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Archive 2017 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)

  
 
charles.K
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p.2 #1 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


If this Fuji MF offering eventuates it will be a smart marketing move. There is no point competing with Sony FF with no product differentiation. Fuji has excellent background for MF and personally I would love to see their 2017 medium format camera and I sure it would be very competitively priced.


Sep 02, 2016 at 04:18 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #2 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
Things we will never see in my lifetime because of Sony:

FF mirrorless from anyone other than Sony.

Likely wrong

Square format.
Likely right, since few are interested and many can crop. (Square format was at least partly a way to get more shots on a film...

Multiple exposure options that rival film.
Hmmm. You can do multiple exposures in some digital cameras now, and you can do things that go well beyond film in terms of multiple exposures by expanding your horizons to post. (Examples, you can take the brightest or darkest or the areas that change from a set of perhaps hundreds of exposures...)

Xpan format 2*35mm.
Not much interest in such a thing.

Vertical sensor (olympus trip/110 format)
Why? You can tilt the camera 90 degrees. If that is uncomfortable use a grip. ;-)

Viewfinder options that include TLR style cameras, or hasselblad style 500 systems with boxlike bodies and an OLED on top.
TLR is very unlikely. You are probably right about putting the OLED on top, but the original reason for that wasn't that it worked better, but that it made it possible — you couldn't put a display on the back. (If you shoot from the tripod, you'll generally not find a top display all that useful.)

Multishot systems.
?

Multilens systems.

You mean like the rotating mount for several primes, as found on some old movie cameras? Or some of the old multi-focal length non-zoom lenses? I wonder why anyone would want those today when zooms have progressed to the point that they equal or exceed the performance of those lenses.

The list goes on and on, but if you want to have fun, or be an experimental photographer, essentially you have to shoot film, because Sony doesn't do fun, or allow you to differentiate your product in any way that would make yours superior to their haphazard mileu of ergonomic nightmare cameras.

Hmmm... I have fun and I experiment, and I stopped using film about 15 years ago. ;-)

Dan



Sep 02, 2016 at 04:31 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #3 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


charles.K wrote:
If this Fuji MF offering eventuates it will be a smart marketing move. There is no point competing with Sony FF with no product differentiation. Fuji has excellent background for MF and personally I would love to see their 2017 medium format camera and I sure it would be very competitively priced.


You remind me of what appears to be an important part (or two) of Fujifilm's strategy. First, to not compete in the full frame camera area — thereby producing very good 1.5x cropped sensor cameras and lenses and, we assume, but skipping past full frame to mini MF. Second, and related, to generally not do me-too products but to instead zig a bit where others zag, as with the originally retro X-trans cameras.

Dan

Edited on Sep 02, 2016 at 05:56 PM · View previous versions



Sep 02, 2016 at 04:35 PM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #4 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


I like the sounds of "DSLR style body", but that I'll believe when I see. Other key words would be "focal plane shutter" and "<25mm flange distance". I'd prefer to hear "not an X-trans sensor" as well, but I could live with it.

Come on, Fuji (or Pentax, or Sony). I've got a couple of lenses itching for bigger home.



Sep 02, 2016 at 05:54 PM
taran
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p.2 #5 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
Hmmm... I have fun and I experiment, and I stopped using film about 15 years ago. ;-)

Dan


That's great that your experiments you don't feel are conflated by digital. And I should say up front, Sony owes me nothing. I am merely pointing out that many things that were available as niche products in the film era, simply don't exist anymore, and no matter how complicated your post processing, cannot mimic the elegant simplicity of certain quirky systems that have given us some memorable shots.

At the end of the film era, $100 world gets you a 6*6 Holga, a roll of film and some 8*10's, plus a negative that you can blow up to 100 inches if you wanted.

Digital, FWIW, will never offer this.

And that's not saying all the things you mention aren't great, or that film, or Holga's, aren't a bitch to work with, they are... I'm just saying, for some of us, digital photography might be a compression of artistic expression, rather than an expansion.



Sep 02, 2016 at 06:05 PM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #6 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
It's 2016 and there is one manufacturer of FF mirrorless cameras (leica not withstanding). An artificial monopoly has been created, and quite frankly, the dream of inventive mirrorless has been completely extinguished by Sony.

Things we will never see in my lifetime because of Sony:

FF mirrorless from anyone other than Sony.
Square format.
Multiple exposure options that rival film.
Xpan format 2*35mm.
Vertical sensor (olympus trip/110 format)
Viewfinder options that include TLR style cameras, or hasselblad style 500 systems with boxlike bodies and an OLED on top.
Multishot systems.
Multilens systems.

