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Archive 2015Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
p.6 #1Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
wayne seltzer wrote:
For the zone b dip I was comparing with Milvus 21,
Which is steadier across the frame. The Tang's really falloff in corners and I think imply astigmatism, right?
Yes, the distortion is like the Z* 25/2 which is not bad.
Much better than previous Loxia!
I thought if the distortion curve goes from going negative to curving in a positive direction, that usually implies mustache distortion.
The 40 cycles/mm lines have a large zone B dip compared to the old Z* 21/2.8.
This one has an aspheric element that the old one didn't and the old one has a floating elements design. No mention if the new Loxia 21 has that. Really surprised by the small filter size, wondering how much vignetting it will have.The distortion curve has to rise significantly again for the distortion to be recognized as moustache. The curve for the Loxia 21 is almost identical to the ZF/ZE 25, and that is not referred to as especially moustache.
Regarding the zone B dip, I would hardly call it a weakness, it is just about 2% or so below the Otus 55 MTF at f/4.
Yes, there are lenses with even higher MTF curves in Zone B than Otus
The older distagons have a sharpn knee and a little falloff in the extreme corners, something the Loxia does not.
The sag/tan separation in the corner is also similar to Otus MTF, but otoh the Loxia has no separation until that point. It is possible to find areas where other lenses are more perfect, but that is different from saying one lens has a weakness.
For the zone b dip I was comparing with Milvus 21,
Which is steadier across the frame. The Tang's really falloff in corners and I think imply astigmatism, right?
Yes, the distortion is like the Z* 25/2 which is not bad.
Much better than previous Loxia!
alundeb wrote
wayne seltzer wrote
alundeb wrote
No signs of weakness in the MTF's and the distortion is now barrel, not moustache.The 40 cycles/mm lines have a large zone B dip compared to the old Z* 21/2.8.
This one has an aspheric element that the old one didn't and the old one has a floating elements design. No mention if the new Loxia 21 has that. Really surprised by the small filter size, wondering how much vignetting it will have.
Regarding the zone B dip, I would hardly call it a weakness, it is just about 2% or so below the Otus 55 MTF at f/4.
Yes, there are lenses with even higher MTF curves in Zone B than Otus
The older distagons have a sharpn knee and a little falloff in the extreme corners, something the Loxia does not.
The sag/tan separation in the corner is also similar to Otus MTF, but otoh the Loxia has no separation until that point. It is possible to find areas where other lenses are more perfect, but that is different from saying one lens has a weakness.
Oct 12, 2015 at 11:51 PM
p.6 #2Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I am really excited about the 21/2.8. The two upcoming lenses will probably be 28/2 and 85/2.
However, although it is very unlikely I would like to see a 35-70/3 one-touch zoom.
However, although it is very unlikely I would like to see a 35-70/3 one-touch zoom.
Oct 13, 2015 at 02:25 AM
p.6 #3Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
How about an e-mount version of the APO Sonnar 200 2 
?
On a more serious note, I have no clue, but I'd be surprised, if they released anything longer than 135mm. May be some folks who are more knowledgable in all things Zeiss can chime in here, but when was the last time they release a lens longer than that for FF? It's probably been been a while. Sony knows that there is demand for longer lenses, so they will eventually come up with something (70-300G or 300 4 or whatever). Zeiss no doubt knows that and hence probably has little incentive to get into telephoto territory. Likewise, a Loxia 85 2 based on the ZM Sonnar makes little sense, since they already have the Batis 85 1.8, right? I would think f1.8 vs f2 is slightly too close to comfort. With the three 35mm's, the differences are slightly more obvious (f1.4, f2 and f2.8).
Also, isn't 75mm a classic Leica/Voigtlander FL? With Zeiss, it's usually 50mm or 85mm, isn't it?
My guess is that Zeiss will take a close look at 1. Sony's lens roadmap and 2. what lenses performed well for them across their ZM/ZF/ZE lines: I wouldn't be surprised, if they added the 15 2.8 or the MP 50/100 to the Loxia line (even though it's probably hard, if not impossible to reduce the size/weight of the MP, which would make it a less than ideal choice), and may be a 50 1.4 and 135mm Sonnar to the Batis line (assuming that Sony will update only the a-mount 135 1.8 and not release a 135mm fast prime under the Sony Zeiss of G label for e-mount).
?On a more serious note, I have no clue, but I'd be surprised, if they released anything longer than 135mm. May be some folks who are more knowledgable in all things Zeiss can chime in here, but when was the last time they release a lens longer than that for FF? It's probably been been a while. Sony knows that there is demand for longer lenses, so they will eventually come up with something (70-300G or 300 4 or whatever). Zeiss no doubt knows that and hence probably has little incentive to get into telephoto territory. Likewise, a Loxia 85 2 based on the ZM Sonnar makes little sense, since they already have the Batis 85 1.8, right? I would think f1.8 vs f2 is slightly too close to comfort. With the three 35mm's, the differences are slightly more obvious (f1.4, f2 and f2.8).
Also, isn't 75mm a classic Leica/Voigtlander FL? With Zeiss, it's usually 50mm or 85mm, isn't it?
