fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1              3       end
  

Archive 2015 · Leica aspherics

  
 
Gary Clennan
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · Leica aspherics


hiepphotog wrote:
....most notably from Mr. Chambers .


Ah yes, of course.



Oct 26, 2015 at 03:43 PM
Taylor Sherman
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #2 · Leica aspherics


uhoh7 wrote:
Anecdotal, though a good source. We need to see the charts. 11-24 consistency impressive.

These are great tests they are doing. A real service.

The real message is: if you are choosing carefully, which lens to buy, then get it from somewhere it can be returned, and test it right away: if you care.


I don't think that LR's experience should be qualified as "anecdotal". The word "anecdotal" applies much more to your own (and mine, and other people's here) experience with the lenses, because we have seen/measured far fewer models and examples individually.






Oct 26, 2015 at 04:05 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · Leica aspherics


uhoh7 wrote:
Anecdotal, though a good source. We need to see the charts. 11-24 consistency impressive.

These are great tests they are doing. A real service.

The real message is: if you are choosing carefully, which lens to buy, then get it from somewhere it can be returned, and test it right away: if you care.


No numbers, scores, or charts yet because the sample size is very small, but I can tell you I do not think the 35/1.4 ASPH is not more consistent than the 35L in absolute terms, based on a sample size of 5 (this is the highest I have measured of any Leica model, with 15 total models tested on some capacity). That is to say, the consistency score at n=5 is worse, but I don't know how much it will necessarily change between 5 and 10+ samples.

More generally about manufacturing, I would like to offer some insight into this blog post...

No low to medium volume optics manufacture really works with assembly lines. This means if they make less than, say, 10,000 lenses per month they are making them in a similar fashion to how Leica is.

A 1um machining tolerance is, well, something I doubt. 1/1000" is a high precision part. This is 25x finer than that and to me seems unattainable for the price of leica lenses. It's also way better than is needed; the centering quality of most optical parts is sensitive to more like 10-100um, and the metals don't need to be that finely machined to not seize on each other. To say that the lenses would not function if they were manufactured to a lower tolerance to me sounds misinformed. Photolithographic lenses commonly aren't aligned to that tolerance, and they are corrected over a full order of magnitude better than any Leica lens ever designed.

Regarding special glass, 900403 is a glass code and is more properly written 900.403. It means the glass has a refractive index of 1.900, and an abbe number of 40.3. The presence of 12 ingredients is not an extraordinary number, nor is the use of lanthanum. Here you can see an Ohara glass chart, I use them because they have the most transparent naming scheme: http://www.oharacorp.com/images/map-catalog-02.gif

S-LAH breaks down into "S," "La," "H." S just means it's from the new series of lead free glasses, and La is lanthanum. You can order S-LAH58 from Ohara right now which has a code of 883.408. It's slightly less refractive but slightly less dispersive. Realistically you could substitute this glass in for anything designed with the 900.403 glass and get the same performance. A 60x glass is very very expensive (about the same as CaF2) but also not unheard of.

In many cases the factory receives the glass as pressings which roughly approximate the final shape of the lens. Other glasses can only be obtained in blocks which must be sliced into sheets, cut into squares, cemented together and ground to from a stack of discs.

This is ABSOLUTELY not done. Optical materials must be extremely homogeneous and free of any bubbles, impurities, or other defects. If a manufacture does their own cutting they receive slab glass. Blanks are cut from the slab with a circular diamond tool and then processed into lenses. If glass is received in sheet form it may be cut, but it will never, ever, ever be cemented to form a thicker piece.

An inventory of 100,000 grinding and/or polishing heads is also silly. A shop may keep 100, even a thousand, but not a hundred thousand. A head is good to produce elements of a single radius of curvature and a small range of diameters. Leica currently makes fewer than 100 lens models and on average they have less than 10 elements, so they would need at most 2,000 heads to produce their current lens lineup. They have not produced 50 times this number of models in recent time.

The use of CNC equipment from manufactures like Optipro, Satisloh, schneider (not the same as the lens company), and others is both good and bad. CNC is actually faster compared to traditional grind and polish techniques and faster per lens, but you can only work one piece at a time. Traditional grinding and polishing you can work maybe 6 pieces per head, so while the process takes longer and is a bit faster in volume and about 50% cheaper.

CNC is, however, better for good surfaces if you have well tuned machines. The downside is that CNC can also produce Mid Spatial Frequency errors, MSF. Here are two images of MSF: http://www.mflens.com/quality/waviness.html

http://opticalengineering.spiedigitallibrary.org/article.aspx?articleid=1892215

Look familiar? MSF is what has caused people to associate "onion-ring bokeh" with aspherical lenses. In reality, it is an interference pattern brought about by MSF. You can CNC spherical optics, but it is more or less "needed" for good aspheres.