The list goes on and on, but if you want to have fun, or be an experimental photographer,
...Show more

You know, Taran, when you started your anti-Sony tirades, you had a valid point. The industry as a whole has become too reliant on Sony sensors. Blaming Sony alone for that is misguided, but it is valid.

Now you're just burying that point in what sounds like paranoid lunacy. Are the voices in your head telling you Sony squashed someone's big plans to bring out a digital TLR or Hassy 500? Did they tell you Sony has denied the undying popularity of the 110 format. You can tell them from me that they've lied to you about multishot systems. Both Pentax and Hassy have them... using Sony sensors.



Sep 02, 2016 at 06:28 PM
chez
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p.2 #7 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
That's great that your experiments you don't feel are conflated by digital. And I should say up front, Sony owes me nothing. I am merely pointing out that many things that were available as niche products in the film era, simply don't exist anymore, and no matter how complicated your post processing, cannot mimic the elegant simplicity of certain quirky systems that have given us some memorable shots.

At the end of the film era, $100 world gets you a 6*6 Holga, a roll of film and some 8*10's, plus a negative that you can blow up to 100 inches if
...Show more

I agree with you. I shoot both and both mediums deliver different results. One is NOT better than the other, just different. People that claim digital is better than film just are showing their ignorance. I have beautiful prints made from my medium and large format films...just like I have beautiful prints made from my digital images.

I don't know why one has to spout off how they have moved on from film...just shoot with whatever turns your crank without needing to crow about it.



Sep 02, 2016 at 07:30 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #8 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
That's great that your experiments you don't feel are conflated by digital. And I should say up front, Sony owes me nothing. I am merely pointing out that many things that were available as niche products in the film era, simply don't exist anymore, and no matter how complicated your post processing, cannot mimic the elegant simplicity of certain quirky systems that have given us some memorable shots.

At the end of the film era, $100 world gets you a 6*6 Holga, a roll of film and some 8*10's, plus a negative that you can blow up to 100 inches if
...Show more

You should know that I started with film and used it for decades. I can relate to having a certain nostalgic feeling for it, but photographically I'm happy to move on. Fortunately film technology and materials are still available for those of you who prefer to continue to work with them, and there are still folks doing beautiful work in that medium — a few come to mind: Jerry Uelsmann, John Sexton, others.

On the other hand, if the hope is that digital cameras will necessarily replicate all of the functionality and (sometimes lovely) quirks of film gear, I have a feeling that probably won't happen. For example, I doubt that we'll see a high quality digital TLR like the Rollei and Yashica cameras I used so many years ago — that design solved a problem that is likely to be solved in a very different way in the era of mirrorless camera designs.

YMMV,

Dan

Edited on Sep 02, 2016 at 09:04 PM · View previous versions



Sep 02, 2016 at 07:44 PM
taran
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p.2 #9 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
You should know that I started with film and used it for decades. I can relate to having a certain nostalgic feeling for it, but photographically I'm happy to move on. Fortunately film technology and materials are still available for those of you who prefer to continue to work with them, and there are still folks doing beautiful work in that medium — a few come to mind: Jerry Uelsmann, John Sexton, others.

YMMV,

Dan


+++




Sep 02, 2016 at 09:02 PM
taran
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p.2 #10 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


freaklikeme wrote:
Are the voices in your head telling you Sony squashed someone's big plans to bring out a digital TLR or Hassy 500? .


Are you saying Rollei or Hasselblad didn't try? They just wanted to let both systems, which have been around for decades, die?

What's more likely.



Sep 02, 2016 at 09:09 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #11 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
Are you saying Rollei or Hasselblad didn't try? They just wanted to let both systems, which have been around for decades, die?

What's more likely.


Yes, over and over again. Hasselblad tried to kill off the square with the film based 645 H1 in 2002. That electronic behemoth, like it's current digital counterpart, is about as far away from the silky, mechanical feel of a 500 blad as can be. At the time, Hasselblad was essentially competing against a ton of used 500CM/ V equipment flooding the market. You can bet there were some within Hasselblad that really wanted to see the V system go away sooner than later.

Rollei attempted the same thing much earlier - though they kept the square - with the SLX in 1976 followed by the 6000 series onward. Sure, they kept the TLR around as an ultra expensive, niche/ bling-type product but it would never see sales as it once did. Digital did not kill these systems and certainly not Sony. Both the TLR and the classic, mechanical V based Hassys were on their way out long ago.




