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Archive 2015 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)

  
 
timballic
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p.3 #1 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Finally had some clear patches, between clouds, for less than an hour! (What a summer!)

What they show is that the ones with the worst corners (esp. the EF 17-40@20) have the easiest dealt with hot-spots/ghosts, the sharpest (OM Z 21/3.5), has by far the worst hot-spot/ghosts! That seems to be the rule that can be applied to them all! (I didn't reshoot the CV 20/3.5 here, having established earlier that its strong rings of ghosts, throughout the range, disqualified it.)

Sequences F/3.5-16
Row1. EF 17-40 @20
Row2. Pentax 20/4
Row3. Nikon Ai 20/3.5
Row4. OM Z 21/3.5
20mm IR comparison by Timothy Ball, on Flickr (Full size file, follow link.)

The edges and corners of the EF and PK REALLY are poor: (EF here, @20/8, lower rt, 1:1)
L.Rt EF 17-40 @20/8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

I think I've come to a standstill (except trying the single coated version of the OMZ 21/3.5)

My conclusion, if you want an A7 converting, and want to use wider than 28mm, get it done by KolariVision, with thin filter for better corners, and AR coatings to reduce hot-spots and ghosts!



Jul 14, 2016 at 01:42 PM
Karlstorm
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p.3 #2 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Do they make infrared flashes? As in, a flash of infrared light


Jul 15, 2016 at 01:36 AM
timballic
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p.3 #3 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Karlstorm wrote:
Do they make infrared flashes? As in, a flash of infrared light


Sorry, I don't know.



Jul 15, 2016 at 04:22 AM
timballic
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p.3 #4 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Well, Ilija at Kolari Vision offered me a very good deal, to swap out my standard thickness (2mm?) 830nm filter and replace it with their thin, AR coated, 850nm filter. The camera is on its way to him now.

I've also acquired a single coated OM Z 21/3.5, which is on its way to me (The EF 17-40/4 has been returned, as unsuitable.) I'll be selling the Pentax too, as I don't imagine Kolari Vision's thin filter could make THAT much difference. I'll keep it until I can see what difference it does make though.

This link may be of interest, with reference to Kolari Vision's AR coating: http://infraedd.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/kolaris-answer-to-hot-spot-issue_3.html



Jul 20, 2016 at 05:39 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #5 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


I only just noticed that link with the tests of the Kolari AR coating Tim. While better I'm not sure it would be enough if they charge much for it.

Have you had a chance to test yours yet?



Aug 28, 2016 at 04:42 AM
timballic
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p.3 #6 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Hi Mike, It's still with Kolari, as they ran out of 850nmAR filters just as mine was on its way to them. Hoping it won't be much longer. I'll report back when I have any results.


Aug 30, 2016 at 08:04 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #7 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Thanks Tim ....


Aug 30, 2016 at 01:01 PM
timballic
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p.3 #8 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


So sorry for the long delay. A7 only back from Kolari Vision 2 weeks ago, (with the "thin" 850nm AR filter)
and I'm also struggling with a spate of migraines which photography doesn't help.

My very first look, and I really haven't "peeped" yet. (Contrast enhanced in Lr)
Lenses by row:
1. OM Z 21/3.5 sc F/3.5-16
2. OM Z 21/3.5 mc F/3.5-16
3. CV 20/3.5 F/3.5-22
4. Nik 20/3.5 F/3.5-22
5. P M 20/4 F/4-22
6. Tok 17/3.5 F/3.5-16

KolariVs A7 with 20mms by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

Oh dear, those don't look good for reflections/hot spots. Only the OM 21/3.5 sc looking useable,(first row), which is as it was before with the Protech 830nm 2mm(?) filter.
I don't really think the AR coating has done very much, though I need to get back to compare with the previous series to see just how great the difference really is...I'd certainly hoped they'd be a lot better.

I DO hope the corner sharpness is much improved or the amount I've spent will have been a rather pointless waste of money...except of course for anyone following this thread and considering getting an A7 converted

What is now needed is the F/8 version of each, full size, to compare.

[EDIT] A quick preliminary look at the corners, shows they have actually been made worse by the Kolari mod, now even the OMs and the CV 20, that were sharp before, look poor! I can only conclude that something must have gone wrong with the conversion, as the corners should very definitely have improved. &

Edited on Oct 06, 2016 at 12:20 PM · View previous versions



Oct 06, 2016 at 08:50 AM
timballic
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p.3 #9 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


With these F/8 comparisons, the full size images can be found by following the Flickr links.
Focus was on the corner of the concrete trough in centre foreground.

