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Archive 2016 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #1 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


bhollis wrote:
i.e., where Canon was going/not going with its señor tech...


Perhaps Señor Tech will open one of those taco trucks we've been told to expect on every corner? Sounds great to me!

Don't you just love auto-correct? (Which tried to change that term to "auto-cornet!") ;-)



Sep 09, 2016 at 05:55 PM
whumber
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p.8 #2 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


RSHPhotography wrote:
You know in 2018 Nikon is going to release the D5s with low ISO dynamic range cleaned up right? Lol

I honestly think the 5d4 is the best overall camera you can buy right now unless you need reach and more speed.



If I buy another DSLR system it will be solely for sports so will likely be either a 1DXII or D5, that's really the only area where my current m43 kit is lacking for what I'm doing now. That said, if the upcoming E-M1ii shows enough improvement in AF then I may just stick with that and just rent the big DSLR combos as needed. It would need to be at least as good as a 5D3, especially with initial focus acquisition, but I'm not really holding my breath on that.



Sep 09, 2016 at 10:27 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.8 #3 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


I mean it's a little embarrassing that they're not top-of-the-charts since this is the newest sensor, but at 13+ stops what percentage of photographic situations have they got covered, 98? How often are you going to say "5D IV couldn't take this shot, I'd have to bring a D750" really?


Sep 09, 2016 at 11:10 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.8 #4 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


gdanmitchell wrote:
Presuming, for the sake of discussion, that that is the case, why does it matter


Exactly! That is my point as well. It only matters if one needs to lift shadows more than ones camera can allow. Other than that, it may merely be a sentiment of not having "the best". Or whatever. I really don't know and I've never understood the fierceness of the DR discussions much. Don't know what good it is having a fast car when all you do is obey the speed limit anyway. Or, in this case, we have a quite a speedy car that may not be the ultimate, but that we drive pretty fast and enjoy it.



Sep 10, 2016 at 05:57 AM
eyal.ma
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p.8 #5 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
I mean it's a little embarrassing that they're not top-of-the-charts since this is the newest sensor, but at 13+ stops what percentage of photographic situations have they got covered, 98? How often are you going to say "5D IV couldn't take this shot, I'd have to bring a D750" really?


For the price range tbh, the 5D4 is overall smack in the middle.
You want enthusiastic film or photography? 80D. You want reach and sport? 7D2. You want studio and fine details? 5DsR. You want brick for journalism / speed / wedding? 1Dx2.
The 5D4 is pretty much all of them in an average sort of way.

So overall for 99.99% of usages which aren't specialised photography, the 5D4 is going to be right there.



Sep 10, 2016 at 07:44 AM
RustyBug
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p.8 #6 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
I mean it's a little embarrassing that they're not top-of-the-charts


I just don't get this "embarrasing" part. I mean, is it embarrassing for Chevy to not have a bed bolt larger than Ford (who strives to ensure they use the larges bed bolt in the industry @ raising the bar year after year).

Would it not be equally embarrassing for SoNikon that they released a new camera model after the 5Ds/R ... and it didn't trump the 50MP resolution of the 5Ds/R? Where does it come from that not having the OMG top of a given specification is embarrassing for a mfr?

As to the DR thing ... Fuji had the top DR for quite a long time with their SuperCCD sensor, and nobody ever thought it was embarrassing that CaNikon didn't have more DR than the Fuji SuperCCD sensor. It wasn't until the Sony bandwagon started chanted supremacy in DR that this became the issue that it has morphed into and people started touting how embarrassing it is for Canon to be "lagging" in DR.

Why is it that NOW, it is "embarrassing"?

NOTE: This isn't directed @ Lee, per se. There has been a long standing assertion by various folks that Canon should be "embarrassed" by their sensors. Personally, I think this is as much hogwash as it is to say that Chevy should be embarrassed to not have bed bolts larger than Ford's.