Sep 02, 2016 at 10:54 PM
adamdewilde
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p.2 #12 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
That's great that your experiments you don't feel are conflated by digital. And I should say up front, Sony owes me nothing. I am merely pointing out that many things that were available as niche products in the film era, simply don't exist anymore, and no matter how complicated your post processing, cannot mimic the elegant simplicity of certain quirky systems that have given us some memorable shots.

At the end of the film era, $100 world gets you a 6*6 Holga, a roll of film and some 8*10's, plus a negative that you can blow up to 100 inches if
...Show more

I get where you are going with this. And I think the core principle here is that Sony has hit full frame mirrorless in such an aggressive way, that it's hard for someone else to hit back.

You do have to keep in mind that most of your points however stem from either trying to squeeze more frames out of existing film sizes. Or simply just altering the intended use of the film to suit the camera. And a few of the points you made do exist in digital. They just didn't work out as well as the manufactures planned (as in weren't popular), and most of us have forgotten about them.

And keep in mind I can turn a tissue box into a camera that can give me 100inch prints. That's just the nature of film. Of course digital won't get to this point. So why not just shoot film?



Sep 02, 2016 at 11:17 PM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #13 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
Are you saying Rollei or Hasselblad didn't try? They just wanted to let both systems, which have been around for decades, die?

What's more likely.


I have no idea if it was "wanted to" or "had to because they knew the market wouldn't be interested enough in digital versions to justify the cost" but they let them die. Hassy and Rollie had a decade in digital to produce what you want before Sony started producing MF sensors, and they never did it. How is that Sony's fault?



Sep 03, 2016 at 12:28 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #14 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


I'm trying to think of a perspective to address this.

There are things that many of us got used to in the film era, and we acquired instincts for working with that technology. Loving photography, we loved those techniques and tools — for the most part. And for many of us who came to photography in that era there are some of the same deep, personal associations that we have with other experiences we had in our youth — our first car, traveling by train, drive-in movies, etc.

I'm serious. None of that is meant to be a put down or to be argumentative.

Things worked the ways they worked mostly for practical reasons. TLR and SLR and rangefinder cameras were designed as they were because they provided workable ways to integrate viewfinders and focusing with film that had to be held in a particular position behind the lens system. Logically, for example, a system that displays images "backwards" isn't the ideal one, but it was a necessity and we learned to work with it and even like it. A system that uses a separate lens mounted above the image lens for viewing the scene and focusing (by means of a big knob!) isn't necessarily the ideal viewing and focusing system, but it was the best option with that technology.

Of course, that exact technology remains available for those who prefer it, either because it remains more comfortable and familiar for them or because they happen to prefer it. You can still buy and use the cameras, lenses, film, papers, chemicals, and all the rest. But, as with cars and airplanes and televisions and cookware and clothing and audio recording and almost everything else, as a species we continue to refine and improve and increase the capabilities of things.

While not everyone will agree, the trajectory of these changes is pretty clear. When I look at all the folks I know who mastered film-based photography, I note that they responded to the change in a range of ways — but eventually every one of them responded. Some were early adopters, playing with early digital cameras in the 1990s (when I used my first digital camera), while others of their colleagues continued to believe that digital would never be truly useful. But over the past two decades, virtually every one of them saw the writing on the wall. That writing doesn't say, "You may not use film." The writing says, "Digital technologies are increasingly powerful and can produce photographs of great beauty and high quality."

And manufacturers would mostly be unwise to try to resist this. They could, of course, put a digital sensor in a Rollei or, as has been done, a 4 x 5 LF camera. But by and large, with some number of exceptions, photographers are not interested, and a manufacturer who would "go there" is either committing corporate suicide or else has made a decision to operate in a niche market.

I'm not saying what any individual should do in their own photography, and I have good friends (and excellent photographers) who continue to work almost entirely with film technologies. (Though even they are not averse to scanning their film, or producing digital negatives so that they can make big contact prints, or to using small digital cameras for some of their work.)

Take care,

Dan



Sep 03, 2016 at 08:47 AM
carstenw
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p.2 #15 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
It's 2016 and there is one manufacturer of FF mirrorless cameras (leica not withstanding).


In other words, there are currently two...



Sep 03, 2016 at 12:41 PM
retrofocus
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p.2 #16 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


taran wrote:
[
The list goes on and on, but if you want to have fun, or be an experimental photographer, essentially you have to shoot film.......



This is one point I at least partially agree with (I shoot both film and digital), but it is fully independent from Sony. Film is different (not better!) than digital - especially the difference for B&W photography and printing with the traditional process is obvious. For fine art and certain street photography, I would definitely recommend film.

For the price of a modern DSLR or mirrorless camera, you can buy a lot of film and photosensitive paper.

