This topic is in the 2015 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2015Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
p.47 #1Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
OleAndre wrote:
In general I dont really think we disagree - I just like to point out to those who are evaluating whether to buy the Loxia should remember that there is a higher likelihood that you will get a good lens, than a bad lens (which doesn't really become clear in this thread).
perhaps the only thing we disagree on is the value of pointing out the obvious....
In general I dont really think we disagree - I just like to point out to those who are evaluating whether to buy the Loxia should remember that there is a higher likelihood that you will get a good lens, than a bad lens (which doesn't really become clear in this thread).
perhaps the only thing we disagree on is the value of pointing out the obvious....
Feb 29, 2016 at 03:09 PM
p.47 #2Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
tsdevine wrote:
Cross posted from the FE images thread.
Sony a7R II + Loxia 21 @ f/2.8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1463/24733651844_3fc6062a58_h.jpg
Gunsmith Shop by Tim Devine, on Flickr
-Tim
this photo is an example for my purposes where field curvature may be a benefit - given the manner in which the walls wrap towards the camera - it would be good to have the focus loosely follow them -
my 3 main purposes are European cathedral interiors, narrow streets and tight interiors such as your gun shop - all of which may do well with a bit of forward field curvature.
Cross posted from the FE images thread.
Sony a7R II + Loxia 21 @ f/2.8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1463/24733651844_3fc6062a58_h.jpg
Gunsmith Shop by Tim Devine, on Flickr
-Tim
this photo is an example for my purposes where field curvature may be a benefit - given the manner in which the walls wrap towards the camera - it would be good to have the focus loosely follow them -
my 3 main purposes are European cathedral interiors, narrow streets and tight interiors such as your gun shop - all of which may do well with a bit of forward field curvature.
Feb 29, 2016 at 03:13 PM
p.47 #3Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I shoot a lot of intimate landscape and I feel this can be an asset as well. So I'm not sure it's always 100% safe to say that any field curvature is bad. Especially if it can be mitigated for true scenic @ infinity landscape shooting. I don't shoot much of that, but my impression is that you can have a good comprise by shooting at the hard stop with the lens (for expansive scenic shots.)
-Tim
ecarlino wrote:
tsdevine wrote
Cross posted from the FE images thread.Sony a7R II + Loxia 21 @ f/2.8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1463/24733651844_3fc6062a58_h.jpg
Gunsmith Shop by Tim Devine, on Flickr
-Tim
my 3 main purposes are European cathedral interiors, narrow streets and tight interiors such as your gun shop - all of which may do well with a bit of forward field curvature.
Feb 29, 2016 at 03:25 PM
p.47 #4Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
As an outsider on this, it is sounding like a fairly high percentage of our FM members have observed an unacceptable amount of decentering and to a lesser extent the field curvature of the lens. Add to that there have been a reasonable number of complaints regarding the hard stop and the ability to hold focus from a moderate to infinity distance. There also appears to be the objection to the short focus throw, the distance and size and distance between the aperture ring and focusing ring as well as the difficulty in grabbing the lens for mounting and removing the lens from the camera.
Rich
Rich
Feb 29, 2016 at 03:44 PM
p.47 #5Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
FWIW, I've gotten used to not adjusting focus when adjusting aperture (and vice versa)....but I also don't wear gloves. I have fingerless convertible mittens, for those with gloves, I can understand it would be a bigger challenge.
Also, I've found that if I use my thumb and pointer finger, I can successfully mount and dismount the lens without mucking with the focus and aperture ring too much.
The focus throw is kind of short, no way around it.
I haven't done extensive centering tests on mine, but I haven't noticed anything egregious in normal use.
For field curvature, that has some subjectivity to it, and each person might have a differing opinion.
But at the end of the day, I can't argue with anything you said Rich. Just giving my perspective so far.
-Tim
naturephoto1 wrote:
As an outsider on this, it is sounding like a fairly high percentage of our FM members have observed an unacceptable amount of decentering and to a lesser extent the field curvature of the lens. Add to that there have been a reasonable number of complaints regarding the hard stop and the ability to hold focus from a moderate to infinity distance. There also appears to be the objection to the short focus throw, the distance and size and distance between the aperture ring and focusing ring as well as the difficulty in grabbing the lens for mounting and removing...Show more →
Also, I've found that if I use my thumb and pointer finger, I can successfully mount and dismount the lens without mucking with the focus and aperture ring too much.
