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Archive 2015Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
p.8 #1Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Oct 14, 2015 at 02:33 PM
p.8 #2Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
The DSLR wide angles are big and clunky because they are designed to overcome the problem of a very long back focal distance to accomodate the mirrorbox. The Loxia Distagon 21/2.8 has a much shorter back focal distance than its DSLR cousin, and yet it can be designed to be sufficiently telecentric to avoid problems with the sensor cover. It's fantastic that the Loxia 21/2.8 is only a little bigger than the ZM Biogon 21/2.8
We've already seen Sony 28/2 vs Nikon 28/1.8 (DSLR) and Batis 25/2 vs Sony/Zeiss 24/2 (DSLR) as examples of the same trend.
We've already seen Sony 28/2 vs Nikon 28/1.8 (DSLR) and Batis 25/2 vs Sony/Zeiss 24/2 (DSLR) as examples of the same trend.
Oct 14, 2015 at 03:10 PM
p.8 #3Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Seriously having the three loxia lenses and even the two Batis lenses is a very powerful kit and a very nice package to carry around. Throw in the VC15 and it's even better. Seriously my bags keep getting smaller. Gotta love that
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Seriously having the three loxia lenses and even the two Batis lenses is a very powerful kit and a very nice package to carry around. Throw in the VC15 and it's even better. Seriously my bags keep getting smaller. Gotta love that
Oct 14, 2015 at 03:19 PM
p.8 #4Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Count me in for that Loxia 15/2.8!
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Count me in for that Loxia 15/2.8!
Oct 14, 2015 at 04:24 PM
p.8 #5Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
I suspect Zeiss were dipping their toes in the water initially, without having to invest too much money and time, and adapting existing designs. Now that the A7rII has exceeded many people's expectation, the market is hot for Loxia and Batis lenses.
We may find in time that the range of Loxia lenses become smaller again!
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
I suspect Zeiss were dipping their toes in the water initially, without having to invest too much money and time, and adapting existing designs. Now that the A7rII has exceeded many people's expectation, the market is hot for Loxia and Batis lenses.
We may find in time that the range of Loxia lenses become smaller again!
Oct 14, 2015 at 06:53 PM
p.8 #6Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
It's true and it's sort of strange since the Batis aren't that small and since on the DSLR side Zeiss has gone completely insane with what they regard as a reasonable size for a lens.
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
It's true and it's sort of strange since the Batis aren't that small and since on the DSLR side Zeiss has gone completely insane with what they regard as a reasonable size for a lens.
Oct 14, 2015 at 07:13 PM
p.8 #7Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
They won't say, and there is of course lag in the system as lenses don't appear overnight, but Zeiss now know where the future lies. In a strange way, they are forcing users to decide - by enlarging the Milvis range and using Otus styling - 'use these on large cameras', the lenses seem to cry.
The Batis 25 is artificially 'filled out' dimensionally to comply with the family sizing - if you look, the filter thread is way larger than the front element. But it is actually 60 grams lighter than the Loxia 21, despite providing a full stop more lens speed.
[At 1390 grams, the new 28/1.4 Otus weighs just 50 grams less than *four* Batis 25 lenses (335 grams) put together.]
The larger barrel diameter of the Batis also indicates: 'more to come', first in the form of telephotos, I'm guessing a 100MP style 100/2 lens and a 135/2.8. Zeiss would almost certainly have modeled all this early on in the proof of concept stage of both lens families. They are very big on families and each member must 'fit in'. Later, expect a 50MP style lens in Batis form as well.
The Batis 25 is artificially 'filled out' dimensionally to comply with the family sizing - if you look, the filter thread is way larger than the front element. But it is actually 60 grams lighter than the Loxia 21, despite providing a full stop more lens speed.
[At 1390 grams, the new 28/1.4 Otus weighs just 50 grams less than *four* Batis 25 lenses (335 grams) put together.]