Checking after each step is completely normal and not noteworthy in any respect. Grinding an element may take multiple days of continuous processing and that time is expensive. You do not risk waste by not performing a 10-15 second test plate check before moving on. "Proper tolerances" is a nice way to fluff it up. Essentially they are going to check the center thickness and radius of curvature. The surface quality cannot be evaluated easily until the surface becomes specular, i.e. polished. The radius is also stepped down, the roughest grind to remove tons of material might produce a R=205mm part. The medium grind would produce R=201-200.5mm, and then the fine grind would produce R=200.01-200.000mm. This has to do with padding yourself against error.

Leica applies a standard of ±0.0002% for the accuracy of the refractive index. This compares to the international standard of ±0.001% as applied by other lens manufacturers. The accuracy of the Abbe number, the measure for dispersion, is ±0.2% for Leica compared to ±0.8% internationally.

The author is way off on their tolerance of Nd. Standard tolerance is +- 0.0005 for Nd. You can find this in "How
to Save Time (and Money)
When Specifying Optical Glass" from JML Optical if you wish for a reference, though Schott, Hoya, Ohara, Nikon, Zeiss, Optimax, QED Optics, Corning, Jenoptik, and every other manufacture I can think of use the same tolerance. +- 0.0002 is indeed the high tolerance glass and is about 2-3x more expensive than the standard material.

The given value for Vd tolerance is accurate. I believe Nd +- 0.0002 glass also carries Vd +- 0.2% anyway. In any event, these tolerances are not necessary for Leica's correction level. If their lenses were diffraction limited at maximum relative aperture it would matter, but that is not the case.

A quarter wave surface quality is a standard tolerance for the RMS roughness. If they are referring to Peak-to-Valley, a quarter wave is quite good but still not exceptional. A half wave is not the standard tolerance for other manufactures, it is considered the bare minimum for imaging quality optics. Laser quality begins at 1/20 wave and ranges to 1/200th wave. Flat optics are often tenth wave quality simply due to the ease of their manufacture. In any event, quarter wave is not special. It means the surface is no more than +- 150nm from a reference plane but that is actually not exceptional for an optical surface. Angstrom level RMS roughness is exceptional. It should be noted that the wave reference for these is not the average wavelength, but is 632.8nm. This is the wavelength of a HeNe laser, as used in Zygo and other interferometers, which is how these are measured. http://zygo.com/?/met/interferometers/dynafiz/ Other manufactures exist, e.g. 4D, but Zygo is more or less de facto.

Here is a 1/40th wave part I polished myself:

http://i.imgur.com/ueQEoEw.png

This part was just prepared as a spot part for MRF, a technology used by Leica I will talk about more a bit below. The author is incorrect on the centering and thickness tolerances. Both of these are typically held to about 10um. 1um is a typical result from a CNC machine for centering, and thickness to within 5um. Nanometer precision for those two quantities is highly extraneous and it would be random luck to be that accurate.

Regarding aspheres, I could write chapters about their manufacture and will not go into too much detail, but the author is not very accurate. Precision molding is not just impossible with exotic glasses, the glass must have a low Tg, or glass transition temperature where it becomes a very very viscous liquid. Manufactures each offer about 9 low Tg glasses. They all offer almost 140 different glass varieties. Typical aspheres are still polished for small departure (<5um) or ground and polished.

The CNC generation of optics does require better tolerances, that much is accurate. When I mount a part for deterministic polishing I do not accept more than 1um of runout on my probe for the centering, so I am aligning to about a half micron. I am not sure what Leica accepts, but this is a very easy tolerance to keep for a skilled operator.

The author talks about sub-aperture grinding and polishing. As far as I am aware, there are no sub-aperture grinding machines. His description of MRF is terribly incorrect, though.

You can see Optotech machines in the photos earlier in the article. They are a good manufacture. There really are no bad eggs in the CNC optical manufacturing world. The rolling bottles with QED logos lower are MRF fluid. MRF uses a smart fluid that is about 60% iron by weight, 30% water, 8% cerium oxide or other abrasive (diamond and other abrasives are available), and 2% additives like gelatin to stabilize the fluid.

The machines are in the 7 figure price range and if you are not competitive you do not sell any machines and quickly go bankrupt. Optifab ( http://spie.org/x27531.xml ) was not long ago at all and about a billion dollars of machines, lenses, etc, were on the exhibition floor. I attached two photos from the show at the bottom of the page to give you an idea of some of the monster lenses on display.