The focus throw is kind of short, no way around it.
I haven't done extensive centering tests on mine, but I haven't noticed anything egregious in normal use.
For field curvature, that has some subjectivity to it, and each person might have a differing opinion.
But at the end of the day, I can't argue with anything you said Rich. Just giving my perspective so far.
-Tim
naturephoto1 wrote:
As an outsider on this, it is sounding like a fairly high percentage of our FM members have observed an unacceptable amount of decentering and to a lesser extent the field curvature of the lens. Add to that there have been a reasonable number of complaints regarding the hard stop and the ability to hold focus from a moderate to infinity distance. There also appears to be the objection to the short focus throw, the distance and size and distance between the aperture ring and focusing ring as well as the difficulty in grabbing the lens for mounting and removing...Show more →
Feb 29, 2016 at 03:55 PM
p.47 #6Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
OleAndre wrote:
Probably yeah, but I didn't do that in Hong Kong, and in Norway it still gets dark before i get home from work. Hence the Kitchen test
Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right side, whereas the left side was close to perfect even @f/2.8
So it went to service at Oberkochen.
ecarlino wrote
isn't that test (i.e. flipping the camera around) supposed to be done focused at infinity - not inside your kitchen?Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right side, whereas the left side was close to perfect even @f/2.8
So it went to service at Oberkochen.
Feb 29, 2016 at 04:06 PM
p.47 #7Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
My Loxia 21 is near perfect. I would venture to say that it's the best wide I've ever used, if not one of the very best lenses I've ever shot, and I've owned a multitude of M mount glass. It is certainly better across the frame than the Batis 25 I recently sold. At f2.8 my Loxia is on par with my Batis at f5.6 when comparing the outer zones. CA is also quite severe with the Batis 25, even when stopped down, while with the Loxia 21 it's almost non-existent.
I have no issue with the short focus throw. I shoot both stills and video and the short throw is advantageous for the latter. My Loxia 50/2.0 has twice the focus throw and when trying to nail focus using peaking in video mode, the long focus throw makes the task a little more cumbersome.
Mounting the lens seems like it may cause grief given the lack of meat to grip when doing so, but I just grab everything and twist and it just locks into place without any apparent sinister consequences.
My only criticism, perhaps more an idiosyncrasy, is that the field curvature requires a little more thought when composing and focussing. However, given that almost every Leica M wide I've owned had field curvature (in most cases more so than my Loxia 21), I am used to dealing with this minor quirk.
For those that have been unfortunate to be dealt sub-par samples, I would suggest that you persevere and either get it repaired or replaced. This lens is truly a sensational little beast!
I have no issue with the short focus throw. I shoot both stills and video and the short throw is advantageous for the latter. My Loxia 50/2.0 has twice the focus throw and when trying to nail focus using peaking in video mode, the long focus throw makes the task a little more cumbersome.
Mounting the lens seems like it may cause grief given the lack of meat to grip when doing so, but I just grab everything and twist and it just locks into place without any apparent sinister consequences.
My only criticism, perhaps more an idiosyncrasy, is that the field curvature requires a little more thought when composing and focussing. However, given that almost every Leica M wide I've owned had field curvature (in most cases more so than my Loxia 21), I am used to dealing with this minor quirk.
For those that have been unfortunate to be dealt sub-par samples, I would suggest that you persevere and either get it repaired or replaced. This lens is truly a sensational little beast!
Feb 29, 2016 at 04:50 PM
p.47 #8Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I've been having a blast with the 21. In NY shooting and most used lens than my CV 35 1.7 which looks to be even better than shooting bloody walls and my 50 Loxia has been getting some play too. Couple 15 and 85 as well. My only grip is mounting it and dismounting. Agree just turn everything. I'm thinking of keeping the CV 35 1.7 because if I get the mid zoom I would like this for more character.
