That second full size image of the buildings with sky and clouds certainly shows a lot of noise (in the deep blue sky) for an ISO 100 image. Since that's a raw conversion, I wonder why? The rest of the images look fine.
Jul 06, 2016 at 07:15 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.36 #2 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Tariq Gibran wrote:
That second full size image of the buildings with sky and clouds certainly shows a lot of noise (in the deep blue sky) for an ISO 100 image. Since that's a raw conversion, I wonder why? The rest of the images look fine.
Tariq, that is a good observation and question. My guess is an attempt at too much highlight recovery, but the files are processed using the defaults from the H6-50c digital back. Some tweaks in the RAW conversion might be needed.
p.36 #4 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
DPR has also published a small pre-production sample gallery. Images are only with the 90mm. Low ISO on strobe looks very good and the lens appears to be very sharp in the plane of focus.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
That second full size image of the buildings with sky and clouds certainly shows a lot of noise (in the deep blue sky) for an ISO 100 image. Since that's a raw conversion, I wonder why? The rest of the images look fine.
EXIF shows exposure of ISO 100 1/800 f/8. IMO that is somewhat underexposed from an optimum sunny exposure at that ISO. On some of my cameras the equivalent ISO correct exposure would be more in the 1/250 @f/8 range, though perhaps slightly hot. It's also possible the camera does some sort of image adjustment similar to what Leica does with the M series to counter edge color shifts and moderate some degree of vignetting, which will result in more noise in that area of the image. I've seen extreme Sony a7RII vignetting corrections, such as for the Voigtlander 10/5.6, that look much worse. At least here the grain structure still looks fairly fine. Check out the city horizon image directly below the B&W staircase pano image... Someone questioned him about it in the comments and he indicated it had significant shadow boosting... and it shows in the buildings. So in other words, like any other camera, the files can be pushed beyond reasonable limits and images will suffer accordingly.
Interesting that all his shots I've looked at more closely have been shot at f/8, which was also the case for the DPR strobed samples, though they also included a few at f/4 and higher ISOs...
p.36 #5 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
rscheffler wrote:
EXIF shows exposure of ISO 100 1/800 f/8. IMO that is somewhat underexposed from an optimum sunny exposure at that ISO. On some of my cameras the equivalent ISO correct exposure would be more in the 1/250 @f/8 range, though perhaps slightly hot. It's also possible the camera does some sort of image adjustment similar to what Leica does with the M series to counter edge color shifts and moderate some degree of vignetting, which will result in more noise in that area of the image. I've seen extreme Sony a7RII vignetting corrections, such as for the Voigtlander 10/5.6, that look much worse. At least here the grain structure still looks fairly fine. Check out the city horizon image directly below the B&W staircase pano image... Someone questioned him about it in the comments and he indicated it had significant shadow boosting... and it shows in the buildings. So in other words, like any other camera, the files can be pushed beyond reasonable limits and images will suffer accordingly.
Interesting that all his shots I've looked at more closely have been shot at f/8, which was also the case for the DPR strobed samples, though they also included a few at f/4 and higher ISOs......Show more →
Good points Ron. It's probably a combination of factors and I suspect the vignetting correction you mention (with the more noise prone saturated blue sky) plays a large role. Exposure wise, it's probably not far off from where I would expose the shot given the bright white building in the center so it is a high DR scene as I think Ming mentioned. Even under these conditions, I typically don't see this level of noise at base ISO but then I don't use any lenses where I require the additional hit that vignetting correction would cause. I'm surprised that would be needed with the 90mm if that's one of the culprits.
Jul 07, 2016 at 07:05 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.36 #6 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Good points Ron. It's probably a combination of factors and I suspect the vignetting correction you mention (with the more noise prone saturated blue sky) plays a large role. Exposure wise, it's probably not far off from where I would expose the shot given the bright white building in the center so it is a high DR scene as I think Ming mentioned. Even under these conditions, I typically don't see this level of noise at base ISO but then I don't use any lenses where I require the additional hit that vignetting correction would cause. I'm surprised that would be needed with the 90mm if that's one of the culprits.