My guess is that Zeiss will take a close look at 1. Sony's lens roadmap and 2. what lenses performed well for them across their ZM/ZF/ZE lines: I wouldn't be surprised, if they added the 15 2.8 or the MP 50/100 to the Loxia line (even though it's probably hard, if not impossible to reduce the size/weight of the MP, which would make it a less than ideal choice), and may be a 50 1.4 and 135mm Sonnar to the Batis line (assuming that Sony will update only the a-mount 135 1.8 and not release a 135mm fast prime under the Sony Zeiss of G label for e-mount).
Oct 13, 2015 at 03:05 AM
p.6 #4Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
DavidBM wrote:
I really have no idea what the next two Loxias will be; what I'd like is a 40mm f2; but that's not a Zeiss tradition if that makes a difference - maybe it does to marketing. More hope from CV.
A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.
I think the trouble with a 40mm f/2 is that they already have a 35mm f/2 and a 50mm f/2, so adding a 40mm f/2 seems like a lot of fairly similar lenses bunched together.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the long run:
18mm f/4 - the ZM 18 f/4 is 65mm in diameter and has a 58mm filter thread, but they need to redesign it anyway and it is close to the Loxia diameter and filter threat and if they make it a bit longer (probably a good idea to work well with the Sony sensor and cover glass) then I am thinking they might be able to make it skinnier. It would also fit well between the CV 15mm f/4.5 and the Loxia 21mm f/2.8. My guess is this won't be made right away both because it may be a bit hard to squeeze it in the Loxia package and I am thinking they will make a Batis 18 f/2.8 or 3.5.
25mm f/2.8 - like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 this would have to be redesigned and would probably be a distagon. Since they could make the 21mm f/2.8 into a distagon and have it fit in the package it seems that making a 25mm f/2.8 won't be a problem. I don't expect this lens right away because of the Batis 25 f/2, but I do expect one someday if the line sells well.
28mm f/2.8 - also like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 I think this lens will be redesigned as a distagon. It shouldn't be hard and I expect it to be excellent. I will be surprised if this isn't the next Loxia.
35mm f/1.4 - this could be a remake of the ZM 35 f/1.4 that came out last year. I don't think it would need a significant redesign but it would need to be tweaked to work better with the sensor and cover glass and it should have a shorter MFD. The filter thread (49mm) and the diameter of the focus ring (60.6mm) of the ZM version are even slightly smaller than they are on the first three Loxia (filter 52mm and diameter 62.1mm), so I think it would fit as a Loxia, but it would be much more expensive. This is the lens that I most hope they build, but I am not sure if they will.
50mm f/1.4 - I think they would need to have a totally new design to make this lens work. I doubt they would tweak the ZM 50 f/1.5 Sonnar, but maybe they will and this lens certainly could work as a Loxia--but if they were going to do that I think they would have already. Would they make it Planar, a Sonnar, or a Distagon. My take is that it may well be a Sonnar and a more modern design. The Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 shows what a small Sonnar design can be, but this would be harder to build and keep small if they want to make it f/1.4. I think a Planar would be hard to keep small and have a modern rendering and I think a distagon would be too big. I probably won't be interesting in this lens unless it has excellent bokeh, which is a lot to hope for. If not I would be satisfied with the Loxia 50 f/2 Planar.
60mm f/2.8 -- I think a lens with this specs makes a lot more sense than a 50 f/2 macro both for its potential small size (see the Zeiss C/Y 60 f/2.8 C which is a quite small lens) and it differentiation from the 50 f/2 Planar. I don't think it would be hard to make this with a 52mm filter thread (the C/Y had a 55mm thread, but I think a 52mm would be possible) and I think a 62.1mm diameter is possible too (the C/Y had a 65mm diameter). So they would have to make it a bit skinnier than the C/Y, but just a bit,. I think this could well be the fifth Loxia. Having a macro would make a lot of sense.
85mm (or maybe 90mm) f//2.8 - the C/Y 85mm f/2.8 and the Contax G 90mm f/2.8 were very similar and excellent lenses but pretty small. The C/Y had a 55mm filter thread and a 61mm diameter. The Contax G had a 46mm filter thread and a 56mm diameter. They appear to be the same optical formula. It should not be that hard to make this lens into a Loxia. Perhaps modernize it with some anomalous partial dispersion glass and it could be an excellent lens. I know many people would like am 85mm f/2 Sonnar, but I have my doubts they could make it small enough to fit the Loxia form factor. The ZM lens had a 58mm filter thread and although the data sheet doesn't specify its diameter I would estimate it at 65 to 70mm. Since this was a rangefinder lens they also probably made it about as skinny as they could. It is also an expensive lens. I suspect we won't ever see one, but I could be wrong. I think an 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar could easily be the fifth Loxia.
So here are the lenses I think they will very likely make in the Loxia line:
28mm f/2.8 Distagon -- my guess for the next lens
85mm f/2.8 Sonnar -- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
25mm f/2.8 Distagon -- not the 4th or 5th, but I would be surprised if they don't build it.
Lenses I think it is more likely they will build than not as Loxia:
60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar-- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
18mm f/4 Distagon -- it might be hard to build but I think they can and will do it.
If theses lenses were built then the Loxia line would look like:
18mm f/4 Distagon, 21mm f/2.8 Distagon, 25mm f/2.8 Distagon, 28mm f/4 Distagon, 35mm f/2 Biogon, 50mm f/2 Planar, 60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar, 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar.
A very nice set of eight lenses.
