It's hard to believe people with such illogical, fanatical mob-mentality ideas could possibly be in such a position of authority and power. How they feel he broke the law by doing what hundreds of people do there per day is confusing. How it's "illegal" to fail to give your ID to a common citizen.. a person who is NOT a legal law enforement authority is confusing. How being told it's legal to take photos there by everyone else and then have this federal agent accuse him of breaking the law by taking photos of a tourist area where photos are encouraged is confusing. How egomaniacs on power trips with no mental link to reality gain this level of authority is beyond me.
No, this has nothing to do with "9/11". No, this has nothing to do with "terrorism". No, this has nothing to do with "war". No, this has nothing to do with "security" or "feeling safe". Did the people around him feel threatened? Did he break any laws? Was he acting suspicious? No. He was harrassed and embarrassed and I feel sorry for the guy. Political and 'patriotic' discussions aside (please don't post those opinions here as replies), this guy was treated unfairly as a humble and law-abiding photography student and I'm sure a good portion of the reason for that is his racial descent..
p.1 #3 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
On this note...
I was on Constitution the other day taking a photo of the statue of Nathan Hale (to whom I happen to be related), when an FPS dork came out. At about fifty paces from me, he starts talking into his walkie talkie "(*kksshh*) Yeah, we uh... got a guy out here with a camera." I say, "don't worry, I'm going," at which point he just leaves. No questions for me--good thing I'm not an "evildoer"--just hassling me.
Granted, the statue is in front of the Justice Department, but this was daytime (around noon), I was alone, had been there for literally thirty seconds, and the statue is one of about fifty-thousand photoworthy objects/buildings in DC, which is, incidentally, filled with more camera-toters than I have ever seen in any city.
This is part and parcel of the tradeoff we made with Patriot Acts I & II. When you have half the country scared out of their wits and saying they would trade privacy and liberty for security and "safety," someone's always going to oblige.
End result? We are all suspects now... potential terrorists. Big Brother Is Watching You.
p.1 #4 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Sad, but unfortunately not shocking. I have friends of Middle Eastern descent and this story reads all too familar to me. I do feel sorry for this photographer. His rights were definitely violated and this is not the America that our fore-father's intended. His pictures are poignant, somber, and somewhat disheartening for me. I think he achieved his goal. . . . .
Edited by toonhorse on Oct 04, 2004 at 08:12 AM GMT
Oct 04, 2004 at 10:11 AM
Jeff Hall Offline • • [X]
p.1 #5 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
I'm sure the ENTIRE reason for the actions of the officers is his racial descent. Welcome to war-time.
Like it or not, innocent people get crushed during war. Check the Japanese-Americans during WWII, Commies during the Cold War, etc., etc. Although maddening in our desire for an idealistic society where people aren't profiled, he fits the profile of a person of middle-eastern descent photographing heavily-peopled landmarks for a terrorism strike. This is the method of our enemy; this is what our imperfect governmental agencies must try to prevent. I agree this is a travesty...but if the combined actions of several profiles prevents the death of several people, isn't that worth it? I think the deaths of thousands of civilans, soldiers, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc., are far worse than profiling. We have to walk some line, and the government will go TOO FAR in some ways and NOT FAR ENOUGH in some others, then we will say, "Why weren't they looking for xxxx?"
p.1 #6 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Jeff, good points. Agree that that was probably their reasoning there. I just think it's asinine that he was still wrongly accused of doing something illegal (which was an outright lie) and harrassed after he had gone through all that trouble and after he had explained himself thoroughly.
I've been on the receiving end of this behavior by clueless security officers as well. I'm just a geeky white fool, though. After that, I did my research and know my rights and will not budge for these power-hungry egomaniacs in the future. I'll just ask them to call the police. Isn't there some type of way to turn this around on those who wrongly call the police? Isn't there a law against calling the police and accusing someone of breaking laws when nothing wrong was done? Wasting officers time? I'm sure the police would do nothing but I'm just curious.
p.1 #9 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
I agree with much of what Jeff said, its a shame it has come to this, but this is what it is and if this photo student ended up blowing up those locks, the same people crying foul now would be chastizing the govt. for not doing more before hand. Its a no win situation right now for the cops and the govt. If they are too careful they get railed for taking away liberties, if they arent careful enough they leave the people open to another 9/11, how do you find the balance.