Feb 29, 2016 at 05:35 PM
p.47 #9Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Oh the 28 has not got a lot of work. It seems in real world the gap between 21 and 35 is not so bad
Feb 29, 2016 at 05:36 PM
p.47 #10Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I have the Batis 25 and the Loxia 21 on order. Who knows how long that could take but now I am questioning the need for the 21 as the FOV is not much different than the 25 (I am basing this on pictures of the same scene I have seen taken with both lenses. I could certainly find a way to rationalize the 21. I have the Loxia 35 and it is a lot more fun to use. I could also see the 25 being relegated to street use and using the 21 strictly for landscape and architecture. First world problems, I know.
Feb 29, 2016 at 08:06 PM
p.47 #11Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
col4bin wrote:
I have the Batis 25 and the Loxia 21 on order. Who knows how long that could take but now I am questioning the need for the 21 as the FOV is not much different than the 25 (I am basing this on pictures of the same scene I have seen taken with both lenses. I could certainly find a way to rationalize the 21. I have the Loxia 35 and it is a lot more fun to use. I could also see the 25 being relegated to street use and using the 21 strictly for landscape and architecture. First...Show more →
Having used both the Loxia 21 and Batis 25, I prefer the handling of the Loxia and, more importantly, the images it produces. And given that you own a Loxia 35, it makes more senses to go with a 21mm wide. The Loxia 21 will be perfectly fine for street and will give you a little more width when shooting landscapes.
I have the Batis 25 and the Loxia 21 on order. Who knows how long that could take but now I am questioning the need for the 21 as the FOV is not much different than the 25 (I am basing this on pictures of the same scene I have seen taken with both lenses. I could certainly find a way to rationalize the 21. I have the Loxia 35 and it is a lot more fun to use. I could also see the 25 being relegated to street use and using the 21 strictly for landscape and architecture. First...Show more →
Having used both the Loxia 21 and Batis 25, I prefer the handling of the Loxia and, more importantly, the images it produces. And given that you own a Loxia 35, it makes more senses to go with a 21mm wide. The Loxia 21 will be perfectly fine for street and will give you a little more width when shooting landscapes.
Feb 29, 2016 at 08:58 PM
p.47 #12Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
PEKA62 wrote:
Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right...Show more →
Exactly. Get outside test at infinity. Refocus, and try numerous viewpoints to eliminate variables. One photo walk will do it.
alksv wrote:
This is mildly offtopic, but I often find myself thinking that we've just developed this habit of obsessing over stuff and searching for possible flaws. In any and all craft. It has been developing as fast as the tech progress. I don't want to classify it as good or bad, it just is. A habit. And I often wonder if it detracts from the experience, if it gets in the way of what a person wants to achieve. We've made this gigantic technological leap in the last 10 years that people couldn't even dream of making only 15 years ago....Show more →
Well, since the species is 170,000 years old and the scientific revolution is 400 or so years old, I guess the "obsessing" is "new", though I'm sure obsessing over mates, prey and rivals was popular from the start
Kubrick always tested multiple copies when he could, as did most of the best pros in the past. That's not to say you must. We can't care about everything. Nothing wrong with not caring if your 21 is decentered. What is wrong is implying those who do are "obsessing" unnecessarily. Why do you spend a bundle on lots of pixels, and a brand new Zeiss lens? For technical excellence. It's not a stupid quest, especially shooting landscapes.
Decentering is an issue in general. But we know Sony/Zeiss needs some work on QC, though they don't want to hear it, and even many owners don't want to hear it.
Nobody's perfect. We all can improve. Unless of course we succumb to denial, another doubtless ancient tendency
By now it's pretty clear if you have a good copy nearly every Sony/Zeiss lens is very good. So just buy from a good vendor with a return policy and return the poor copy straight away. If it's used be sure you are allowed to test it.
Or just be happy and hope your copies are fine, for sure you may not notice flaws in general shooting.
Or, if you don't care about having the autofoucs, spend the 4 to 500 on the Kolari sensor mod and shoot the nice small high quality Leica, Zeiss and other RF lenses (or any great film lens).
I think any of these paths make sense, depending on your priorities. But would not everyone hope for QC on the level shown by Canon and Nikon, with their most consistent lenses? Both anecdotal and objective multi copy testing at lensrentals show Sony/Zeiss is not currently at that level.
Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right...Show more →
Exactly. Get outside test at infinity. Refocus, and try numerous viewpoints to eliminate variables. One photo walk will do it.
alksv wrote:
This is mildly offtopic, but I often find myself thinking that we've just developed this habit of obsessing over stuff and searching for possible flaws. In any and all craft. It has been developing as fast as the tech progress. I don't want to classify it as good or bad, it just is. A habit. And I often wonder if it detracts from the experience, if it gets in the way of what a person wants to achieve. We've made this gigantic technological leap in the last 10 years that people couldn't even dream of making only 15 years ago....Show more →
Well, since the species is 170,000 years old and the scientific revolution is 400 or so years old, I guess the "obsessing" is "new", though I'm sure obsessing over mates, prey and rivals was popular from the start
Kubrick always tested multiple copies when he could, as did most of the best pros in the past. That's not to say you must. We can't care about everything. Nothing wrong with not caring if your 21 is decentered. What is wrong is implying those who do are "obsessing" unnecessarily. Why do you spend a bundle on lots of pixels, and a brand new Zeiss lens? For technical excellence. It's not a stupid quest, especially shooting landscapes.
Decentering is an issue in general. But we know Sony/Zeiss needs some work on QC, though they don't want to hear it, and even many owners don't want to hear it.
Nobody's perfect. We all can improve. Unless of course we succumb to denial, another doubtless ancient tendency
By now it's pretty clear if you have a good copy nearly every Sony/Zeiss lens is very good. So just buy from a good vendor with a return policy and return the poor copy straight away. If it's used be sure you are allowed to test it.
Or just be happy and hope your copies are fine, for sure you may not notice flaws in general shooting.
Or, if you don't care about having the autofoucs, spend the 4 to 500 on the Kolari sensor mod and shoot the nice small high quality Leica, Zeiss and other RF lenses (or any great film lens).
I think any of these paths make sense, depending on your priorities. But would not everyone hope for QC on the level shown by Canon and Nikon, with their most consistent lenses? Both anecdotal and objective multi copy testing at lensrentals show Sony/Zeiss is not currently at that level.
Mar 01, 2016 at 10:52 AM
p.47 #13Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Just because it is spring, I am having a lot of fun with the Loxia and this is a photo forum, some pictures.
Btw dumb question, but can anyone advise on the best way to deal with the field curvature? (obviously not applicable to my close ups......).
Btw dumb question, but can anyone advise on the best way to deal with the field curvature? (obviously not applicable to my close ups......).
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Mar 01, 2016 at 11:52 AM
p.47 #14Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
JocoFoto wrote:
Just because it is spring, I am having a lot of fun with the Loxia and this is a photo forum, some pictures.
Btw dumb question, but can anyone advise on the best way to deal with the field curvature? (obviously not applicable to my close ups......).
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1716/25117916630_c15b81acb0_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1625/24786820183_d34da183cf_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1449/25320547271_86cb677643_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1592/25320546921_073c984431_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1482/25295213702_f06a3ffac1_o.jpg
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Very smooth OOF rendition for a 21mm lens at close distances.
To your question on how to deal with the Loxia 21/2.8 field curvature:
When you focus your scene, imagine the edges of the frame turning towards the foreground. So, if you focus on the very center at infinity distance, the edges and extreme edges will lose some resolution by basically going out of focus. (The focus on the edges moves forward). With he Loxia 21/2.8 this happens a tad before the infinity hard stop. When the focusing ring is turned towards the hard stop by a very small amount, the center goes slightly out of focus in exchange for better corner performance. You can't get everything in perfect focus but stopping the lens down to f/8 or f/11 masks field curvature making it almost unnoticeable.
Practically, I would say if you want a landscape scene to be well focused center and edges, be very close or at the hard stop. If you want better sharpness in the center and foreground, move the focus ring from the hard stop just a tad.
Just because it is spring, I am having a lot of fun with the Loxia and this is a photo forum, some pictures.
Btw dumb question, but can anyone advise on the best way to deal with the field curvature? (obviously not applicable to my close ups......).