To Lee's point ... in what % of situations will the smaller bed bolt of Chevy make a real world difference? +1 @ same goes for the diff between OMG, Canon's "lagging" DR and someone else's. Is all this "embarrasment" gonna keep you from getting your image? If it is ...






Sep 10, 2016 at 08:01 AM
RustyBug
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p.8 #7 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


eyal.ma wrote:
For the price range tbh, the 5D4 is overall smack in the middle.
You want enthusiastic film or photography? 80D. You want reach and sport? 7D2. You want studio and fine details? 5DsR. You want brick for journalism / speed / wedding? 1Dx2.
The 5D4 is pretty much all of them in an average sort of way.

So overall for 99.99% of usages which aren't specialised photography, the 5D4 is going to be right there.


Bingo ... exactly where Canon wants it to be @ ready for anything (even if not the top spec of everything).



Sep 10, 2016 at 08:09 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.8 #8 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


I still have one body to add to my kit. Sold 5D and 5D2, picked up 5DsR which is all I have now. My wishes are (1) second FF body to have a pair for weddings and event work (2) higher fps for sports (3) smaller file sizes (4) weather sealing (5) good high ISO performance for indoor sports. I absolutely loved the three 1D bodies I had for a short while so the 1Dx2 seems to meet all requirements. I currently have a loaner 1Dx2 for a week and it's fantastic but the 1Dx may fit the bill just as well.


Sep 10, 2016 at 11:08 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.8 #9 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


RustyBug wrote:
I just don't get this "embarrasing" part. I mean, is it embarrassing for Chevy to not have a bed bolt larger than Ford (who strives to ensure they use the larges bed bolt in the industry @ raising the bar year after year).

Would it not be equally embarrassing for SoNikon that they released a new camera model after the 5Ds/R ... and it didn't trump the 50MP resolution of the 5Ds/R? Where does it come from that not having the OMG top of a given specification is embarrassing for a mfr?


Disagree. I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

More megapixels is not universally better. There are legitimate reasons to want less megapixels (or a smaller/lighter truck) in some scenarios, namely for speed. It'd be embarrassing for Nikon not to be able to get the highest megapixel sensor if they were trying to corner the studio market, but would be meaningless if they were trying to corner the sports market.

You can't say that about dynamic range. There's no situation in which less is an advantage. More is always, and objectively, better. So yes, it's a little embarrassing for Canon that their brand new sensor performs objectively worse than older competitors in its class.

HOWEVER, I was making the opposite point as you seemed to think. I was saying is that the 5D IV is *good enough* for the vast majority of situations so we're probably past the point that dynamic range in full frame cameras is an issue worth major discussion.

Let's be honest, though. My previous paragraph doesn't matter. That we don't actually *need* the extra stop or two of the D750, D810, or A7r II doesn't matter. Let's talk about the market. It's shrinking. Canon's in the lead, but they need to grow and protect that. Hell, long-term they need to knock Sony or Nikon out. The 5D IV being another moderate iteration of an already-great camera that will sell great to already-Canon-owners but not convince one Nikon owner that it's time to invest in the switch? Looking at the long game, that's a mediocre result.



Sep 10, 2016 at 11:26 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #10 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
I mean it's a little embarrassing that they're not top-of-the-charts...


Embarrassing? Hard for me to understand that.

- - - -

Again — for perhaps the 125th time — more dynamic range (like less noise, excellent color, improved lenses, better system design, etc.) is a fine thing, and I'll take it with no complaints when I get it. Anything that improves the performance of a tool is ultimately a good thing, at least if it comes at little or no additional cost or at least at a cost commensurate with the advantages it may bring.

If I were at a point where I needed to buy new gear, and I was comparing two options that were otherwise exactly equal but one had somewhat larger dynamic range than the other, I might well choose the higher DR option. But that is near the choice we have before us. Such choices typically involve a range of performance elements that are important: AF speed and accuracy, inconvenience of giving up hard won intuitions about interface, lens availability and performance, cost, ergonomic aspects, and much more. So DR becomes one to balance against many others, and consequently, especially if achieving some additional DR means sacrificing some other things, one has to ask, "How much of a difference will this make?"