We can be pretty sure the RAW converter (I think Ming used ACR) did not take the lens into account as the lens is brand new and still preproduction. So, I don't know if no lens was specified or if another lens (perhaps the 100 f/2.2, which vignettes quite a bit more) was specified. Regardless, it seems clear at this point that RAW conversion needs to be tuned for the new camera and lenses, which is hardly surprising as they won't be out for at least a month and even the AF is still a work in progress.
p.36 #7 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Not sure I would put too much in the noise levels folks. I tested this sensor in a Leaf Credo 50 back and even at ISO 3200 it was very good. It's a lot like our A7rII. Here I suspect the X1d is just not fined tuned yet in this regards. I certainly at their moment of testing would not use ACR or LR as its yet to be updated and I'm going to assume either is Phocus. Like Leaf in C1 I'm sure Hassy will get this all adjusted correctly in Phocus and with there algorithms internally with the camera. Some user demos some members are reporting good things but again a lot is still missing on the camera. I'll repeat that I did test this sensor with noise levels and all that on my review. I think that will give a better idea of what this sensor can do and when I did that test it was before actually release and still needed a firmware update. I personally would be more concerned outside the sensor as its been proven very well on all OEM cams already. Features, firmware and such at least for me is my primary focus on what this will bring to the table. I want this but I'm a little chicken shit to pre order it. I have way too much to risk as I don't have a over abundance of cash to make a mistake by buying and selling my Sony gear off to swing it. So I'm going to wait till at least my big gig coming up in two weeks and money starts coming in and see what else possibly gets announced. I'll wait till at least September as I'm sitting very well right now with my Sonys. I put a lot of time , money and effort getting my Sony kit perfect. Trying to figure out my gain but I would love to get back to MF.
To me this is a great option and glad to see some members pre-order it. I know they will be happy in the end and I think we can all learn from there reports. Right now any report has some doubts in them because of the state of development, so be careful what you read as nothing is set in stone yet.
p.36 #8 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Well, I think you are fairly risk-tolerant based on your investment in your Sony kit as a tool for income. I am waiting for your 1 year anniversary with the Sony system having used it as a working photographer. The engineer in me wants to hear how the Sony A7RII's have performed over that time. If they've been solid, I might be inclined to invest in Sony.
But I also want to hear how the Hasselblad X1D compares. I think the A7RII may be medium format enough for me.
p.36 #9 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
So far the A7rII has been a winner as I probably have at least 20 k on it and I'll shoot another 13k in two weeks on it. I rented a A6300 for that shoot just in case as well. I really have been running very solid on the A7rII so been very happy about body performance . I have had more lens issues though but really it's been Sony. I did great with Loxia and Batis glass no issues but some Sony glass I won't buy again 28 F2 , 24-70 f4 had a lot of trouble with the 35 1.4 and I had a defective GM 85 1.4 which now I have a perfect copy of . So some good and some bad. I kind of expect it though as I had Nikon issues before the Sony. I think this Hassy will be pretty solid though. Will see
p.36 #11 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
rscheffler wrote:
EXIF shows exposure of ISO 100 1/800 f/8. IMO that is somewhat underexposed from an optimum sunny exposure at that ISO. On some of my cameras the equivalent ISO correct exposure would be more in the 1/250 @f/8 range, though perhaps slightly hot. It's also possible the camera does some sort of image adjustment similar to what Leica does with the M series to counter edge color shifts and moderate some degree of vignetting, which will result in more noise in that area of the image. I've seen extreme Sony a7RII vignetting corrections, such as for the Voigtlander 10/5.6, that look much worse. At least here the grain structure still looks fairly fine. Check out the city horizon image directly below the B&W staircase pano image... Someone questioned him about it in the comments and he indicated it had significant shadow boosting... and it shows in the buildings. So in other words, like any other camera, the files can be pushed beyond reasonable limits and images will suffer accordingly.
Interesting that all his shots I've looked at more closely have been shot at f/8, which was also the case for the DPR strobed samples, though they also included a few at f/4 and higher ISOs... ...Show more →
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Good points Ron. It's probably a combination of factors and I suspect the vignetting correction you mention (with the more noise prone saturated blue sky) plays a large role. Exposure wise, it's probably not far off from where I would expose the shot given the bright white building in the center so it is a high DR scene as I think Ming mentioned. Even under these conditions, I typically don't see this level of noise at base ISO but then I don't use any lenses where I require the additional hit that vignetting correction would cause. I'm surprised that would be needed with the 90mm if that's one of the culprits. ...Show more →
Steve Spencer wrote:
We can be pretty sure the RAW converter (I think Ming used ACR) did not take the lens into account as the lens is brand new and still preproduction. So, I don't know if no lens was specified or if another lens (perhaps the 100 f/2.2, which vignettes quite a bit more) was specified. Regardless, it seems clear at this point that RAW conversion needs to be tuned for the new camera and lenses, which is hardly surprising as they won't be out for at least a month and even the AF is still a work in progress.