I think they might add--perhaps as a set of fast primes with a different diameter and filter thread:
35mm f/1.4 Distagon
50mm f/1.4 Sonnar
85mm f/2 Sonnar
I think that in time the Loxia lenses will make a really nice set of MF lenses for Sony E mount and together with the wide VC lenses announced this week a very nice set of native E mount lenses for video on the Sony A7 cameras.
I really have no idea what the next two Loxias will be; what I'd like is a 40mm f2; but that's not a Zeiss tradition if that makes a difference - maybe it does to marketing. More hope from CV.
A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.
I think the trouble with a 40mm f/2 is that they already have a 35mm f/2 and a 50mm f/2, so adding a 40mm f/2 seems like a lot of fairly similar lenses bunched together.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the long run:
18mm f/4 - the ZM 18 f/4 is 65mm in diameter and has a 58mm filter thread, but they need to redesign it anyway and it is close to the Loxia diameter and filter threat and if they make it a bit longer (probably a good idea to work well with the Sony sensor and cover glass) then I am thinking they might be able to make it skinnier. It would also fit well between the CV 15mm f/4.5 and the Loxia 21mm f/2.8. My guess is this won't be made right away both because it may be a bit hard to squeeze it in the Loxia package and I am thinking they will make a Batis 18 f/2.8 or 3.5.
25mm f/2.8 - like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 this would have to be redesigned and would probably be a distagon. Since they could make the 21mm f/2.8 into a distagon and have it fit in the package it seems that making a 25mm f/2.8 won't be a problem. I don't expect this lens right away because of the Batis 25 f/2, but I do expect one someday if the line sells well.
28mm f/2.8 - also like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 I think this lens will be redesigned as a distagon. It shouldn't be hard and I expect it to be excellent. I will be surprised if this isn't the next Loxia.
35mm f/1.4 - this could be a remake of the ZM 35 f/1.4 that came out last year. I don't think it would need a significant redesign but it would need to be tweaked to work better with the sensor and cover glass and it should have a shorter MFD. The filter thread (49mm) and the diameter of the focus ring (60.6mm) of the ZM version are even slightly smaller than they are on the first three Loxia (filter 52mm and diameter 62.1mm), so I think it would fit as a Loxia, but it would be much more expensive. This is the lens that I most hope they build, but I am not sure if they will.
50mm f/1.4 - I think they would need to have a totally new design to make this lens work. I doubt they would tweak the ZM 50 f/1.5 Sonnar, but maybe they will and this lens certainly could work as a Loxia--but if they were going to do that I think they would have already. Would they make it Planar, a Sonnar, or a Distagon. My take is that it may well be a Sonnar and a more modern design. The Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 shows what a small Sonnar design can be, but this would be harder to build and keep small if they want to make it f/1.4. I think a Planar would be hard to keep small and have a modern rendering and I think a distagon would be too big. I probably won't be interesting in this lens unless it has excellent bokeh, which is a lot to hope for. If not I would be satisfied with the Loxia 50 f/2 Planar.
60mm f/2.8 -- I think a lens with this specs makes a lot more sense than a 50 f/2 macro both for its potential small size (see the Zeiss C/Y 60 f/2.8 C which is a quite small lens) and it differentiation from the 50 f/2 Planar. I don't think it would be hard to make this with a 52mm filter thread (the C/Y had a 55mm thread, but I think a 52mm would be possible) and I think a 62.1mm diameter is possible too (the C/Y had a 65mm diameter). So they would have to make it a bit skinnier than the C/Y, but just a bit,. I think this could well be the fifth Loxia. Having a macro would make a lot of sense.
85mm (or maybe 90mm) f//2.8 - the C/Y 85mm f/2.8 and the Contax G 90mm f/2.8 were very similar and excellent lenses but pretty small. The C/Y had a 55mm filter thread and a 61mm diameter. The Contax G had a 46mm filter thread and a 56mm diameter. They appear to be the same optical formula. It should not be that hard to make this lens into a Loxia. Perhaps modernize it with some anomalous partial dispersion glass and it could be an excellent lens. I know many people would like am 85mm f/2 Sonnar, but I have my doubts they could make it small enough to fit the Loxia form factor. The ZM lens had a 58mm filter thread and although the data sheet doesn't specify its diameter I would estimate it at 65 to 70mm. Since this was a rangefinder lens they also probably made it about as skinny as they could. It is also an expensive lens. I suspect we won't ever see one, but I could be wrong. I think an 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar could easily be the fifth Loxia.
So here are the lenses I think they will very likely make in the Loxia line:
28mm f/2.8 Distagon -- my guess for the next lens
85mm f/2.8 Sonnar -- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
25mm f/2.8 Distagon -- not the 4th or 5th, but I would be surprised if they don't build it.
Lenses I think it is more likely they will build than not as Loxia:
60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar-- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
18mm f/4 Distagon -- it might be hard to build but I think they can and will do it.
If theses lenses were built then the Loxia line would look like:
18mm f/4 Distagon, 21mm f/2.8 Distagon, 25mm f/2.8 Distagon, 28mm f/4 Distagon, 35mm f/2 Biogon, 50mm f/2 Planar, 60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar, 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar.
A very nice set of eight lenses.