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1716/25117916630_c15b81acb0_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1625/24786820183_d34da183cf_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1449/25320547271_86cb677643_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1592/25320546921_073c984431_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1482/25295213702_f06a3ffac1_o.jpg
----------------------
Very smooth OOF rendition for a 21mm lens at close distances.
To your question on how to deal with the Loxia 21/2.8 field curvature:
When you focus your scene, imagine the edges of the frame turning towards the foreground. So, if you focus on the very center at infinity distance, the edges and extreme edges will lose some resolution by basically going out of focus. (The focus on the edges moves forward). With he Loxia 21/2.8 this happens a tad before the infinity hard stop. When the focusing ring is turned towards the hard stop by a very small amount, the center goes slightly out of focus in exchange for better corner performance. You can't get everything in perfect focus but stopping the lens down to f/8 or f/11 masks field curvature making it almost unnoticeable.
Practically, I would say if you want a landscape scene to be well focused center and edges, be very close or at the hard stop. If you want better sharpness in the center and foreground, move the focus ring from the hard stop just a tad.
Mar 01, 2016 at 12:10 PM
p.47 #16Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Finally, my copy arrived. It is perfect now, the Zeiss service person was very friendly during our last conversation.
http://phillipreeve.net/blog/rolling-review-zeiss-loxia-distagon-2-821mm-t/
Due to the trouble that I had, I think that I am goint to sell the lens but it is really a marvel.
http://phillipreeve.net/blog/rolling-review-zeiss-loxia-distagon-2-821mm-t/
Due to the trouble that I had, I think that I am goint to sell the lens but it is really a marvel.
Mar 01, 2016 at 12:27 PM
p.47 #17Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Thanks for the advice Fred!
Yes, to my eyes the Loxia 21mm is performing very very good at short distance. The bokeh is nice and the sharpness (for want of a better word) is amazing even at 2.8. True to life rendition all the way to 100% magnification. On medium 'street type' distances it is still great, so for my purposes I am very pleased and happy. I do not intend to check corners at infinity because it may just spoil the fun for me.
Btw Bob I always like your pics and in particular enthusiasm that shows off. Which is obvious again in your recent shots, many of them with the Loxia.
Yes, to my eyes the Loxia 21mm is performing very very good at short distance. The bokeh is nice and the sharpness (for want of a better word) is amazing even at 2.8. True to life rendition all the way to 100% magnification. On medium 'street type' distances it is still great, so for my purposes I am very pleased and happy. I do not intend to check corners at infinity because it may just spoil the fun for me.
Btw Bob I always like your pics and in particular enthusiasm that shows off. Which is obvious again in your recent shots, many of them with the Loxia.
Mar 01, 2016 at 12:28 PM
p.47 #18Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
PEKA62 wrote:
Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right...Show more →
Thanks Peka. Will do some proper testing on various subjects in the weekend.
Ole
Ole, you can't say anything about the centering of a 21 mm lens by shooting such close subjects inside your kitchen.
Get outside and choose a subject 500 meters away. Put the cam on a tripod and focus with the subject in the center of the frame. From now on don't touch the focus-ring anymore. Chose M. Stop down the lens to f/4 or f/5.6. Select shutter speed. Put your (far away and small in viewfinder) subject in each corner. If all 4 shots are equal or close, the lens is fine.
Mine didn't really get sharp @ f/8 on the right...Show more →
Thanks Peka. Will do some proper testing on various subjects in the weekend.
Ole
Mar 01, 2016 at 01:03 PM
p.47 #19Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Why would having the trouble, and seeing it through to resolution, cause you to sell the lens?
Just curious...
-Tim
Jannik Peters wrote:
Finally, my copy arrived. It is perfect now, the Zeiss service person was very friendly during our last conversation.
http://phillipreeve.net/blog/rolling-review-zeiss-loxia-distagon-2-821mm-t/
Due to the trouble that I had, I think that I am goint to sell the lens but it is really a marvel.
Mar 01, 2016 at 01:18 PM
p.47 #20Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Wondering the same thing. One of the best wides you can buy.
Now you know you have a good copy
Now you know you have a good copy
Mar 01, 2016 at 01:26 PM