it will happen, but a statement saying I will try my best to do this for the community during my holiday break.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
Dec 24, 2016 at 04:09 AM
p.17 #20Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing
candreyo wrote:
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
Would be great if you could also manage to slide in a video for the ZM 35 1.4, camera spanner will arrive next week
Wishing you happy holidays as well!
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
Would be great if you could also manage to slide in a video for the ZM 35 1.4, camera spanner will arrive next week
Wishing you happy holidays as well!
Dec 24, 2016 at 04:29 AM