When it comes to DR, while the boundaries between the possibilities are often somewhat hazy, there are basically three circumstances in which we find ourselves photographically.

1. The subject is such that the subject's DR does not exceed that of any of the cameras we might choose to use. This, by far, is the most typical scenario. If it wasn't, we would be unable to make the majority of photographs as a result of dynamic range limitations of cameras, but that simply isn't the case.

2. The subject's dynamic range exceeds the capacity of any of the camera options that we might have to choose from in our work. This is the second most likely scenario — the photograph that includes the sun itself along with subjects in deep shade that we would like to make more visible than they actually are, for example, or a night photograph with near black deep shadows and a subject close to a very bright light.

3. The third most likely scenario is the scene in which one camera is incapable of dealing with the dynamic range of the scene and the other is capable. This can happen, but the boundary range is quite narrow in actual DR terms, and it occurs in a very narrow range along the entire range of luminosities that we photograph. In my own experience — and I do night photography and photograph other subjects with wide dynamic ranges — it is so rare that I don't actually have any photographs in which the DR was too great for my camera and some other camera would have had enough and in which I couldn't get an excellent result with normal, known techniques.

Now I suppose that if someone lives most of their photographic life in that narrow third zone that their need to more DR at the expense of other things (fast AF, cost, compatibility with other gear, etc) might rise above that of some other photographers. But I only rarely hear this sort of photographer going on about DR.

DR is a real thing, and more of it is good. But it isn't the huge issue, much less the central issue, and some want to make it.

Dan



Sep 10, 2016 at 11:26 AM
RustyBug
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p.8 #11 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


I understand the point @ good enough >98% of applications ... then why would it be embarrassing?


Sep 10, 2016 at 11:56 AM
garyvot
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p.8 #12 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
The 5D IV being another moderate iteration of an already-great camera that will sell great to already-Canon-owners but not convince one Nikon owner that it's time to invest in the switch? Looking at the long game, that's a mediocre result.


But is it a "moderate iteration" really? That's seems to be the crux of the disconnect. Plenty would argue that DPAF is a game changer. Certain other improvements like dynamic range don't feel moderate at all, they feel quite significant.

There are cameras with more resolution but lesser performance. There are cameras with faster framerates but lesser resolution. But if you want just one camera for everything, this is *still* going to be it for many photographers, and the bump in specs seem quite satisfactory all around.

Canon is perfectly happy when you decide to buy a 5DS R or a 1DX II instead of their shiny new 5D Mark IV, BTW. That is product differentiation working as intended.



Sep 10, 2016 at 11:57 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #13 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


RustyBug wrote:
I understand the point @ good enough >98% of applications ... then why would it be embarrassing?


I just realized that starting with "good for 98% of photos" is a starting point for making my point a lot more succinctly.

If Camera A is good for 98% of photos then Camera B with more DR gets you 98.3% of photos. Maybe.

;-)



Sep 10, 2016 at 12:39 PM
eyal.ma
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p.8 #14 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
Let's be honest, though. My previous paragraph doesn't matter. That we don't actually *need* the extra stop or two of the D750, D810, or A7r II doesn't matter. Let's talk about the market. It's shrinking. Canon's in the lead, but they need to grow and protect that. Hell, long-term they need to knock Sony or Nikon out. The 5D IV being another moderate iteration of an already-great camera that will sell great to already-Canon-owners but not convince one Nikon owner that it's time to invest in the switch? Looking at the long game, that's a mediocre result.


There are several very big problems to hold the market.

1. Sony enthusiastic will push sony on their friends as well as pro photographers who "find the light" and push it as well.
2. Nikon so far enjoy their "canon alternative" status in that they are not a needed alternative like sony is to canon, so they can keep their current market.
3. Mirrorless cameras are also pushing on the DSLR market.