The larger barrel diameter of the Batis also indicates: 'more to come', first in the form of telephotos, I'm guessing a 100MP style 100/2 lens and a 135/2.8. Zeiss would almost certainly have modeled all this early on in the proof of concept stage of both lens families. They are very big on families and each member must 'fit in'. Later, expect a 50MP style lens in Batis form as well.
Oct 14, 2015 at 07:52 PM
p.8 #8Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Surely they're not really stupid enough to make a 25/2 as big around as a future 135/2 will need to be. Even the damn Master Primes cheat on the same size thing at the ends of the range, and that's a market with wayyyyyy more tolerance for oversized lenses than Sony FE customers.
Oct 14, 2015 at 08:41 PM
p.8 #9Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized. I have zero issues with the size and weight of them. Now my 35 1.4 is another story all together. The 85 is smaller and far lighter. Bottom line I'd kill for a Batis 35 F 2 or even 1.8
Oct 14, 2015 at 08:59 PM
p.8 #10Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized. I have zero issues with the size and weight of them. Now my 35 1.4 is another story all together. The 85 is smaller and far lighter. Bottom line I'd kill for a Batis 35 F 2 or even 1.8
the 25/2 really is pretty small, just a bit fat. i really wish the loxia 35/2 wasn't revision of the zm biogon. if they designed a 35/2 from the ground up for e-mount i'm sure they would have done much better. i'll take a nice loxia 35/1.4 though, i'm sure it'd be smaller than a batis 35/1.8 would.
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized. I have zero issues with the size and weight of them. Now my 35 1.4 is another story all together. The 85 is smaller and far lighter. Bottom line I'd kill for a Batis 35 F 2 or even 1.8
the 25/2 really is pretty small, just a bit fat. i really wish the loxia 35/2 wasn't revision of the zm biogon. if they designed a 35/2 from the ground up for e-mount i'm sure they would have done much better. i'll take a nice loxia 35/1.4 though, i'm sure it'd be smaller than a batis 35/1.8 would.
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:05 PM
p.8 #11Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Yep; but it doesn't debunk the claim that longer lenses with high IQ need to be as big as their DSLR versions.
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
In any case, wonderful to have a really great wide angle that will be a joy to take hiking...
The release of the Loxia 21/2.8 and its impressive MTF graph seems to debunk the myth that high IQ lenses need to be just as big as their DSLR versions. Zeiss was able to come up with a full frame mirrorless design that is light/compact without sacrificing IQ. It's a great accomplishment and I hope this trend continues.
I can't wait to see their Loxia 15/2.8!
Yep; but it doesn't debunk the claim that longer lenses with high IQ need to be as big as their DSLR versions.
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
In any case, wonderful to have a really great wide angle that will be a joy to take hiking...
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:24 PM
p.8 #12Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
philip_pj wrote:
Later, expect a 50MP style lens in Batis form as well.
I'd actually be surprised if that's not next for Batis, though I'm betting it will be closer to the Touit MP 50 than the Z* line's MP 50.
Later, expect a 50MP style lens in Batis form as well.
I'd actually be surprised if that's not next for Batis, though I'm betting it will be closer to the Touit MP 50 than the Z* line's MP 50.
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:37 PM
p.8 #13Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
sebboh wrote:
the 25/2 really is pretty small, just a bit fat. i really wish the loxia 35/2 wasn't revision of the zm biogon. if they designed a 35/2 from the ground up for e-mount i'm sure they would have done much better. i'll take a nice loxia 35/1.4 though, i'm sure it'd be smaller than a batis 35/1.8 would.
Something like the ZM Distagon 35/1.4 in a Loxia shell would be hard to pass up.
GMPhotography wrote
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized. I have zero issues with the size and weight of them. Now my 35 1.4 is another story all together. The 85 is smaller and far lighter. Bottom line I'd kill for a Batis 35 F 2 or even 1.8Something like the ZM Distagon 35/1.4 in a Loxia shell would be hard to pass up.
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:39 PM
p.8 #14Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
DavidBM wrote:
Yep; but it doesn't debunk the claim that longer lenses with high IQ need to be as big as their DSLR versions.