I think they might add--perhaps as a set of fast primes with a different diameter and filter thread:
35mm f/1.4 Distagon
50mm f/1.4 Sonnar
85mm f/2 Sonnar
I think that in time the Loxia lenses will make a really nice set of MF lenses for Sony E mount and together with the wide VC lenses announced this week a very nice set of native E mount lenses for video on the Sony A7 cameras.
Oct 13, 2015 at 07:26 AM
p.6 #5Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
First review with wide-open samples:
http://passportsandlenses.com/zeiss-loxia-212-8-review
What a terrible writer. I didn't even attempt the second paragraph. Great samples though.
First review with wide-open samples:
http://passportsandlenses.com/zeiss-loxia-212-8-review
What a terrible writer. I didn't even attempt the second paragraph. Great samples though.
Oct 13, 2015 at 07:31 AM
p.6 #6Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
LightShow wrote:
Loxia ApoTele-Tessar 200mm f4.
I'd be all over it; a genuinely good compact travel tele.
Every now and again I stupidly almost buy an Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 200 f4. It's compact, it has beautiful bokeh and fantastic sloca correction. it's sharp but not modern lens super sharp. And it's so expensive a new ApoTeleTessar, if they made one, would likely not go for more...Do you mean the 180 APO Lanthar?
I don't know about the 100/2 Marko, too close to Sony's 90 Macro? maybe a 180 Marko? a reissue of the CV 125 Macro?
I could see a 135 APO, What would make many happy is a 100-400/4 APO @ under $2K.
Whatever happens, I think the demand for FL's under 100mm will be much less in the coming year, I expect a huge demand for >100mm lenses, something that Canikon owners will need to jump ship.
Oops yes I do mean the 180 APO Lanthar (I was getting to carried away with my 200mm Apo Tele Tessar fantasies and so typed 200)
I think 100-400 f4 APO for under 2K is a bit of a pipe dream (but no more so than my high quality but slow 200 dream)
Actually, though, I think most people would want an AF 100-400 given the most common use cases.
DavidBM wrote
bjornthun wrote
What about a Zeiss Loxia Tele Superachromat 200mm f/4?I'd be all over it; a genuinely good compact travel tele.
Every now and again I stupidly almost buy an Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 200 f4. It's compact, it has beautiful bokeh and fantastic sloca correction. it's sharp but not modern lens super sharp. And it's so expensive a new ApoTeleTessar, if they made one, would likely not go for more...
I don't know about the 100/2 Marko, too close to Sony's 90 Macro? maybe a 180 Marko? a reissue of the CV 125 Macro?
I could see a 135 APO, What would make many happy is a 100-400/4 APO @ under $2K.
Whatever happens, I think the demand for FL's under 100mm will be much less in the coming year, I expect a huge demand for >100mm lenses, something that Canikon owners will need to jump ship.
Oops yes I do mean the 180 APO Lanthar (I was getting to carried away with my 200mm Apo Tele Tessar fantasies and so typed 200)
I think 100-400 f4 APO for under 2K is a bit of a pipe dream (but no more so than my high quality but slow 200 dream)
Actually, though, I think most people would want an AF 100-400 given the most common use cases.
Oct 13, 2015 at 07:34 AM
p.6 #7Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think with the Loxia lenses you have to keep in mind they have a video focus. If you look at Zeiss' Ultra and Master Cine lenses you will see that there is a focus on wide angle lenses, but very few telephoto lenses. For example the Ultra series has an 8mm, 10mm, 12mm 14mm, 16mm, and 20mm, but only a 135mm and 180mm longer than 100mm. The Master series has a 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 18mm, wider than 21mm and only a 135mm and 150mm longer than 100mm...After all, video does often crave wider lenses...
I'm going to disagree with this point. I don't think motion tends to shoot wider. In fact, at least in narrative work, I think it tends to shoot longer (a lot of singles and doubles). I think the reason you see wider lenses for motion is mostly the "crop factor." The UP and MP lines were designed for S35 format. To guess at what equivalents we'll see in a FF35 format motion line such as the Loxia you've got to multiply by around 1.5.
(There's also the fact that given the quality expectations and maximum aperture of the MP's, longer lenses could be...impractical).
I think with the Loxia lenses you have to keep in mind they have a video focus. If you look at Zeiss' Ultra and Master Cine lenses you will see that there is a focus on wide angle lenses, but very few telephoto lenses. For example the Ultra series has an 8mm, 10mm, 12mm 14mm, 16mm, and 20mm, but only a 135mm and 180mm longer than 100mm. The Master series has a 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 18mm, wider than 21mm and only a 135mm and 150mm longer than 100mm...After all, video does often crave wider lenses...
I'm going to disagree with this point. I don't think motion tends to shoot wider. In fact, at least in narrative work, I think it tends to shoot longer (a lot of singles and doubles). I think the reason you see wider lenses for motion is mostly the "crop factor." The UP and MP lines were designed for S35 format. To guess at what equivalents we'll see in a FF35 format motion line such as the Loxia you've got to multiply by around 1.5.
(There's also the fact that given the quality expectations and maximum aperture of the MP's, longer lenses could be...impractical).