OM Z 21/3.5sc @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
OM Z 21/3.5mc @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
CV 20/3.5 @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Nik 20/3.5 @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Pentax M 20/4 @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Tok 17/3.7 @8 by Timothy Ball, on Flickr


(Next, I'll do a 1:1 of the lower right to show corner sharpness, or lack of it. )






Oct 06, 2016 at 10:59 AM
timballic
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p.3 #10 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


1:1 LR corner F/8

OM Z 21/3.5 sc @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
OM Z 21/3.5 mc @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
CV 20/3.5 @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Nik 20/3.5 @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
P M 20/4 @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Tok 17/3.5 @8 1:1 LR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

Ouch! Those are not very pretty are they. Now even the Zuikos and the CV 20's corners, that were "acceptable" before, are consistently poor, (on all my results, not just this set)!

What have Kolari Vision done! Obviously the corners should have been much improved.
From correspondence with Kolari before the conversion, I believe that setting-up/positioning the thin filter is a very tricky operation, that requires great skill. Something must have gone wrong with converting mine
If it wasn't that I am in the UK, I'd send it straight back to be re-checked/aligned, but as it is, postal fees and customs duties have exceeded the cost of the conversion!

I think that from these results, I can only conclude that, if you don't HAVE to use an A7, (I prefer to have both colour and IR camera the same make, and I wanted the lightweight camera), yet you still want a full frame camera converting to IR, the Canon 6D is probably a better choice, and then you can use the EF 17-40, as the optimum IR w/a.

Probably not much point at this stage, in showing the Protech 830nm vs Kolari thin 850nm AR comparisons, as they show the reverse of what they should.

What I need now, is to find out what Kolari Vision have to say.



Oct 06, 2016 at 11:22 AM
timballic
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p.3 #11 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


At Kolari's request, I am going to see if field curvature has increased with their thin filter cf. the Protech filter, ie, by reshooting but focussing in the corner instead of near centre. If there is a marked difference, I'll post the results here.


Oct 07, 2016 at 02:32 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #12 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Thanks for the update Tim. Unfortunate news. I think I've decided to skip FF for my next conversion. My 1st thought was to go with an OMD EM5 with the 720 and the AR filter but with the new Sony 6500 on the horizon I might get my 6300 converted instead and sell off the OM system completely, especially as I only have a couple of OM lenses (rest are adapted). Also probably skip the AR coating.

I may be wrong (and perhaps you did this) but I thought that custom duties could be limited to paying on only the value of the service done when an item is shipped from the UK and then back in (ie so that you don't pay for duty on the value of the camera, just the Kolari mod). If that's true I don't know if it's too late to recover some money, but it might make it duty free if you have to ship it back for warranty work.



Oct 07, 2016 at 03:44 AM
timballic
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p.3 #13 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Thanks Mike. According to Customs, all they have billed me for is on the work done, but £56 for a mod costing ~£110 is outrageous. The calculations they sent me, show something very different, including the full new value of the camera (even though it was a used body I'd bought at far less a cost), but since sending me their calculations, they aren't even responding to my emails to explain the figures they've used! They've had my money.....
I agree, a warranty job should be duty free, but first I have to "prove" to Kolari, that something isn't normal.



Oct 07, 2016 at 04:20 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #14 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Damn govment ....


Oct 07, 2016 at 06:01 AM
timballic
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p.3 #15 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Just in case anyone might be interested....

Histograms (Lr 5.7)from controlled test set-up, using FE 55/1.8 lens

Protech 830nm by Timothy Ball, on Flickr
Kolari thin 850nm AR by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

The main thing here, is just how similar the curves are, only the thin blue line of the Protech 830nm stands out.
In Lr "Compare view", they superimpose almost exactly (apart from the blue),

What does this mean in practise? Well, I would expect the results SOC to look very very similar, and exposures to be the same.
This is of course just as it should be between 8309 and 850nm filters, but both Protech and Kolari seem to guard their sources identities, so they could have varied in practise by a lot more. It also means, both are using equally well manufactured filters.
I suppose it could be argued that at 830nm, no blue light should be getting through, but there isn't a lot.