MRF works by having a fluid with an embedded polishing agent. The fluid is passed over a wheel, underneath which is an electromagnet. The fluid is drawn tightly against the wheel and the polishing agent is pushed to the surface. The iron can be deformed but is fairly stiff. It provides an infinitely contourable tool and is capable of some of the finest surface figuring available. Angstrom level RMS roughness is easily doable by MRF but more importantly, it can generate any shape you wish, unlike ring tool or other methods. Here's a video of a machine running at Jenoptik:



The fluid must be rolled when not in the machine as it will separate if it stops. Once it separates the fluid is "dead" and not suitable in any capacity for use. The machines use a very complex pump system to keep almost the entire volume in motion at any given time. Each of those large containers visible in the photo is worth about $800. You can see they use C10+, which is the most general fluid. D11 and a couple others are also available. I'm sure they use D11 occasionally, but is almost a 24 hour job to change the fluid, so C10+ is the best to have on the machine at any given time. A key of MRF is that it requires no tooling to adjust to a new polishing demand. It can clean up mid spatial frequency error, or polish the most complex aspheres. Wonderful technology. Also almost $10M per machine. I believe Panasonic recently purchased a few machines, because they put out some PR piece about "solving the onion ring bokeh of aspheres" and MRF is the best way to do that. MRF is not going to be used at someone like Canon or Nikon I don't think due to volume of production issues. Zeiss also uses it in Oberkochen on e.g. the cinema lenses.

Five aspheres a day depends a lot on the volume of machines. To generate a 40-um departure asphere (this is departure from the best fit sphere, 40um is a "moderate" asphere) you may require 18 hours of polishing. If they have 5 machines, well... yeah they can only make 5 a day. The failure rate is almost 0 though.

The quote at the bottom though is total bullshit. Jenoptik is widely recognized in optics as someone at the forefront of aspheric and freeform lens fabrication. Zeiss is also a leader in freeform and aspheres for their photolith business. There are other manufactures as well. Aspheres and freeform are done best in the US. At the Institute of Optics we also produce some of the best surfaces both to support the activities of the laser lab, http://www.lle.rochester.edu/, and for our research in freeform optics, an area in which we are currently leading. My PI is the director of CeFo, http://centerfreeformoptics.org/ , which Jenoptik is a member of, among other companies. Freeform is basically superaspheres and much much much more difficult to fabricate and test than aspheres. I am currently in the process of working on a freeform telescope to launch into space, we have $100,000 to build it.

Here are some big, big, big lenses from Optifab: http://imgur.com/a/zu8bO The navitar guys have front elements about 8" across, and the corning advanced optics lens is almost 4x the size of a 400/2.8.

If anyone is in or will be in Rochester, NY and would like to see some of this stuff, feel free to contact me. I can show you some of the stuff in a lab I work in at the university or try to organize a tour with a manufacture for you. JML put out this video often passed around for lens manufacturing:

and is right down the road.

Regards,
Brandon



Oct 26, 2015 at 08:04 PM
jhinkey
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #4 · Leica aspherics


Jon Tainton wrote:
Ah, just to clarify, I merely posted a link to a blog with info on the manufacture of aspheric lenses and have no idea what other manufacturers can or cannot achieve.


Yeah, sorry, I should not have directed at you - it needed to be directed at the author, who apparently does not know his stuff on this subject matter. Neither do I, but I know enough to see it's a fluff piece.



Oct 26, 2015 at 08:33 PM
Sam_W
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · Leica aspherics


jhinkey wrote:
Yeah, sorry, I should not have directed at you - it needed to be directed at the author, who apparently does not know his stuff on this subject matter. Neither do I, but I know enough to see it's a fluff piece.


It's not a fluff piece; those are more or less vetted by the marketing department of the company endorsing it. I highly, highly doubt Leica would let this... thing be published and have anything to do with it. Even just copying verbatim from their marketing department would lead to considerably more accurate information.



Oct 26, 2015 at 09:43 PM
uhoh7
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · Leica aspherics


Brandon Dube wrote:
No numbers, scores, or charts yet because the sample size is very small, but I can tell you I do not think the 35/1.4 ASPH is not more consistent than the 35L in absolute terms, based on a sample size of 5 (this is the highest I have measured of any Leica model, with 15 total models tested on some capacity). That is to say, the consistency score at n=5 is worse, but I don't know how much it will necessarily change between 5 and 10+ samples.


This is the FLE? (the plain ASPH is a different lens without floating element) N=5 would not be impressive to me. It's like the Sigma Art. I would expected the consistency to be much higher.