So overall, the market will keep on shrinking, and the DSLR market will get smaller more and more every year.
Canon do not really need to keep holding onto that market. They need to innovate in order to burst the bubble and make a new one.
For example in 2-3 years, transfer all their cameras into mirrorless (like the rumoured M5 as an example). Or bring something new to the table.

Sony for example are working hard to fix all of their cameras weaknesses (battery, focus speed, ergonomics), which will close the gap. The same with the M43 systems which are already eating away on the low and mid ends of the DSLR.

The moment canon can give up on the mirror, but keep their current lenses lineup without forcing people to switch (or for example sell DSLRs with an included original adapter), they will be able to keep hold on the market. Until that time, it is going to be eaten away.



Sep 10, 2016 at 12:46 PM
IrishDino
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p.8 #15 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Just wait for day Sony stops selling sensors to Nikon.

It's like Apple selling its Ax SoC to Samsumg



Sep 10, 2016 at 02:45 PM
Matt Grum
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p.8 #16 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


rabbitmountain wrote:
I'm wondering how many of us lift shadows more than two stops on a regular basis.

...

since DR is such a much talked about thing, I can only assume that many photographers actually want to use that ability. So what type of shots do we talk about? I haven't had a single problem with shadows lifting in over 10.000 first images on my now 4 month old 5DsR.


That's a pretty narrow view of dynamic range. Ever have an image with a blown highlight or washed out sky? It's not just about lifting shadows, everything is relative - increased dynamic range also allows you to pull the highlights down by the same amount. The 5D mkIII had very good high ISO performance, but only if the image was exposed correctly, if you underexposed a low light shot the results were not great.

I clearly didn't find the physic metering mode on the 5D3 as mine would assume everything was 18% grey, and would get the exposure wrong sometimes...




Sep 10, 2016 at 03:40 PM
Matt Grum
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p.8 #17 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


gdanmitchell wrote:
There are situations in which more DR is a good thing, and anyone should welcome ongoing improvements in this area. However, I could never figure out why it became such a huge deal for so many folks.


It's probably because there are rarely any attributes that are that different between brands. Canon and Nikon are extremely close in resolution, high ISO performance, framerates, AF points, buffer size, price, body size/weight etc.

A two and half stop difference (or a factor of five in linear terms) is quite a lot. Again the standard disclaimer applies - not everyone wants/needs increased dynamic range. The only thing I can think of that's comparable is when Canon offered full frame bodies and Nikon didn't. I remember back then there were a lot of threads on the Nikon forum about how people didn't need full frame, crop sensors were just as good and the differences were very small etc. Those sentiments suddenly vanished when Nikon released the D3, and I'm assuming the same thing will happen with people claiming they don't need increased dynamic range now Canon have it...


Edited on Sep 11, 2016 at 04:57 AM · View previous versions



Sep 10, 2016 at 03:49 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #18 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Matt Grum wrote:
It's probably because there are rarely any attributes that are that different between brands. Canon and Nikon are extremely close in resolution, high ISO performance, framerates, AF points, buffer size, price, body size/weight etc.

A two and half stop difference (or a factor of five in linear terms) is quite a lot. Again the standard disclaimer applies - not everyone wants/needs increased dynamic range. The only thing I can think of that's comparable is when Canon offered full frame bodies and Nikon didn't. I remember back then there were a lot of threads on the Nikon forum about how
...Show more

I'm not in that latter category — clearly, based on what I just wrote and on what I've consistently written in the past.