Oct 13, 2015 at 07:42 AM
p.6 #8Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Steve Spencer wrote:
A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.I think the trouble with a 40mm f/2 is that they already have a 35mm f/2 and a 50mm f/2, so adding a 40mm f/2 seems like a lot of fairly similar lenses bunched together.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the...Show more →
I hope Zeiss doesn't limit itself with the silly uniform diameter deal. The Loxia line is not true cine anyway (too much focus breathing to be taken seriously). Even serious Cine line-up like the Cook 5/i set, specialized glass does break away from the mold.
It's definitely nice to have a uniform diameter/filter thread, but not at the cost of limiting the possibility. Anything between 21 and 75 would be able to fit in the current standard, and this is where most people would shoot with. I also think they should make it fast enough (at least f/2) for anything longer than 21. Again, if they want to make a hybrid cine, more light gathering is always a better option.
DavidBM wrote
I really have no idea what the next two Loxias will be; what I'd like is a 40mm f2; but that's not a Zeiss tradition if that makes a difference - maybe it does to marketing. More hope from CV.A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the...Show more →
I hope Zeiss doesn't limit itself with the silly uniform diameter deal. The Loxia line is not true cine anyway (too much focus breathing to be taken seriously). Even serious Cine line-up like the Cook 5/i set, specialized glass does break away from the mold.
It's definitely nice to have a uniform diameter/filter thread, but not at the cost of limiting the possibility. Anything between 21 and 75 would be able to fit in the current standard, and this is where most people would shoot with. I also think they should make it fast enough (at least f/2) for anything longer than 21. Again, if they want to make a hybrid cine, more light gathering is always a better option.
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:00 AM
p.6 #9Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
My bet Loxia line will be , 21,28,35,50,75,135 and maybe a 15
Batis line 18,25,35,50,85,135 and 200
But Sony will probably be out with a 135 and 200 first a new 24-70, 85 1.4 and a 70-200 2.8
Batis line 18,25,35,50,85,135 and 200
But Sony will probably be out with a 135 and 200 first a new 24-70, 85 1.4 and a 70-200 2.8
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:13 AM
p.6 #10Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Lee Saxon wrote:
I'm going to disagree with this point. I don't think motion tends to shoot wider. In fact, at least in narrative work, I think it tends to shoot longer (a lot of singles and doubles). I think the reason you see wider lenses for motion is mostly the "crop factor." The UP and MP lines were designed for S35 format. To guess at what equivalents we'll see in a FF35 format motion line such as the Loxia you've got to multiply by around 1.5.
(There's also the fact that given the quality expectations and maximum aperture of the MP's, longer...Show more →
I totally agree Lee, but keep in mind the A7r II shoots in Super 35 for 4K, so it could very much benefit from wider lenses due to the crop factor as well. I think Super 35 comes out to a 1.4 crop factor, doesn't it?
Steve Spencer wrote
I think with the Loxia lenses you have to keep in mind they have a video focus. If you look at Zeiss' Ultra and Master Cine lenses you will see that there is a focus on wide angle lenses, but very few telephoto lenses. For example the Ultra series has an 8mm, 10mm, 12mm 14mm, 16mm, and 20mm, but only a 135mm and 180mm longer than 100mm. The Master series has a 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 18mm, wider than 21mm and only a 135mm and 150mm longer than 100mm...After all, video does often crave wider lenses...(There's also the fact that given the quality expectations and maximum aperture of the MP's, longer...Show more →
I totally agree Lee, but keep in mind the A7r II shoots in Super 35 for 4K, so it could very much benefit from wider lenses due to the crop factor as well. I think Super 35 comes out to a 1.4 crop factor, doesn't it?
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:24 AM
p.6 #11Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
Okay I put my name on a pre- order list. Will see what December brings if I get it.
As one of the pioneers of using CY21 Distagon on a Canon body you owe it to yourself to have a Zeiss 21 again
Okay I put my name on a pre- order list. Will see what December brings if I get it.
As one of the pioneers of using CY21 Distagon on a Canon body you owe it to yourself to have a Zeiss 21 again
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:24 AM
p.6 #12Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I think I might end up with this one too, I have Canon 16-35 F4 on metabones which is a very good landscape combo but it's bulky and the metabones is glitchy 
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:26 AM
p.6 #13Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
hiepphotog wrote:
A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.I think the trouble with a 40mm f/2 is that they already have a 35mm f/2 and a 50mm f/2, so adding a 40mm f/2 seems like a lot of fairly similar lenses bunched together.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the long run:
18mm f/4 - the ZM 18 f/4 is 65mm in diameter and has a 58mm filter thread, but they need to redesign it anyway and it is close to the Loxia diameter and filter threat and if they make it a bit longer (probably a good idea to work well with the Sony sensor and cover glass) then I am thinking they might be able to make it skinnier. It would also fit well between the CV 15mm f/4.5 and the Loxia 21mm f/2.8. My guess is this won't be made right away both because it may be a bit hard to squeeze it in the Loxia package and I am thinking they will make a Batis 18 f/2.8 or 3.5.
25mm f/2.8 - like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 this would have to be redesigned and would probably be a distagon. Since they could make the 21mm f/2.8 into a distagon and have it fit in the package it seems that making a 25mm f/2.8 won't be a problem. I don't expect this lens right away because of the Batis 25 f/2, but I do expect one someday if the line sells well.
28mm f/2.8 - also like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 I think this lens will be redesigned as a distagon. It shouldn't be hard and I expect it to be excellent. I will be surprised if this isn't the next Loxia.