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
I'd say it was: the Olympus OM Zuiko 21mm f/2 is smaller and lighter than the ZE Distagon, and has similar moustache distortion. It did vignette and was more like T2.5. The sceptic in me thinks Zeiss just don't know how to do small lenses as well as that. (And maybe modern requirements for lead free glass have an effect too.)
Actually, several of the slower and even smaller OM Zuikos had excellent resolution, but they did tend to vignette a lot wide open. This is one of the cheats you can use to get size down. Another is increasing the distortion, which if it's 2% Zeiss are doing for this lens. They may legitimately argue that on a sensor like the A7RII's they have resolution and dynamic range to burn, and that this is the correct design tradeoff.
MTF doesn't tell you about those things, and we'll need to wait for detailed reviews to see what was traded off for the smaller size.
Yep; but it doesn't debunk the claim that longer lenses with high IQ need to be as big as their DSLR versions.
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
I'd say it was: the Olympus OM Zuiko 21mm f/2 is smaller and lighter than the ZE Distagon, and has similar moustache distortion. It did vignette and was more like T2.5. The sceptic in me thinks Zeiss just don't know how to do small lenses as well as that. (And maybe modern requirements for lead free glass have an effect too.)
Actually, several of the slower and even smaller OM Zuikos had excellent resolution, but they did tend to vignette a lot wide open. This is one of the cheats you can use to get size down. Another is increasing the distortion, which if it's 2% Zeiss are doing for this lens. They may legitimately argue that on a sensor like the A7RII's they have resolution and dynamic range to burn, and that this is the correct design tradeoff.
MTF doesn't tell you about those things, and we'll need to wait for detailed reviews to see what was traded off for the smaller size.
Oct 15, 2015 at 04:50 AM
p.8 #15Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized.
Yup. People complained about the shiny stainless steel hood bayonets on the of the ZF being a dumb non-functional cosmetic decision, but that's nothing compared to the bulging hoods of the Otus/Milvus/Batis .
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized.
Yup. People complained about the shiny stainless steel hood bayonets on the of the ZF being a dumb non-functional cosmetic decision, but that's nothing compared to the bulging hoods of the Otus/Milvus/Batis .
Oct 15, 2015 at 06:53 AM
p.8 #16Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
DavidBM wrote:
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
It absolutely was large for its FL and speed. And when it first came out, that was no big surprise. It was pretty revolutionary in quality for such a wide FL. But now, technology has evolved. As you say, the 20/1.8 is telling. That's why I'm kind of surprised Zeiss straight rehoused it for the Milvus. Its performance is still competitive enough that it didn't need replacement the way the 50 and 85 Planars absolutely did, but I have to wonder if with modern technology a similarly high quality 21/2.8 could've been made smaller (or a similarly large one could've been made better).
This new 21 Loxia supports that theory, in my opinion. Few other high performance FE lenses have actually been smaller than modern DSLR counterparts, suggesting that the theory of short flange depth allowing for smaller lens designs may have been hype. But the Loxia is quite a bit smaller than the ZF, even before you take the DSLR adapter into account. If flange depth isn't the reason, my theory might be.
And, actually, it's not clear it does it even here: it's true this lovely lens (which if I can persuade myself I can afford I will buy) is a lot smaller than the classic 21 distagon; but it's not much smaller Nikon 20 1.8; and that's a stop faster. So it may be that the fairly old distagon design was big even by contemporary SLR standards for its FL and speed.
It absolutely was large for its FL and speed. And when it first came out, that was no big surprise. It was pretty revolutionary in quality for such a wide FL. But now, technology has evolved. As you say, the 20/1.8 is telling. That's why I'm kind of surprised Zeiss straight rehoused it for the Milvus. Its performance is still competitive enough that it didn't need replacement the way the 50 and 85 Planars absolutely did, but I have to wonder if with modern technology a similarly high quality 21/2.8 could've been made smaller (or a similarly large one could've been made better).