Main advantage of digital generally speaking is the faster result to get and the process is simpler - no dealing with chemicals, development/processing times, drying and digitizing film negatives. For some this is a hassle better to be avoided, for others this just makes it fun (like for me). Since I shoot film again, I spend more time to compose well and to get the shot in a single frame right. But in the end it is just a personal matter of choice and preference.

Regarding that new digital cameras might replace at some point fully all existing film cameras due to added/included capabilities, I see just the opposite: I would have never expected the Polaroid camera to come back. Now it has become fashionable again - I saw in the past few weeks several youngsters shooting with Polaroid and Polaroid film. It is a misconception to believe that a digital "perfect" camera will be always seen as better - people nowadays even purposely go for the less perfect film cameras and less perfect/sharp lenses to stand out from the masses of high tech digital shooters. The latter is still a niche, but a growing niche (just look at the fast growing film shooter groups on fb for example).



Sep 03, 2016 at 12:45 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #17 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


To get us back on the Fujifilm MF topic once again...

... if I were to consider getting one, I would be less interested in the MF rangefinder design and more interested in something more oriented to tripod-based work, perhaps a design roughly along the lines of the Pentax 645z. I know opinions vary, but for me there wouldn't be too many advantages in having the larger sensor in a camera that is designed for handheld shooting, since current MFT, crop, and FF cameras already do a great job for that kind of shooting and come in smaller packages more amenable to things like street photography.

If I were to use MF digital, my use would be for some subset of my landscape photography — the part not requiring very long focal length lenses.

I'd be interested to hear from those who might prefer that it be a rangefinder-style body. Why is that attractive to you in a a mini MF camera?

Dan



Sep 03, 2016 at 03:39 PM
chez
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p.2 #18 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
To get us back on the Fujifilm MF topic once again...

... if I were to consider getting one, I would be less interested in the MF rangefinder design and more interested in something more oriented to tripod-based work, perhaps a design roughly along the lines of the Pentax 645z. I know opinions vary, but for me there wouldn't be too many advantages in having the larger sensor in a camera that is designed for handheld shooting, since current MFT, crop, and FF cameras already do a great job for that kind of shooting and come in smaller packages more amenable
...Show more

Size. A rangefinder style camera is smaller than a DSLR like body. Compare the Fuji 6x7 rangefinder film cameras to the Pentax 6x7 behemoth.

You can use a rangefinder off a tripod. I use my Fuji 6x9 off a tripod a lot. Nothing in the rangefinder style camera prevents using it on a tripod.




Sep 03, 2016 at 04:44 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #19 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


I'd like to have a Fujifilm XMF670 "rangefinder style" digital medium format camera, with a 233 MP sensor (60mm x 70mm, at 241 ppmm), and a super-big, articulated rear LCD. It would have a series of manual focus Fujinon XMF EBC lenses at f/4 and fixed focal lengths of: 16mm, 20mm, 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm, and 150mm.

The bodies of Fuji "Texas Leica" GW/GSW 670/690 rangefinder cameras were way smaller than the bodies of contemporary 670/680 SLR cameras. Same goes for the sizes of rangefinder vs SLR for the 645 format.



Sep 03, 2016 at 04:47 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #20 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


jcolwell wrote:
I'd like to have a Fujifilm XMF670 "rangefinder style" digital medium format camera, with a 233 MP sensor (60mm x 70mm, at 241 ppmm), and a super-big, articulated rear LCD. It would have a series of manual focus Fujinon XMF EBC lenses at f/4 and fixed focal lengths of: 16mm, 20mm, 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm, and 150mm.

The bodies of Fuji "Texas Leica" GW/GSW 670/690 rangefinder cameras were way smaller than the bodies of contemporary 670/680 SLR cameras. Same goes for the sizes of rangefinder vs SLR for the 645 format.


Leaving aside your modest MP sensor requirements... ;-)

.. why a rangefinder design? It is a serious question.

What I'm trying to understand is why one would want to use a larger format camera off the tripod these days. It seems to me that given the image quality of smaller sensor systems these days that the even higher quality MF sensor system wouldn't provide any meaningful advantage when hand holding the camera. For handheld stuff, wouldn't it just make sense to use a smaller format camera, either mirrorless or SLR, and get excellent image quality and even smaller, lighter gear? ("Back in the day" folks did the equivalent of street photography using MF, but that hardly seems useful today, right?)

Is it just that you would want a smaller body size in MF? Or, more likely, mini-MF?

Thanks,

Dan

Edited on Sep 03, 2016 at 05:20 PM · View previous versions



Sep 03, 2016 at 05:16 PM
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