What I also note is that N=x can describe various issues, decentering being only one. So two lenses might have the same rating 5.7 but one lens is far more prone to decentering, no?

Can we decipher/parse this on the graphs?

TY so much for your great post, Brandon

In general:

I have never been under the illusion that modern or 80s Leica glass lacks copy variation. Stories abound. I have a 28 Elmarit v3 that may be decentered. But my newer lenses, SEM 21 28cron, 90/2.5 and 135/3.4 certainly exhibit no signs of decentering, and I shoot many landscapes. They don't seem very soft either But I've heard about bad 28crons and weird 50 APOs. I'd expect them to be as good as Canon in regards variation, though, but apparently that may not be the case.

What sets your tests apart is the large samples and consistent methods (i think). I imagine some of us would loan our M copies for brief periods to Roger to increase his sample share on the critical suspects, in return to hear just how good the copy is



Oct 26, 2015 at 11:55 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · Leica aspherics


uhoh7 wrote:
This is the FLE? (the plain ASPH is a different lens without floating element) N=5 would not be impressive to me. It's like the Sigma Art. I would expected the consistency to be much higher.

What I also note is that N=x can describe various issues, decentering being only one. So two lenses might have the same rating 5.7 but one lens is far more prone to decentering, no?

Can we decipher/parse this on the graphs?



It's whatever the current 35mm f/1.4 is - this guy: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/720355-USA/Leica_11663_35mm_f_1_4_Summilux_M_Aspherical.html

By n=5, I mean there are 5 samples of the 35/1.4 tested. So at 5 samples, the 35/1.4 asph is not as consistent as the 35L or 35L II. If I had 10 samples it may be better or worse than it is now. I don't know. The score tends to stabilize by even just 4-6 copies but you never know.

The consistency score is basically a relative variation number. It takes the average of the MTF at 30lp/mm and the average of the standard deviation of the MTF at 30lp/mm. Then it calculates what 15% of the average MTF is and calculates how many standard deviations are needed to equal that. Then a small offset (<10%) is added to penalize very high resolution lenses, as their scores were unrepresentative high, and that final number is multiplied by 9 to get the consistency number.

Based on my knowledge of aberration theory, if the actual plot of variance starts to suddenly get worse going into the corners a "significant" amount, the lenses are typically tilted. If the variance is more or less constant across the field of view, the lenses are typically decentered. Of course both can exist, and that is not a golden rule. It is highly dependent on the correction of aberrations in the lens, a lens very well corrected for coma has a different behavior when it is decentered to one that is poorly corrected for coma.

In general, if the score is the same the lenses are equally variable. If lens A is higher resolution than Lens B and they have equal absolute variation, lens A's variation is harder to detect, as it tends towards "outresolving the sensor." Thus, more variance is allowed in high resolution lenses as far as the score is concerned.



Oct 27, 2015 at 12:21 AM
uhoh7
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · Leica aspherics


Brandon Dube wrote:
It's whatever the current 35mm f/1.4 is - this guy: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/720355-USA/Leica_11663_35mm_f_1_4_Summilux_M_Aspherical.html

By n=5, I mean there are 5 samples of the 35/1.4 tested. So at 5 samples, the 35/1.4 asph is not as consistent as the 35L or 35L II. If I had 10 samples it may be better or worse than it is now. I don't know. The score tends to stabilize by even just 4-6 copies but you never know.

The consistency score is basically a relative variation number. It takes the average of the MTF at 30lp/mm and the average of the standard deviation of the MTF
...Show more

Can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to explain these issues

I completely misunderstood you at first, thinking you had assigned a variance number to the FLE (yes that's what we call that one. The "asph" is the previous version, with near identical formula but no floating elements. At infinity there is basically no difference. Close up though the FLE is better. It's the current gold standard for many street shooters, like our local airfrogusmc, who is no slouch with a 35)

Any estimate as to what the variance number for the FLE might be?

Now one last silly question: watching the video you posted about making lenses, the woman cleans elements with acetone prior to cementing. When I pull apart my cheap old SLR lenses for cleaning, can I use acetone, and is it a good idea? Other suggestions?

Thank you Brandon.



Oct 27, 2015 at 12:41 AM
Jon Tainton
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · Leica aspherics


Brandon,

Thank you very much for taking the time to comprehensively comment on the blog article and for your insight into aspheric lens manufacture. From a layman's perspective your explanation was perfect, the illustration and links were much appreciated.



Oct 27, 2015 at 06:45 AM
DaveOls
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · Leica aspherics


carlitos wrote:
I'm sure that Leica uses the same machine tools to cut, grind, & polish, etc. components as everyone else does. I'm not sure how assembly lines are any worse than work stations as far as tolerances are concerned because, unfortunately, human beings introduce variability, clean or not.