This new 21 Loxia supports that theory, in my opinion. Few other high performance FE lenses have actually been smaller than modern DSLR counterparts, suggesting that the theory of short flange depth allowing for smaller lens designs may have been hype. But the Loxia is quite a bit smaller than the ZF, even before you take the DSLR adapter into account. If flange depth isn't the reason, my theory might be.
Oct 15, 2015 at 07:03 AM
p.8 #17Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Lee Saxon wrote:
Yup. People complained about the shiny stainless steel hood bayonets on the of the ZF being a dumb non-functional cosmetic decision, but that's nothing compared to the bulging hoods of the Otus/Milvus/Batis .
To me its just stupid the size of these things. With the metal hoods I use they become a lot smaller. Im going to do a shot to show this. Just for fun.
GMPhotography wrote
You take that damn hood off these Batis lenses are a lot smaller than they look. The hoods are way too oversized.To me its just stupid the size of these things. With the metal hoods I use they become a lot smaller. Im going to do a shot to show this. Just for fun.
Oct 15, 2015 at 07:07 AM
p.8 #18Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
The short flange design certainly allows for smaller (i.e. shorter) WA lenses, but Sony's implementation of the sensor filter stack negates most of this advantage over SLR glass. If Sony had opted for a very thin IR filter and no AA filter (or substitute clear glass) Zeiss would have been able to design 'quasi-pancakes' for the E mount ( had they wished to do so )..As things are now, we'll see, at most, E mount wide angles sized midway between the monster SLR lenses and the tiny classic RF wides. When I say tiny, I mean Leica Elmarit style, because those Zeiss ZM Biogons are quite long compared to most RF wides designed for film cameras..
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:20 AM
p.8 #19Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Just talked to Andrew at Newtonville camera in Ma.
I'm first on there list for the Loxia 21 so you may want to join me. I'm not going broke alone.
I'm taking you all down with me. ROTFLMAO
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:58 AM
p.8 #20Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
melcat wrote:
Actually, several of the slower and even smaller OM Zuikos had excellent resolution, but they did tend to vignette a lot wide open. This is one of the cheats you can use to get size down. Another is increasing the distortion, which if it's 2% Zeiss are doing for this lens. They may legitimately argue that on a sensor like the A7RII's they have resolution and dynamic range to burn, and that this is the correct design tradeoff.
I used OM 3.5/21, 3.5/28, 1.8/50 and 3.5/135 on OM2 for many years, and they were all VERY compact indeed and with excellent resolution and good build quality (with some vignetting wide open, but nothing dramatic). Disappointing that 30-40 years later it seems difficult to come up with high quality lenses for DSLR or mirrorless with similar size. Just like it is disappointing that DSLRs with a viewfinder with the same quality as OM-2 are often a lot bigger ...
Like some others I'm also a bit surprised that these fully manual lenses are hardly smaller/lighter than the slower Canon WA primes (2.8/24IS, 2.8/28IS, 20/35IS) or the new Nikon f/1.8 primes that have full auto and other extras like IS or brighter aperture.
Actually, several of the slower and even smaller OM Zuikos had excellent resolution, but they did tend to vignette a lot wide open. This is one of the cheats you can use to get size down. Another is increasing the distortion, which if it's 2% Zeiss are doing for this lens. They may legitimately argue that on a sensor like the A7RII's they have resolution and dynamic range to burn, and that this is the correct design tradeoff.
I used OM 3.5/21, 3.5/28, 1.8/50 and 3.5/135 on OM2 for many years, and they were all VERY compact indeed and with excellent resolution and good build quality (with some vignetting wide open, but nothing dramatic). Disappointing that 30-40 years later it seems difficult to come up with high quality lenses for DSLR or mirrorless with similar size. Just like it is disappointing that DSLRs with a viewfinder with the same quality as OM-2 are often a lot bigger ...
Like some others I'm also a bit surprised that these fully manual lenses are hardly smaller/lighter than the slower Canon WA primes (2.8/24IS, 2.8/28IS, 20/35IS) or the new Nikon f/1.8 primes that have full auto and other extras like IS or brighter aperture.
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:04 AM