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Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar

  
 
pdmphoto
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p.42 #1 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


jlehet wrote:
Yeah, I did that this morning and it was very different indeed. The OM 90/2 is IMO among the best lenses for bokeh. I haven't reviewed those images yet but I noted through the viewfinder that the difference was striking.


Going up to the 90/2 is almost the same percentage (ratio) as going down to the 50/2.



Sep 08, 2017 at 11:41 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.42 #2 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Phillip Reeve wrote:
It was actually 2.8 stops and those were measured by Bastian on his a7rii. Now I am curious how much what the value changes on my a7ii, will check that as soon as I have access to it. Or can you quantify how much of a difference there is with some of your lenses between a7/a7ii and a7rii?

Phillip, no I can't quantify. I have "mental barrier" of paying the gigantic price for A7r mkII as I don't care for autofocus stuff, I shoot always from tripod and I don't pixel peep as we are way past in megapixels for what I need to produce large prints. It's still almost price of one Otus lens or 3-4x 2 week phototravel to some nice locations - so unless it's getting cheaper I have no intention of getting one.

Between A7, A7r and A7 mkII there are no big differences (=not big enough that I would bother to study it in systematical way). Of mentioned cameras A7r "feels" to have most vignetting (and color issues) due to ray angle, but differences are not big and I rarely shoot same lens on two different cameras.




jlehet wrote:
This one is really crazy. F2, focus on the second chicken from the right (its eye). F2, the thing is nowhere near the center of the frame. It is very sharp. I have never had a lens like this.

Good sample of boke behavior at large focus distances. It's pretty obvious that the crazy/jittery/bad boke is only on short edges and corners at this scene. On center the crossing long grasses looks relative smooth. On Phillip's website samples confirm that it's mostly this way, thou some samples had bad center boke as well.

Behavior at this distance is very similar to Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100 ZE/ZF. Similarity to 2/100 continues on that the area of bad boke goes smaller when focusing closer - maybe in relation how cats eye behavior is worst at large distances, and due to lens extension at closer focus distances both cats eye and optical/mechanical vignetting decreases. This is one of the biggest reasons why "flower boke"-scenes tell nothing how lens behaves at larger distances.

I really would like to see this lens to work well. So hopefully this is not yet another "shoot f/3.2-3.5 if you want to avoid bad boke at large distances"-lens. It would be nice if this one would work well already f/2.2-2.5 (it's obvious it will not work f/2.0 on large distances boke scenes in nature). Few modern lenses (G85, FE1.4/35, Loxia85) seem to be able to produce good results already 1/3 stops down, which is really good compared to traditional good performance of needing for stopping down "only" 1 1/3 stops in order to get decent large distance boke.

Samuli



Sep 08, 2017 at 11:57 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.42 #3 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


pdmphoto wrote:
I also find the bokeh of the CV 65 kinda flat and uninteresting in general. Seems to be lacking contrast/color?


Could it be because the CV flower sample over 1/3 stop overexposed in comparison? When equalizing the histograms color and contrast become very similar for both images.



Sep 09, 2017 at 12:04 AM
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p.42 #4 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


jlehet wrote:
Yeah, I did that this morning and it was very different indeed. The OM 90/2 is IMO among the best lenses for bokeh. I haven't reviewed those images yet but I noted through the viewfinder that the difference was striking.


The 90/2 lens would of course give more blur at similar distance. To compare to different FL lenses, one needs to first, make them equivalent.

One way to do this is to shoot your subject at same distance (preferably on tripod) with both lenses (65 and 90mm) and in post-processing, crop the 65mm image to match the 90mm. The aperture would need to be equiv. as well, so 90/65=1.38x. The 90/2 lens would need to be set to 90mm f/2.8 in order for both lenses to show equiv. blur.

Once both images are equivalent in focal length and aperture, histograms would have to be normalized as well. (same exact exposure) since that affects contrast and colors. After that, we can't look at bokeh 'quality' and 'character'.



Sep 09, 2017 at 12:18 AM
pdmphoto
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p.42 #5 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Fred Miranda wrote:
Could it be because the CV flower sample over 1/3 stop overexposed in comparison? When equalizing the histograms color and contrast become very similar for both images.


My observations on the bokeh are based on the many sample images I've seen posted, here and elsewhere



Sep 09, 2017 at 01:10 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.42 #6 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Fred Miranda wrote:
One way to do this is to shoot your subject at same distance (preferably on tripod) with both lenses (65 and 90mm) and in post-processing, crop the 65mm image to match the 90mm. The aperture would need to be equiv. as well, so 90/65=1.38x. The 90/2 lens would need to be set to 90mm f/2.8 in order for both lenses to show equiv. blur.