If assembly lines run at a certain pace, workers have only a given amount of time to do the work before another lens comes to them.
I remember that Buick built a car, the Reatta ?, for a few years that each car was on a dolly that was moved to each worker so that they had more time to work on it. I don't think they built the car for very long. Either it wasn't popular or was too expensive to use that technique.



Oct 27, 2015 at 08:00 AM
Gary Clennan
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · Leica aspherics


Thanks for dropping by Brandon. I always learn so much from your informative posts....


Oct 27, 2015 at 09:06 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · Leica aspherics


Gary Clennan wrote:
Thanks for dropping by Brandon. I always learn so much from your informative posts....


+1. Brandon, I really appreciate you're taking your time writing informative posts and sharing your knowledge.



Oct 27, 2015 at 10:29 AM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · Leica aspherics


uhoh7 wrote:
Can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to explain these issues

I completely misunderstood you at first, thinking you had assigned a variance number to the FLE (yes that's what we call that one. The "asph" is the previous version, with near identical formula but no floating elements. At infinity there is basically no difference. Close up though the FLE is better. It's the current gold standard for many street shooters, like our local airfrogusmc, who is no slouch with a 35)

Any estimate as to what the variance number for the FLE might be?

Now one
...Show more

Acetone is completely safe for cleaning almost all glasses and I don't think there are any that are suitable for use in the visible spectrum it isn't safe for. She's cleaning the embedded surface of a doublet to make sure it is very clean to prevent the cement from bonding improperly.

Coated optics are also typically (again, typically... don't hold me responsible if it goes south) acetone safe. Some coatings are too chemically fragile and will be dissolved by it, others are safe. Every Zeiss lens I have ever seen is acetone safe, the cinema lenses absolutely assuredly so, zeiss cleans them rather aggressively with acetone. I believe most Canon, Nikon, and Sigma lenses are safe as well. The 24-70II from Canon's front element may not be... not sure. The coatings on that are very easy to damage and I am not sure if it is chemical vulnerability or softness.

I could not tell you one way or another if an old lens is acetone safe. I don't know much about older coating technologies.



Oct 27, 2015 at 10:32 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · Leica aspherics


Brandon Dube wrote:
Acetone is completely safe for cleaning almost all glasses and I don't think there are any that are suitable for use in the visible spectrum it isn't safe for. She's cleaning the embedded surface of a doublet to make sure it is very clean to prevent the cement from bonding improperly.

Coated optics are also typically (again, typically... don't hold me responsible if it goes south) acetone safe. Some coatings are too chemically fragile and will be dissolved by it, others are safe. Every Zeiss lens I have ever seen is acetone safe, the cinema lenses absolutely assuredly so,
...Show more

Ain't Purosol the cleaning fluid to get? I got it (and ROR) based on a Lensrental's cleaning article a long while back.



Oct 27, 2015 at 10:53 AM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · Leica aspherics


Isopropyl alcohol and acetone are the two cleaning solutions of choice among manufactures. Isopropyl is less aggressive but leaves a thin film if one has poor technique. High purity (>99.5%) acetone should be used to prevent scratching from impurities and accelerate evaporation, which is good for preventing residue.


Oct 27, 2015 at 11:04 AM
edwardkaraa
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · Leica aspherics


I think methanol is also excellent, but it can make people blind, which is not recommended for photographers.


Oct 27, 2015 at 11:09 AM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · Leica aspherics


Edward - better to stick with whiskey, vodka, scotch, gin, etc. to clarify artistic vision.


Oct 27, 2015 at 11:20 AM
edwardkaraa
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · Leica aspherics




rscheffler wrote:
Edward - better to stick with whiskey, vodka, scotch, gin, etc. to clarify artistic vision.


Agreed. To clarify artistic vision and blur the rest



Oct 27, 2015 at 11:28 AM
carlitos
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · Leica aspherics


Thank you, Brandon. Very informative.
It would be interesting to see the statistical results from the testing of a number of samples of various lenses - see what shape the bell curve of a generic 50/1.4 looked like - tall and narrow, lots of consistency; short and wide, lots of variability. Probably the various manufacturers would be pretty close to each other in consistency, because everyone uses about the same manufacturing techniques. At some point the manufacturers would say, "Wait, what? Our customer's are optically testing our products?"



Oct 27, 2015 at 12:24 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #20 · Leica aspherics


You can see the variance plots on the-digital-picture.com, I measured most of the data for it. I've never plotted them as histograms but it would certainly be possible to do.


Nov 03, 2015 at 11:12 AM
1              3       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1              3       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account