My point was that it could be possible in-camera correction to remove color shifts and moderate vignetting is baked into the raw files, along the lines of what Leica does. Naturally, this would be before any mangling by untuned 3rd party software.
From the DPR gallery's article, they tried both ACR and Phocus. It's perhaps telling the gallery images were all Phocus processed...
Quote from DPR: "I shot Raw and JPEG files and processed them through both Adobe Camera Raw and Hasselblad’s own Phocus software. The difference in color, brightness and general quality is quite different between the two applications, and the JPEGs shown here are from Raw files processed in Phocus. "
Jul 08, 2016 at 10:55 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.36 #12 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
rscheffler wrote:
My point was that it could be possible in-camera correction to remove color shifts and moderate vignetting is baked into the raw files, along the lines of what Leica does. Naturally, this would be before any mangling by untuned 3rd party software.
From the DPR gallery's article, they tried both ACR and Phocus. It's perhaps telling the gallery images were all Phocus processed...
Quote from DPR: "I shot Raw and JPEG files and processed them through both Adobe Camera Raw and Hasselblad’s own Phocus software. The difference in color, brightness and general quality is quite different between the two applications, and the JPEGs shown here are from Raw files processed in Phocus. "...Show more →
Good point Ron. I hope they didn't bake in the vignetting corrections, because I never liked that approach. I want different amounts of vignetting in different situations, so I want to be able to control that. I am optimistic the lenses won't need colour shift corrections given how telecentric they appear to be. I saw one shot that shows the rear element on the 45 is recessed quite a bit.
I noticed that line from the DPR review and it isn't surprising. I expect it to be quite some time if ever before Adobe gets around to creating a decent profile for this camera system. I doubt they put much effort into the H6D-50c profile as it is a low volume camera and many of the users probably opt for Phocus anyway.
p.36 #13 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Yes, the designs will be telecentric and the rear elements/exit pupil as far away as possible, but will it be as far away as equivalent SLR-style MF lens? If small size is a design priority, an option will likely be some degree of software correction. And given that the camera will be aimed partly at encouraging DSLR users to upgrade to mini-MF, photographers who have never had to deal with edge color shifts (unless coming from mirrorless with adapted lenses), it would be in Hasselblad's interests to keep the transition as smooth and hassle-free as possible.
I got the impression already with the older MFDB gear that it was often necessary to do LCC-type corrections in C1, for example... Was this indeed the case?
p.36 #14 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Just out of curiosity, I noticed that Robert White in the UK shows a price for the X1D of £5,990.00 which is US $7757.05 as of today. I would not doubt if it's an additional 10% cheaper over the next 4-5 months.
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p.36 #15 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I noticed that Robert White in the UK shows a price for the X1D of £5,990.00 which is US $7757.05 as of today. I would not doubt if it's an additional 10% cheaper over the next 4-5 months.
That could be the results of the drop in the pound after the Brexit however. If they set the price before the Brexit, then the price would be much closer to the price in US dollars and Euros. In this case, I might expect a price increase in the UK, but I think that is going to be happening to a lot of goods and is part of the reason that many economist predict a recession in the UK.
p.36 #16 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Steve Spencer wrote:
That could be the results of the drop in the pound after the Brexit however. If they set the price before the Brexit, then the price would be much closer to the price in US dollars and Euros. In this case, I might expect a price increase in the UK, but I think that is going to be happening to a lot of goods and is part of the reason that many economist predict a recession in the UK.
I would much prefer that you were right, however.
Brexit and the falling value of the pound is certainly the cause. I do wonder how quickly price increases will follow though as the UK is such an important market for so many non-domestic companies that contributing to inflation though rapid price hikes might not ultimately be in their best interest. I know price hikes occurred not so long ago in Canada but the Canadian economy is fundamentally much more sound compared to the uncertainty that Brexit brings.
p.36 #19 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Looking at these pictures, I get the same feeling as with prior sets: color is outstanding, as is the differentiation between various materials. OTOH, I am not getting a great sense of depth. Images seem to be a bit flat dimensionally. Not that there is no depth at all, but less than my A7RII with top glass. Am I alone in this (and therefore probably wrong), or not?
p.36 #20 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
philber wrote:
Looking at these pictures, I get the same feeling as with prior sets: color is outstanding, as is the differentiation between various materials. OTOH, I am not getting a great sense of depth. Images seem to be a bit flat dimensionally. Not that there is no depth at all, but less than my A7RII with top glass. Am I alone in this (and therefore probably wrong), or not?
That could be Thein's processing. It works for him but I'm not usually a fan of the desaturated red and high contrast look he goes for.