Once both images are equivalent in focal length and aperture, histograms have also have to be normalized (same exact exposure) since that affects contrast and colors. After that, we can't look at bokeh quality.

Fred, I would disagree with this method for boke quality evaluation. This leads that to situation, in which the longer lens already having "advantage"/"disadvantage" of not being cropped AND being closed down a little, which 99.99999999% of cases increases quality of boke. Method should produce same size boke highlights (=quantity of boke), but I would not use it for evaluation of quality of boke.

Based on comparing any pair of lenses with this cropping method the most common observations relate to test setup, not quality of boke:
1) longer lens vignetting is larger (most of cases as image is not cropped, of course some shorter lenses vignette so much that there is not much difference), which effects how to match exposures. If one matches center, then longer lens looks better due to vignetting, majority of people will not understand and they say "better colors" or "better contrast" - if one matches overall frame then longer lens looks bad, like having hot spot in middle of the lens [this gives nice benefit for tester to produce the results in a way her/his preference is shown as better alternative - or if one really wants to be objective a big dilemma, how to expose to avoid favoring the another]
2) longer lens corners may still have more cats eye, while shorter lens is cropped and shows less even wide open
3) due to mechanical/optical vignetting longer lens may have longer DOF in corners
4) any shorter lens harshness of boke highlights is magnified e.g. if there high light concentration to edges of boke highlights it looks worse than in real life due to magnification - or aspherical lens element "rings" in boke highlights.
5) cropped and wide open makes the shorter lens subject have less microcontrast and overall contrast, making colors etc. worse than the long lens photo - this should not affect on evaluating to boke, but there is most likely more observations of this than actual boke quality.


If one really would like evaluate boke quality, then camera would need to be moved on axis to match the FOVs to include exact same boke composition (not easy, at least I don't own >2 meter focus rail). This would allow tester to use same apertures and adjusting the boke highlight size to same by using focusing. However this method makes it impossible to include focus plane subject as focus distance is used to adjust blur disk size. Even this is the best for evaluating boke quality when boke quantity is kept the same, I would not recommend method - Most likely majority of discussion would be about test setup and lack of focus plane subject even this would enable real possibility to discuss objectively about boke quality.



Then there is naturally few "compromise" methods done by moving camera on axis to match composition. If tester makes the subject size equivalent, then boke quality cannot be evaluated as boke is different size due to different FOVs causing back-forth object size differences. And if tester makes the composition based on what is on boke, then subject size will change between images - and the amount of internet crying is gigantic due to this . And in both cases some aperture matching is needed to equalize the boke quantity for making it possible to compare boke quality, which will lead some differences which again lead majority of observations to be setup relevant, not boke quality relevant.





For me more important than just matching exposure, is that the light is 100% the same. In cloudy day even if clouds would not block the sun (direct sunlight to focus plane subject and boke) their movement around the sky changes lightning too much (less issue in places where sun shines from really high, but when sun is not so high e.g. in Finland or Alaska, then the overall "fill light" from sky has more effect how the scene is lit). Also sun position changes very fast and difference of multiple minutes causes the light to be different. In addition if boke is formed from flexible objects (e.g. tree with leaves), there can't be any wind, which would change the angle leaves reflect light. This favors 100% artificial setup test scenes, but does that give meaningful results as most photographers shoot outdoors in natural light? I have not seen many good artificial boke test scenes, none for larger distances.


In practice it's really hard to evaluate boke quality of multiple lenses when FOV is different.

Samuli



Sep 09, 2017 at 01:42 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.42 #7 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Fred, I would disagree with this method for boke quality evaluation. This leads that to situation, in which the longer lens already having "advantage"/"disadvantage" of not being cropped AND being closed down a little, which 99.99999999% of cases increases quality of boke. Method should produce same size boke highlights (=quantity of boke), but I would not use it for evaluation of quality of boke.

Based on comparing any pair of lenses with this cropping method the most common observations relate to test setup, not quality of boke:
1) longer lens vignetting is larger (most of cases as image is not
...Show more

Samuli,
I agree that evaluating bokeh quality on lenses with different focal lengths is somewhat flawed. However, if one really wants to make such comparisons (As suggested on this thread), they should be at least equivalent and similarly exposed.



Sep 09, 2017 at 02:12 AM
rico
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p.42 #8 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


There's merit to both Samuli and Fred methods. Another interpretation of "equivalent" is shooting the same subject (a flower for example) that fills the frame to the same degree, and has a context that is deep and detailed (field of flowers). Frame-filling is a common practice so different perspective and DOF is acceptable. Aperture could either be wide open for both lenses, or be different to approximate the same DOF on the subject.


