p.10 #1 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
sflxn wrote:
This rumor is why I have resisted being baited into buying the latest aps-c and FF equipment. For those who have the means to buy into a DMF camera, there will be regret buying new Sony FE lenses or the new Fuji X-T2 when a DMF from Fuji might be around the corner. I definitely do not want to spend anymore money this year or early next year till I see this Fuji DMF camera and the Sony A9.
I bet many of these GAS induced purchases of these new Zeiss lenses, Sony GM lenses, and Fuji X-T2 systems will be up on the FM B&S board if this Fuji DMF camera materializes....Show more →
Why do you say thus? If we think Sony's lens lineup is limited...which has been talked about a lot, what do you think the Fuji MF lineup out the door will look like? Do you think there will be any TSE lenses for it for landscape or architecture shooting? What about a full frame equivalent 14 2.8 for astro shooting? What about a full frame equivalent 200 f4 lens for compressed landscapes?
I see a lot of compromises for maybe some yet to be seen image quality improvements that might be noticable in prints.
You claim you resisted being bated into buying into the latest APS-cc and FF equipment and talk about GAS...yet it seems like you are getting trolled by this yet to be seen vaporware hook, line and sinker.
p.10 #2 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
taran wrote:
A Sony bean counter came up with a brilliant plan about 5 years ago.
1) Build a sensor and offer it as an exclusive to Leica.
I don't believe Leica is using any Sony sensors. They were using Kodak sensor, same as the original Pentax 645D. I'm not really sure which sensor they're using currently, but I don't believe that 37mp sensor is from Sony.
p.10 #3 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
chez wrote:
Why do you say thus? If we think Sony's lens lineup is limited...which has been talked about a lot, what do you think the Fuji MF lineup out the door will look like? Do you think there will be any TSE lenses for it for landscape or architecture shooting? What about a full frame equivalent 14 2.8 for astro shooting? What about a full frame equivalent 200 f4 lens for compressed landscapes?
I see a lot of compromises for maybe some yet to be seen image quality improvements that might be noticable in prints.
You claim you resisted being bated into buying into the latest APS-cc and FF equipment and talk about GAS...yet it seems like you are getting trolled by this yet to be seen vaporware hook, line and sinker.
I don't believe the Sony lens lineup is limited. To me, it's fully fleshed out now. All I am saying is forums like FM are filled with GAS induced buying. If this Fuji DMF camera materializes, it will be the next big GAS inducer. Those susceptable to GAS will probably want to jump on this new camera and flood the B&S board with their current shiny, new 35mm gear.
I will be very tempted by an X1 form factor from Fuji. I will only need TWO prime lenses for it. I'm not one of those who need every focal length.
Btw, if this camera is introduced. Then comes the Sony A9 and then the Sony DMF. Ever notice the same people moving from one system to the next, whichever has all the buzz at the moment? There's going to be a juicy load of Hassy X1, Fuji DMF, Sony A9, and Sony DMF gear on the B&S board over the next few years.
p.10 #4 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
sflxn wrote:
I will be very tempted by an X1 form factor from Fuji. I will only need TWO prime lenses for it. I'm not one of those who need every focal length.
I think this is part of a bigger point: buying the best camera Sony has available, plus 3 best in class lenses (say, the 21mm, 55mm, and the new 85mm) is going to cost almost $7,500. If Sony's "professional" camera is released at Photokina in a couple weeks, that total will likely go up.
If Fuji can undercut Hasselblad by releasing a similar, yet flexible, product with two lenses that all-together costs less than $10,000, they will end up baiting a lot of folks who would ordinarily be looking at the Sony system and nothing else.
p.10 #5 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
corposant wrote:
I think this is part of a bigger point: buying the best camera Sony has available, plus 3 best in class lenses (say, the 21mm, 55mm, and the new 85mm) is going to cost almost $7,500. If Sony's "professional" camera is released at Photokina in a couple weeks, that total will likely go up.
If Fuji can undercut Hasselblad by releasing a similar, yet flexible, product with two lenses that all-together costs less than $10,000, they will end up baiting a lot of folks who would ordinarily be looking at the Sony system and nothing else.
Right...but then Fuji needs to have that 21 2.8 equivalent lens along with an equivalent 55mm 1.4 etc... Having a few lenses available need to be the right lenses... Going the Sony route, you have virtually every lens available making the system a nice compact travel camera with lenses like the 28 f2 and 35 2.8 and then bringing the setup into a studio with the 24-70 and 85 GM...lots of flexibility.