Oct 07, 2016 at 11:53 AM
timballic
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p.3 #16 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Just in case someone might be interested:

I compared the OM Z 100/2.8 mc with my single coated Nikon E 100/2.8 Both lenses about equally good in colour

Just as with the OM Z 24mm mc:sc comparison earlier, the single coated Nikon E (right) is so much clearer in IR than the multi coated OM (Comparison below of 1:1 enlargements,in Lr5, no adjustments applied, from centre of pics, both F/8)

Untitled by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

I've repeated this with the OM Z 21/3.5 mc : sc (I may get round to posting the comparison), and the result just confirms the above and those with the 24mm OMs earlier. The multi coating really does mess up the IR performance in a big way!

Stick to the earlier, single coated, OM Zs and the Nik E range

I can vouch for the Silver nose, single coated OM Z 21/3.5, 24/2.8. 28/3.5 and 50/1.8, as all being excellent performers in IR, the 35/2.8 isn't as good, but the Nik E 35/2.5 has a very good IR reputation, (from diglloyd no less)

I'm now looking for an OM Z silver nose version of the 85/2, as I find the 50mm:100mm jump a bit wide. I know the later mc version was a redesign and better, but I think the multi coating will offset that.


I'v decided to continue my report on the Kolari Modded IR A7 on a new thread, as it's much more specifically about the difference with the Kolari IR thin filter mod, than about the lenses.



Nov 02, 2016 at 09:21 AM
DavidBM
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p.3 #17 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


timballic wrote:
Just in case someone might be interested:

I compared the OM Z 100/2.8 mc with my single coated Nikon E 100/2.8 Both lenses about equally good in colour

Just as with the OM Z 24mm mc:sc comparison earlier, the single coated Nikon E (right) is so much clearer in IR than the multi coated OM (Comparison below of 1:1 enlargements,in Lr5, no adjustments applied, from centre of pics, both F/8)

https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5507/30696641476_37d86b5f7c_h.jpgUntitled by Timothy Ball, on Flickr

I've repeated this with the OM Z 21/3.5 mc : sc (I may get round to posting the comparison), and the result just confirms the above and those
...Show more

Looking at your samples I'm even less sure than I was that what I'm about to suggest is the right explanation, but thanks Tim, really interesting comparison.


But I wonder if the sharpness effect is just one about focus offset in the IR being different? I know that the IR focus offset markings on lenses are rarely accurate, I need to calibrate lenses. And the difference can be very large.
I wonder if the MC versions are just focussing at a different point, and once you test what it is and work out a custom offset if all will be well. Not at all sure it’s right, but worth investigating if you haven’t already. I will post this at FM as well in case you don’t get notified here.

The hot spotting is not a surprise, I guess we know that often more recent coatings contribute to that (though someone I though trustworthy was vouching for all versions of the 24).


Personally I’m hoping it won’t matter for me: I’m using Ilford SFX film, which is really mainly responsive to to low frequency red and only the highest frequency IR, so it may not matter compared to true IR film (which you can’t get) or IR modified digital sensors.

EDIT: OOPS my hypothesis can be safely ignored. I had forgotten you are using digital, so you can actually focus the image, and you aren't relying on focusing in visible light, whacking on the filter and guessing the offset like us film IR types...



May 29, 2020 at 05:59 AM
timballic
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p.3 #18 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


Ha ha, I was just typing in that answer when I saw your Edit ;o)

When I eventually found a good copy of the OM 100/2.8 in single coat, it was even better than the Nikon E 100/2.8 above.

Those older multi coats have a definite bad effect in IR, however, I've found the modern EF Zeiss 55/2.8 as good as my single coated OM 50/1.8, so it isn't a universal principle.




May 29, 2020 at 07:05 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #19 · Infrared and alt lenses (on A7)


DavidBM wrote:
Looking at your samples I'm even less sure than I was that what I'm about to suggest is the right explanation, but thanks Tim, really interesting comparison.

But I wonder if the sharpness effect is just one about focus offset in the IR being different? I know that the IR focus offset markings on lenses are rarely accurate, I need to calibrate lenses. And the difference can be very large.
I wonder if the MC versions are just focussing at a different point, and once you test what it is and work out a custom offset if all will be well. Not
...Show more

I just posted a couple SFX200 IR photos which I took with Leica gear and M-lenses this week:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/920070/304#15240397

All lenses which I used had no IR mark. To overcome it even at shallower DoF used at f/4, I moved the focus a bit clockwise. Most lenses have the IR mark sitting between f/2.8 and f/4.0 on the right of the visual light focus. I was always fine with it on 21, 35, 50, and 90 mm lenses which I was using. I found M-mount prime lenses are not too far offset with the IR focus mark than equivalent (D)SLR lenses.



May 29, 2020 at 08:51 AM
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