35mm f/1.4 - this could be a remake of the ZM 35 f/1.4 that came out last year. I don't think it would need a significant redesign but it would need to be tweaked to work better with the sensor and cover glass and it should have a shorter MFD. The filter thread (49mm) and the diameter of the focus ring (60.6mm) of the ZM version are even slightly smaller than they are on the first three Loxia (filter 52mm and diameter 62.1mm), so I think it would fit as a Loxia, but it would be much more expensive. This is the lens that I most hope they build, but I am not sure if they will.
50mm f/1.4 - I think they would need to have a totally new design to make this lens work. I doubt they would tweak the ZM 50 f/1.5 Sonnar, but maybe they will and this lens certainly could work as a Loxia--but if they were going to do that I think they would have already. Would they make it Planar, a Sonnar, or a Distagon. My take is that it may well be a Sonnar and a more modern design. The Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 shows what a small Sonnar design can be, but this would be harder to build and keep small if they want to make it f/1.4. I think a Planar would be hard to keep small and have a modern rendering and I think a distagon would be too big. I probably won't be interesting in this lens unless it has excellent bokeh, which is a lot to hope for. If not I would be satisfied with the Loxia 50 f/2 Planar.
60mm f/2.8 -- I think a lens with this specs makes a lot more sense than a 50 f/2 macro both for its potential small size (see the Zeiss C/Y 60 f/2.8 C which is a quite small lens) and it differentiation from the 50 f/2 Planar. I don't think it would be hard to make this with a 52mm filter thread (the C/Y had a 55mm thread, but I think a 52mm would be possible) and I think a 62.1mm diameter is possible too (the C/Y had a 65mm diameter). So they would have to make it a bit skinnier than the C/Y, but just a bit,. I think this could well be the fifth Loxia. Having a macro would make a lot of sense.
85mm (or maybe 90mm) f//2.8 - the C/Y 85mm f/2.8 and the Contax G 90mm f/2.8 were very similar and excellent lenses but pretty small. The C/Y had a 55mm filter thread and a 61mm diameter. The Contax G had a 46mm filter thread and a 56mm diameter. They appear to be the same optical formula. It should not be that hard to make this lens into a Loxia. Perhaps modernize it with some anomalous partial dispersion glass and it could be an excellent lens. I know many people would like am 85mm f/2 Sonnar, but I have my doubts they could make it small enough to fit the Loxia form factor. The ZM lens had a 58mm filter thread and although the data sheet doesn't specify its diameter I would estimate it at 65 to 70mm. Since this was a rangefinder lens they also probably made it about as skinny as they could. It is also an expensive lens. I suspect we won't ever see one, but I could be wrong. I think an 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar could easily be the fifth Loxia.
So here are the lenses I think they will very likely make in the Loxia line:
28mm f/2.8 Distagon -- my guess for the next lens
85mm f/2.8 Sonnar -- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
25mm f/2.8 Distagon -- not the 4th or 5th, but I would be surprised if they don't build it.
Lenses I think it is more likely they will build than not as Loxia:
60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar-- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
18mm f/4 Distagon -- it might be hard to build but I think they can and will do it.
If theses lenses were built then the Loxia line would look like:
18mm f/4 Distagon, 21mm f/2.8 Distagon, 25mm f/2.8 Distagon, 28mm f/4 Distagon, 35mm f/2 Biogon, 50mm f/2 Planar, 60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar, 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar.
A very nice set of eight lenses.
I think they might add--perhaps as a set of fast primes with a different diameter and filter thread:
35mm f/1.4 Distagon
50mm f/1.4 Sonnar
85mm f/2 Sonnar
I think that in time the Loxia lenses will make a really nice set of MF lenses for Sony E mount and together with the wide VC lenses announced this week a very nice set of native E mount lenses for video on the Sony A7 cameras.I hope Zeiss doesn't limit itself with the silly uniform diameter deal. The Loxia line is not true cine anyway (too much focus breathing to be taken seriously). Even serious Cine line-up like the Cook 5/i set, specialized glass does break away from the mold.
It's definitely nice to have a uniform diameter/filter thread, but not at the cost of limiting the possibility. Anything between 21 and 75 would be able to fit in the current standard, and this is where most people would shoot with. I also think they should make it fast enough (at least f/2) for anything longer...Show more →
Hiep,
I totally agree with your sentiment, but I think if they were going to change the diameter and filter thread I think they would have done so with the 21mm. That had to be a fairly serious constraint on a Distagon 21mm f/2.8. In their literature and interviews they have also fairly frequently mentioned the consistent filter size and diameter. With regard to focus breathing I think we are talking a very different price point if they address that in the lenses. Lenses with little focus breathing seem to be about 10 times more expensive than these Loxia lenses, but perhaps I am wrong about that. Zeiss seems to have made a decision to make these lenses cinema friendly, but to keep the cost much lower than full cine lenses. The first 3 don't even have floating elements (which I would love to see) and only this 21mm makes significant use of anomalous partial dispersion glass to reduce CA. I really like this lens, but would love to have seen a floating element to increase performance at close distances.
So, I hope I am wrong, but I think they will constrain themselves to the 52mm filters and 62.1 mm diameter.