Unless there is some big image improvement, I just cannot see hordes of photographers flocking to a mini MF system. I've still have not heard any definitive answer to my question regarding any noticable improvements in prints from a mini MF system compared to the prints produced by systems like the A7R2 or 5dsr...not to mention the next generation extreme resolution camera from Sony.
p.10 #6 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
chez wrote:
Right...but then Fuji needs to have that 21 2.8 equivalent lens along with an equivalent 55mm 1.4 etc... Having a few lenses available need to be the right lenses... Going the Sony route, you have virtually every lens available making the system a nice compact travel camera with lenses like the 28 f2 and 35 2.8 and then bringing the setup into a studio with the 24-70 and 85 GM...lots of flexibility.
Unless there is some big image improvement, I just cannot see hordes of photographers flocking to a mini MF system. I've still have not heard any definitive answer to my question regarding any noticable improvements in prints from a mini MF system compared to the prints produced by systems like the A7R2 or 5dsr...not to mention the next generation extreme resolution camera from Sony....Show more →
I agree with you that they need to be the right lenses (or at least have a plan of what the future lenses might be).
That said, I think that comparing Sony directly to either Hasselblad or (potentially) Fuji is not the marketing challenge that either H and F are looking for. In isolation, Sony is a more mature system in that they've iterated a couple times and have released a number of lens options...no question about that.
I think what H and F are counting on is that their potential userbase will already be invested in a smaller sensor system, and that these medium format options will be complementary, and not look to replace what they have already. Or, better still, I figure they'd also target the D800/5DIII crowd and offer a high-performance but portable medium format system that can also potentially outperform their current system. So if I am shooting a crop sensor system, but want a bigger sensor size with some better flash support and more megapixels, I can now consider three systems instead of one (Sony).
I think regarding prints (and I don't think you were addressing this to me, but why not answer) - I think it depends on what size you're printing and what the content of the image is. I have 12mp 13x19 prints that look great, but they weren't particularly challenging subjects for a printer to render. If physical media ever goes out of style, and someday we're all displaying our images on OLED walls in our houses, I'll definitely understand the need for 100mp cameras.
p.10 #7 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
corposant wrote:
I think this is part of a bigger point: buying the best camera Sony has available, plus 3 best in class lenses (say, the 21mm, 55mm, and the new 85mm) is going to cost almost $7,500. If Sony's "professional" camera is released at Photokina in a couple weeks, that total will likely go up.
If Fuji can undercut Hasselblad by releasing a similar, yet flexible, product with two lenses that all-together costs less than $10,000, they will end up baiting a lot of folks who would ordinarily be looking at the Sony system and nothing else.
At present in Australia, Sony gear is becoming very expensive. At one point the AUD dropped substantially but it has increased again and Sony pricing is still very high. The A7rII 4K, GM 85 2.8K, Loxia 21 2K, FE 55 1.1K, FE 35/1.4 2.2K. I was about to extend my GM range with the 24-70/2.8 it is now 3.3K, and the GM 70-200 is 4.2K,
For a very good working A7rII and lens system, the pricing is about 10-12K.
Fuji have a lot of experience, and depending on the Fuji MF offerings, this will be interesting !!
p.10 #8 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
sflxn wrote:
I don't believe Leica is using any Sony sensors. They were using Kodak sensor, same as the original Pentax 645D. I'm not really sure which sensor they're using currently, but I don't believe that 37mp sensor is from Sony.
Yes, you are right, thanks for pointing that out. Obviously my theory is a little flawed, and pure speculation. And I also forgot about the other purchasers who seem to have arrived early (but not mirrorless): Pentax, ala 645, and Phase One... NOT Leica. I guess Phase One has enough customers of actual real medium format cameras they can order whatever the hell they want and charge accordingly. I of course don't know who makes the Leica S sensor.
p.10 #9 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
I know of at least one former user of the 80MP Phase One back who recently moved to the Pentax 645z system after conducting extensive tests. He is quite pleased.
Dan
taran wrote:
I guess Phase One has enough customers of actual real medium format cameras they can order whatever the hell they want and charge accordingly. I of course don't know who makes the Leica S sensor.
p.10 #10 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
taran wrote:
Sony already made the choice, by making the sensor, and offering for external sale. Everything Fuji does is dependent on Sony CMOS, same with Hasselblad. Neither company have the resources to develop the camera they are developing if Sony hadn't greenlighted it.
A Sony bean counter came up with a brilliant plan about 5 years ago.
1) Build a sensor and offer it as an exclusive to Leica.
2) Amortize costs by bringing on two more manufacturers (Hasselblad, Fuji), so Leica cannot claim dominance and because Sony has all its resources devoted to FF right now.
3) Develop a new MF sensor.
4) Package new sensor in an RX body and fracture the market.
5) Sell the original sensor to Fuji and Hasselblad because they can go nowhere else.
Repeat.