I'm going back to my point about there being a very narrow vector within which the added dynamic range makes the difference. I've written elsewhere about this a few times, and one example I shared was based on a photograph made with a 5DII some years back. See the link for all the details: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2012/12/22/post-processing-a-shadow-recovery-example

Basically, most of the scene was in a big shadow while in the upper portion the early morning sun and sky was much, much brighter. Knowing the challenge this might produce, I actually bracketed shots at the time of exposure. In the end it turned out that a single 5DII raw file could be manipulated in post (in the same ways we would have to manipulate any high dynamic range capture to get it to fit the DR of prints. For fun, I took a worst exposure and shared the starting point...

http://i1.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/images/kolob/01KolobRaw.jpg

... and the process to get to...

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/images/kolob/06ShadedAreaCurve.jpg

... and a scan of a crop from an actual print...

http://i1.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/images/kolob/07ScannedPrintSection.jpg

With my 5DsR the situation is even more pliable, and I have yet to encounter any scene that I couldn't print from a single manipulated exposure. I share some examples here: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/07/19/the-canon-5ds-r-dynamic-range-examples, in which I started with several exposures...

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/015DsRBracketedExposures.jpg

... then selected one of them...

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/02DarkestExposure.jpg

... and post-processed it in ACR to produce...

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/03ExposureAdjustments.jpg

It is possible to conceive of scenes in which neither the 5DII nor the 5DsR would have quite enough DR for a single exposure but the range above that over which the Sony sensors would have enough today is quite small and the number of subjects in that range is tiny.

Again, it isn't that DR is irrelevant. It is that its importance has been vastly overinflated by some.

YMMV,

Dan



Sep 10, 2016 at 04:46 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.8 #19 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


gdanmitchell wrote:
Embarrassing? Hard for me to understand that...


RustyBug wrote:
I understand the point @ good enough >98% of applications ... then why would it be embarrassing?


Guys, come on. It's the newest sensor in its class but not the best. You *know* that was not Canon's intention and you *know* they're not thrilled about it. That's all I was saying. I never said it wasn't good enough, I never said it was bad, but all three of us know for sure that Canon *wanted* to make it the best in its class and would've if they could've. Stop giving me a hard time.

garyvot wrote:
But is it a "moderate iteration" really? That's seems to be the crux of the disconnect. Plenty would argue that DPAF is a game changer. Certain other improvements like dynamic range don't feel moderate at all, they feel quite significant.


I was being generous. The distance between the last two 5D updates are days in the life of a snail. Compare the size, price, and specs of a Red One to a Raven for an idea of how the 5D IV should look in comparison to a 5D. This is getting absurd.

I'm not singling out Canon. "Same concept, same control system, no EVF option, go screw yourself if you want to upload photos to social media like every consumer does today, slight boost in megapixels" has been the game for all DSLRs for a while now and I for one am having trouble staying awake (and having trouble not replacing my $$$ DSLR and lens collection with an iPhone 7). I don't want to see a D760 or a 5D V until they can make a jump in sensor performance the size of the one between the D2x and the D3. And it better also have some genuinely new ideas about connectivity and usability, and a damn powerful processor, and a raw histogram (yes, I know a literal raw histogram isn't very useful). DPAF was such an innovation, but it doesn't count as the 5D IV's as it was introduced several cameras ago.



Sep 10, 2016 at 10:56 PM
garyvot
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p.8 #20 · Canon 5D4 dynamic range analyzed from RAWs


Lee Saxon wrote:
Guys, come on. It's the newest sensor in its class but not the best. You *know* that was not Canon's intention and you *know* they're not thrilled about it. That's all I was saying. I never said it wasn't good enough, I never said it was bad, but all three of us know for sure that Canon *wanted* to make it the best in its class and would've if they could've. Stop giving me a hard time.

I was being generous. The distance between the last two 5D updates are days in the life of a snail. Compare the size,
...Show more

If you say so. That you can call out DSLR makers for lack of innovation while referencing an iPhone 7 is... interesting.

It sounds like you want a full frame mirrorless from Canon. Fair enough, but this isn't that camera, not should it be, in my opinion. DSLRs happen to work for a lot of people.



Sep 11, 2016 at 07:48 AM
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