Steve Spencer wrote
DavidBM wrote
I really have no idea what the next two Loxias will be; what I'd like is a 40mm f2; but that's not a Zeiss tradition if that makes a difference - maybe it does to marketing. More hope from CV.A 15mm f2.8 I think makes sense; they did one for M mount and so that gives them a "tradition"; and f2.8 is enough of a difference from f4.5 that is is a point of difference to charge a premium over the CV.
I think the trouble with a 15mm f/2.8 is that I don't think there is any way to build it with a 52mm filter thread and 62.1mm diameter that the other three Loxia share. I do expect that the new lenses will keep that filter thread and diameter as is common for video lenses.
Here are the lenses I think they might make in the long run:
18mm f/4 - the ZM 18 f/4 is 65mm in diameter and has a 58mm filter thread, but they need to redesign it anyway and it is close to the Loxia diameter and filter threat and if they make it a bit longer (probably a good idea to work well with the Sony sensor and cover glass) then I am thinking they might be able to make it skinnier. It would also fit well between the CV 15mm f/4.5 and the Loxia 21mm f/2.8. My guess is this won't be made right away both because it may be a bit hard to squeeze it in the Loxia package and I am thinking they will make a Batis 18 f/2.8 or 3.5.
25mm f/2.8 - like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 this would have to be redesigned and would probably be a distagon. Since they could make the 21mm f/2.8 into a distagon and have it fit in the package it seems that making a 25mm f/2.8 won't be a problem. I don't expect this lens right away because of the Batis 25 f/2, but I do expect one someday if the line sells well.
28mm f/2.8 - also like the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 I think this lens will be redesigned as a distagon. It shouldn't be hard and I expect it to be excellent. I will be surprised if this isn't the next Loxia.
35mm f/1.4 - this could be a remake of the ZM 35 f/1.4 that came out last year. I don't think it would need a significant redesign but it would need to be tweaked to work better with the sensor and cover glass and it should have a shorter MFD. The filter thread (49mm) and the diameter of the focus ring (60.6mm) of the ZM version are even slightly smaller than they are on the first three Loxia (filter 52mm and diameter 62.1mm), so I think it would fit as a Loxia, but it would be much more expensive. This is the lens that I most hope they build, but I am not sure if they will.
50mm f/1.4 - I think they would need to have a totally new design to make this lens work. I doubt they would tweak the ZM 50 f/1.5 Sonnar, but maybe they will and this lens certainly could work as a Loxia--but if they were going to do that I think they would have already. Would they make it Planar, a Sonnar, or a Distagon. My take is that it may well be a Sonnar and a more modern design. The Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 shows what a small Sonnar design can be, but this would be harder to build and keep small if they want to make it f/1.4. I think a Planar would be hard to keep small and have a modern rendering and I think a distagon would be too big. I probably won't be interesting in this lens unless it has excellent bokeh, which is a lot to hope for. If not I would be satisfied with the Loxia 50 f/2 Planar.
60mm f/2.8 -- I think a lens with this specs makes a lot more sense than a 50 f/2 macro both for its potential small size (see the Zeiss C/Y 60 f/2.8 C which is a quite small lens) and it differentiation from the 50 f/2 Planar. I don't think it would be hard to make this with a 52mm filter thread (the C/Y had a 55mm thread, but I think a 52mm would be possible) and I think a 62.1mm diameter is possible too (the C/Y had a 65mm diameter). So they would have to make it a bit skinnier than the C/Y, but just a bit,. I think this could well be the fifth Loxia. Having a macro would make a lot of sense.
85mm (or maybe 90mm) f//2.8 - the C/Y 85mm f/2.8 and the Contax G 90mm f/2.8 were very similar and excellent lenses but pretty small. The C/Y had a 55mm filter thread and a 61mm diameter. The Contax G had a 46mm filter thread and a 56mm diameter. They appear to be the same optical formula. It should not be that hard to make this lens into a Loxia. Perhaps modernize it with some anomalous partial dispersion glass and it could be an excellent lens. I know many people would like am 85mm f/2 Sonnar, but I have my doubts they could make it small enough to fit the Loxia form factor. The ZM lens had a 58mm filter thread and although the data sheet doesn't specify its diameter I would estimate it at 65 to 70mm. Since this was a rangefinder lens they also probably made it about as skinny as they could. It is also an expensive lens. I suspect we won't ever see one, but I could be wrong. I think an 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar could easily be the fifth Loxia.
So here are the lenses I think they will very likely make in the Loxia line:
28mm f/2.8 Distagon -- my guess for the next lens
85mm f/2.8 Sonnar -- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
25mm f/2.8 Distagon -- not the 4th or 5th, but I would be surprised if they don't build it.
Lenses I think it is more likely they will build than not as Loxia:
60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar-- one of my guesses for the fifth lens
18mm f/4 Distagon -- it might be hard to build but I think they can and will do it.
If theses lenses were built then the Loxia line would look like:
18mm f/4 Distagon, 21mm f/2.8 Distagon, 25mm f/2.8 Distagon, 28mm f/4 Distagon, 35mm f/2 Biogon, 50mm f/2 Planar, 60mm f/2.8 Macro Planar, 85mm f/2.8 Sonnar.
A very nice set of eight lenses.
I think they might add--perhaps as a set of fast primes with a different diameter and filter thread:
35mm f/1.4 Distagon
50mm f/1.4 Sonnar
85mm f/2 Sonnar
I think that in time the Loxia lenses will make a really nice set of MF lenses for Sony E mount and together with the wide VC lenses announced this week a very nice set of native E mount lenses for video on the Sony A7 cameras.