3,4,5 haven't happened yet. But I bet you the shorts I am wearing they will.
Not a bad strategy actually, the only problem is that all photography decisions you think are being made by Fuji and Hassy are actually made by a Sony accountant who's principle occupation is how to leverage their monopoly.
You've got the companies a bit wrong, but this is exactly what is happening.
Oh and I have my suspicions about the SL sensor. Leica claims they don't get it from Sony, but the company they get it from might just be a middleman (coverup) reselling Sony sensors. There are way to many similarities to how the SL and A7II sensors get edited and look when you push/pull etc. Not saying that there aren't advantages to the SL body. I'd take an SL any day over an A7II (and I did). But I'm not very happy that the sensors are near identical since I was not to thrilled with the A7II sensor, nor now with the SL sensor.
On the flip side, the M240 sensor is completely different in the way it edits, push/pulls look different. I like the M240 sensor a lot. The M9 sensor was great, but that camera is history now, and the S-006 sensor is the best I've used. The S-007 sensor is also pretty bad, but I wouldn't be the best person to judge as I've never actually owned a properly working S-007 out of the two I had.
Regardless of Leica, your theory still stands because Sony is doing exactly that to pretty much every other manufacture aside from a select few Phase sensors, Most Canon sensors, and maybe Leica. Even the non-FF markets are turning to Sony.
Back on topic..
After careful consideration I've decided against the X1D even though it seems like a fun gadget. The sole reason is lack of fast lenses. I would have liked f/2.8 lenses for both the FLs, f/2 would be preferred. I know that would make the lenses bigger, and would ruin the effect. But I'm not a landscape shooter so I want what I want.
With that said, if Fuji releases even one fast lens, and the rendering is worth a damn, I'd buy into the system even though I've been decently happy with the X-T2 thus far. And am probably going to test the 5D4 either way. But I can't really see anything else coming to Photokina that would make me spend money. Especially since I've moved away from Leica.
p.10 #11 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
The strategy that Sony employs is one that's necessary if sales in this market continue to go down. There needs to be consolidation, and whether people like it or not, they have the patents necessary to make high dynamic range sensors. Not everyone can design a new sensor. It's an expensive endevor. Look at Canon. With all their expertise, you gotta wonder why they never entered the tiny sensor market. They basically left that market to Sony and new comers such as Samsung. I can only guess they couldn't afford it at the time, and now it's too late.
It's really expensive to get into this market. I am not sitting around waiting for more sensor choices because I know the opposite will happen. I wouldn't be surprise if companies like Dalsa and cimosys disappear from the large sensor market in the next few years. It really makes you scratch your chin and wonder how Sony suddenly became such a big supplier to the medium format market. I have a suspicion they came to Sony and not the other way around. Perhaps the low volume wasn't financially viable for Dalsa and the company that continued on kodaks sensors. Kinda remind me of the rumors about Sony or Canon buying a medium format maker a few years ago. Something about those two looking at the books from the MF companies. Where there's smoke there's fire. I bet they were looking at Phase's and Hassy's books to determine whether they wanted to risk jumping into such a small volume market to save these guys. See, there's more than one way to interpret these recent events.
p.10 #12 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
You know, I buy that those hipsters who Kickstarted the short-lived Digital Bolex disaster, or somebody like Blackmagic Design, can't afford to develop their own custom sensor of high quality. Maybe even Hasselblad after the series of disasters they've had.
But if we're saying it's unaffordable for Fuji or even Canon, somebody explain to me Dalsa/Phase One and especially Red being able to do it.
p.10 #13 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Fuji, are you reading this forum (I and many others hope you are!)?
For me, a single 45mm EFOV (what would that be, about 55?) and ƒ2 or ƒ2.8 and the UI we have become used to (which, apart from the electronic control points, resembles many film cameras from the 70s and 80s) and I am IN. This would be the carry everywhere, record daily life camera that I have sought for many years. Right now, the X-E2 and the 27/2.8 are doing that job, and effectively. But a sensor around 2X the area of a 35mm negative, that FL (which works for me significantly better than 35mm EFOV) and a slightly larger body ... what would be not to like?
p.10 #14 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Lee Saxon wrote:
You know, I buy that those hipsters who Kickstarted the short-lived Digital Bolex disaster, or somebody like Blackmagic Design, can't afford to develop their own custom sensor of high quality. Maybe even Hasselblad after the series of disasters they've had.
But if we're saying it's unaffordable for Fuji or even Canon, somebody explain to me Dalsa/Phase One and especially Red being able to do it.