Sep 09, 2017 at 06:08 AM
jlehet
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p.42 #9 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


The bokeh flower shots of the 65 vs 50/2 were extremely casual, done as an afterthought after I had switched lenses 100 yards away. The EV was 0 for both shots in the EXIF (a little unusual, as I usually use the Sony at - something, but in this low light zero is good). One difference was that in first reviewing the images (late on a long day, tired) before I decided to post them I had given the CV +.45 exposure in LR and the OM none.

The 90/2 bokeh comparison was done with a lens change on the spot, and my sense at the time was the difference was very much quality not quantity of blur. It was a whole different look. Sorry for mentioning it without showing it, but those files are on an unmounted HD in my office and I won't have time to look at them until sometime tomorrow.

One interesting thing about the chicken shot to me was how much detail is in the mesh fence in the background. Without a direct comparison its hard to know, but it seems to me at f2 with many lenses that mesh would be mush.

I was going to do those chickens at all stops all the way to 8 but I only got to 3.5 (I must have done two clicks and then three, intending 2.8 then 4, but small matter). The chickens did not cooperate.




Sep 09, 2017 at 07:37 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #10 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


I just think if you want to compare Bokeh you need the same focal length lens as there is perspective and compression involved also. Plus a host of other variables. I'll try and shoot some more where Bokeh is concerned and see how things look. But given this lens design it's made to be a extremely well corrected lens and that usually leaves out Bokeh as a main design feature. Im Not bothered by it but obviously some folks will be. I'm more concerned about the look and rendering overall but not being so focused on the bokeh side of it.

I still want to redo a test between the Batis 135 and the VC. I need a building that's not as tall so I can keep the camera perfectly aligned. I have one in mind I'm going to run out and get soon here. Watching for clouds to go away.

Side note . Let's hope Irma is kind to Florida in the next coming days. Stay safe folks



Sep 09, 2017 at 08:37 AM
 


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GMPhotography
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p.42 #11 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


So I got lucky I found my wall to test the 135 and 65 without having to tilt up for the 65mm. I also had 10 minutes of real sun with no clouds and haze. A9 tripod and all that jazz. Freaking impressive even wide open.

The red circle on the center crop is where i focused the overhang comes out so I focused on the wall. Keep that in mind even though the awning is sharp






















Sep 09, 2017 at 11:28 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #12 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


VC 65mm at F2.8

















Sep 09, 2017 at 11:33 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #13 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Batis 135mm at 2.8.

Ill put full shot last so easier to see






















Sep 09, 2017 at 11:36 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #14 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Just to show upper left corner at F4

Batis is first and VC is second












Sep 09, 2017 at 11:39 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #15 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


They are so close i can barely make a call. But again they are like kissing cousins. Im very impressed

I got a couple grab shots to post as well



Sep 09, 2017 at 11:40 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #16 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Just some grab shots handheld. Watch the EXIF



























Sep 09, 2017 at 11:53 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #17 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Couple more

















Sep 09, 2017 at 11:54 AM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #18 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


Honestly I have no issues with the bokeh on these grab shots. The one image what we call a Ocotillo ( I spelled that wrong) no lens is going to save you. It's a swirly looking plant to begin with. I expected that result


Sep 09, 2017 at 12:18 PM
Luvwine
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p.42 #19 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


In using this lens for a bit now, I understand why some are not excited by the lens. It is not a character lens. It is not extremely fast so it's bokeh does not wow like say the 85 GM bokeh wows or the STf can wow. It could be smaller. The thing is this lens just seems to do everything really well. The images are really clean. The colors are correct. The images are sharp from edge to edge from wide open. There is little to no fringing except in extreme cases and even then it is moderate-same with onion rings as Phillip Reeve has shown. The flare is moderate. It is like driving a New Mercedes--it lacks some of the thrills of a Porsche and the character of a vintage car. It's engine is not loud in the cabin. It just smooth and effortless and you are only surprised when looking at the speedometer and you realize you are going faster than you thought.

I cannot think of any one lens that is as versatile as this Voigtlander. It is wide enough to be useful for landscape, long enough to do portrait, can do macro, and general shooting. Sure, other specialist lenses are as good or perhaps a bit better at some of these applications, but is there any lens for FE mount that does as many things well as this lens does?

Edited on Sep 09, 2017 at 03:52 PM · View previous versions



Sep 09, 2017 at 12:36 PM
GMPhotography
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p.42 #20 · Official: Voigtlander 65mm f/2 Macro Apo-Lanthar


OT but I mentioned I grabbed a 35 1.7 VC lens be here today but if anyone has a Optima Sigma .5 they want to get rid of I'll buy it as Fred is getting the 35 1.7 on loan and we can test it against some other 35 between us

Let me know



Sep 09, 2017 at 01:20 PM
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