It's definitely nice to have a uniform diameter/filter thread, but not at the cost of limiting the possibility. Anything between 21 and 75 would be able to fit in the current standard, and this is where most people would shoot with. I also think they should make it fast enough (at least f/2) for anything longer...Show more →
Hiep,
I totally agree with your sentiment, but I think if they were going to change the diameter and filter thread I think they would have done so with the 21mm. That had to be a fairly serious constraint on a Distagon 21mm f/2.8. In their literature and interviews they have also fairly frequently mentioned the consistent filter size and diameter. With regard to focus breathing I think we are talking a very different price point if they address that in the lenses. Lenses with little focus breathing seem to be about 10 times more expensive than these Loxia lenses, but perhaps I am wrong about that. Zeiss seems to have made a decision to make these lenses cinema friendly, but to keep the cost much lower than full cine lenses. The first 3 don't even have floating elements (which I would love to see) and only this 21mm makes significant use of anomalous partial dispersion glass to reduce CA. I really like this lens, but would love to have seen a floating element to increase performance at close distances.
So, I hope I am wrong, but I think they will constrain themselves to the 52mm filters and 62.1 mm diameter.
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:34 AM
p.6 #14Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
You have a great memory. Have to admit being a grandfather to the alternative forum with Zeiss and Leica glass. Fun times
Wish I still had some of that glass
johnahill wrote:
As one of the pioneers of using CY21 Distagon on a Canon body you owe it to yourself to have a Zeiss 21 again
Wish I still had some of that glass
johnahill wrote:
GMPhotography wrote
Okay I put my name on a pre- order list. Will see what December brings if I get it.Oct 13, 2015 at 08:51 AM
p.6 #15Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
justruss wrote:
MTF looks really strong. For a compact, high IQ, 21mm on the A7(x) cameras... this will be the one to beat.
Now we just need Samyang to give us the 90-95% IQ for 30% of the price options.
Samyang's tend toward the large end of things though.
Oct 13, 2015 at 08:55 AM
p.6 #16Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Steve Spencer wrote:
I totally agree Lee, but keep in mind the A7r II shoots in Super 35 for 4K, so it could very much benefit from wider lenses due to the crop factor as well. I think Super 35 comes out to a 1.4 crop factor, doesn't it?
Ah, I didn't realize that, I was thinking more about the A7s series being the main motion cams. Good point.
The crop factor / format is a little confusing because there are various aspect ratios. 1.4x (1.39x is closer) is correct for the maximum "4 perf" 4:3 Super35 frame of 24.89x18.66mm, which is the max the Ultra's and Master's can cover, but nothing is shot in that format. Typically you'd be using 16:9, which is ~1.51x or 2.35:1 which is ~1.59x. And that's just for digital which actually uses roughly the full nominal area, it gets even weirder when you look at film cameras that used even smaller subsets or turned the film 90 degrees. Sorry, that's way off topic.
I totally agree Lee, but keep in mind the A7r II shoots in Super 35 for 4K, so it could very much benefit from wider lenses due to the crop factor as well. I think Super 35 comes out to a 1.4 crop factor, doesn't it?
Ah, I didn't realize that, I was thinking more about the A7s series being the main motion cams. Good point.
The crop factor / format is a little confusing because there are various aspect ratios. 1.4x (1.39x is closer) is correct for the maximum "4 perf" 4:3 Super35 frame of 24.89x18.66mm, which is the max the Ultra's and Master's can cover, but nothing is shot in that format. Typically you'd be using 16:9, which is ~1.51x or 2.35:1 which is ~1.59x. And that's just for digital which actually uses roughly the full nominal area, it gets even weirder when you look at film cameras that used even smaller subsets or turned the film 90 degrees. Sorry, that's way off topic.
Oct 13, 2015 at 10:16 AM
p.6 #17Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
So, when does the ZM version ship?
Oct 13, 2015 at 12:13 PM
p.6 #18Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
davewolfs wrote:
I am having a hard time deciding between this and the Batis 25, but focal length and compact size of the 2,8/21 is perfect, it is even lighter than I would have expected.I've found 24mm often not wide enough or too wide.
Will be picking up the 21mm for sure.
Agree. I liked the b25, except for the foc len.
Will consider this 21 or wait for an AF (but this is the one foclen I'm favoring MF), to go with the Zony 35.
twoeye wrote
Jochenb wrote
Exactly the lens I've been waiting for!Will be picking up the 21mm for sure.
Agree. I liked the b25, except for the foc len.
Will consider this 21 or wait for an AF (but this is the one foclen I'm favoring MF), to go with the Zony 35.
Oct 13, 2015 at 12:26 PM
p.6 #19Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
My bet Loxia line will be , 21,28 T/S,35,50,75,135 APO and maybe a 15
Batis line 18,25,35,50 Macro (1:1 native),85,135 and 200
Don't mind me. Just making some minor adjustments.
My bet Loxia line will be , 21,28 T/S,35,50,75,135 APO and maybe a 15
Batis line 18,25,35,50 Macro (1:1 native),85,135 and 200
Don't mind me. Just making some minor adjustments.
Oct 13, 2015 at 01:42 PM