We're looking at sensor tech from a photography perspective. A lot of these renegade companies aren't really designing for photography in the consumer sense of the word. There are a lot more uses then consumer photography for sensors like this. HOWEVER, if a company comes to them like Leica for instance and says we want 10,000 sensors with the option to buy 10,000 more at a reduced price. I'm sure these companies wouldn't say no, especially if they have the means/patents to make sensors that Leica would want.
Sony could jump into the market because aside from their photography division and electronics division, they also have insurance divisions and a LOT of money to back a new endeavour. Hence the sensor business. But it doesn't mean just because Sony is dominating the photography market with sensors that other companies won't come out of the woodwork and make sensors for things other then consumer photography. And if said company stumbles upon something advanced, it doesn't mean that Sony or Canon won't consider either leasing the patent or buying the company out entirely.
Canon still makes their own sensors for the most part. Fuji doesn't anymore because there is no point. They obviously have shifted focus to sensor toppings and algorithms. And nobody seems to complain about Fuji's jpg files, so somethings working. Also nobody seems to be complaining about Fuji's lens designs.. So why not just use Sony sensors since it's probably more cost effective and they can still maintain a different look then the A6300 for instance. I suppose if it got to the point where Sony decided they no longer wanted to supply sensors to Fuji just to try and kill Fuji off, I think at that point Fuji would source another sensor. And I'm sure some random company would come to Fuji's aid.
p.10 #15 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Just FYI:
The sensor used in the Leica SL is said to use Panasonic technology (not Sony) and is made by a company called TowerJazz which is 49% owned by Panasonic. It was confirmed by Leica not to be made by either Sony or CMOSIS (who make the Leica M sensor).
This is from TwoerJazz website:
"In 2014, TowerJazz completed a joint venture with Panasonic Corporation enabling TowerJazz to offer its customers state of the art 300mm technology including best of class 65nm CMOS image sensor dark current and quantum efficiency performance and additional 45nm digital technology, adding available capacity of approximately 800,000 wafers per year (8 inch equivalent) in three manufacturing facilities in Japan."
p.10 #16 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Tariq Gibran wrote:
[...]
The sensor used in the Leica SL is said to use Panasonic technology (not Sony) and is made by a company called TowerJazz which is 49% owned by Panasonic. It was confirmed by Leica not to be made by either Sony or CMOSIS (who make the Leica M sensor).
[...]
I just love the idea of Leica execs dealing with a company called "TowerJazz", which sounds like a nightclub in a 1980s anime.
p.10 #17 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Just FYI:
The sensor used in the Leica SL is said to use Panasonic technology (not Sony) and is made by a company called TowerJazz which is 49% owned by Panasonic. It was confirmed by Leica not to be made by either Sony or CMOSIS (who make the Leica M sensor).
This is from TwoerJazz website:
"In 2014, TowerJazz completed a joint venture with Panasonic Corporation enabling TowerJazz to offer its customers state of the art 300mm technology including best of class 65nm CMOS image sensor dark current and quantum efficiency performance and additional 45nm digital technology, adding available capacity of approximately 800,000 wafers per year (8 inch equivalent) in three manufacturing facilities in Japan."
p.10 #18 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Another FYI: Panasonic and Fujifilm have been partnered on a sensor design they call the 'organic sensor'. It's been mostly an R&D project but they've announced they've got something; at least a prototype working. Very interesting technology.
p.10 #19 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Just FYI:
The sensor used in the Leica SL is said to use Panasonic technology (not Sony) and is made by a company called TowerJazz which is 49% owned by Panasonic. It was confirmed by Leica not to be made by either Sony or CMOSIS (who make the Leica M sensor).
This is from TwoerJazz website:
"In 2014, TowerJazz completed a joint venture with Panasonic Corporation enabling TowerJazz to offer its customers state of the art 300mm technology including best of class 65nm CMOS image sensor dark current and quantum efficiency performance and additional 45nm digital technology, adding available capacity of approximately 800,000 wafers per year (8 inch equivalent) in three manufacturing facilities in Japan."
I'm well aware of this rumour.. And what Leica has said. I just don't believe it, way to coincidental for the SL sensor and the A7II sensor to share the EXACT same colors and other characteristics. But whatever, I don't really care all that much anymore... More interested in Fuji's MFD lens lineup. I'm cool with the 50mp Sony sensor, I've seen some great shots using that sensor. And I'm sure Fuji will tweak it in a pleasing way.
p.10 #20 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
If Fuji introduce a mirror less MF with short flange distance so that I can adapter a bunch S glass or 645 or lens like 80lux, 55OTus 135 APO, I am in.
This will be a fun system and good back up for S. I can see many people buy into it in this forum as well. Fuji is good company
There's going to be a juicy load of Hassy X1, Fuji DMF, Sony A9, and Sony DMF gear on the B&S board over the next few years. 