In this case, while certainly feeling sorry for the student, I would have suggested he just give up his ID quickly and it would have gone away. C'mon, I know this sounds like a line, but if you havent done anything wrong you dont need to worry about giving up your ID. It will prove you are not a threat and you dont go onto some watch list when they run a background check.
Think about it, even though he provided all the info for his class project, how easy is it for a terrorist to print up a "class project" on a piece of paper and start to explain that they are a student? If they can learn to fly planes, they can make a fake project sheet. That means absolutely nothing to an officer. Its very easy to be able to "prove' you have a reason to be someplace, so it makes the authorities have to did deeper to be sure.
Now, I'm not saying that any of these guys did not have a power trip. They could have very nicely walked up to him and asked him for some ID because this is the situation and they need to follow up on it. They could have been nice about it and not made him out to be a criminal before asking. They could have not given him the load of crap about breaking laws etc. So its a shame, it should have been handled differently on both sides.
p.1 #10 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
First of all, i'd like to see this thread not get locked. too bad other threads regarding this topic, such as on the People Photog subforum a few weeks ago, were locked. I'd just like to preface with - if you can't discuss photog issues on a photog forum, where can you discuss them?
VWpilot - i think the onus (sp?) rests on the govt/security people to do things in a polite manner. it is based on their action initially will other people react. if someone asked me nicely, sure i'd cooperate. if they are beligerent, well, i do have a copy of my "rights and remedies when stopped or confronted for photography" handout always with me as well as a similar form from the ACLU.
Just in case any of you don't have a copy of this, it is avaliable here
p.1 #11 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
vwpilot wrote:
I agree with much of what Jeff said, its a shame it has come to this, but this is what it is and if this photo student ended up blowing up those locks, the same people crying foul now would be chastizing the govt. for not doing more before hand. etc..
There's no tie between him (or the hundreds of others there) taking photos and him blowing up the bridge. There's no tie between him and those planes. There's nothing.. nothing.. to suggest he had that intent. There's no reason to even bring up "terrorism" in this situation before investigating as these people did. It's that kind of kneejerk reaction and suggestions that there was possible terrorism for no reason that causes problems, really.
p.1 #12 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
As an outsider (to the US) who has lived in a state where terrorism was prevalent (Northern Ireland) you guys are on a slippery slope where rights are ever so slowly eroded until you wake up one day and find that the cure is far far worse that the original disease.
There is a very thin line between democracy and totalitarianism.........
p.1 #13 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
I don't think it was the police fault at all. Probably, some overzealous and overobservant retirees had reported and the police could do anything but follow up. Can happen any time whith anybody, like when you cut somebody off on the highway and they call the highway patroll.
p.1 #14 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Thanks for pointing out this article. For the love of g--. I remember reading about how even the NYC subway forbade photography.... well, sure enough, three weekends ago I saw about 5-7 people taking pictures in the subway station of two musicians with their cell-phone cameras.
If one was a determined terrorist who is trying to plan something, they do not need some complicated massive SLR camera with white lenses. I'm sure they're trained to even mentally jot down enough notes to do damage. This is really going too far.
p.1 #15 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
The things get worse every where, I live in Washington DC metro area. I took hundreds photos of different angle of the Capital building in winter,summer, fall, spring . Say hello the policemen all the time.
Just Saturday last week, there was a FULL moon so I decided to take photos of the Capital with the moon . Bring up my tripod , happily that I found the good parking spot after 1/2 hour driving around.
When just closed the trunk , started walking toward the Capital , not even close the area. Here you are, a policeman showed up, and "You couldn't use the tripod here" , I told him I have been here many times using my tripod. He said "You can go ahead, I will write you $250 ticket".
I was so upset and asked him when it became the law for not using tripod around Capital hill , he said 2001. I know it's not true because since 2001, I got so many photos taken aournd Capital building. But I know there is no way to discuss with him. So I left , felt very bad.
p.1 #16 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
I'm both glad and sorry to see others chiming in with similar experiences. It's sad but it's also interesting to see others having problems. Anh's story is ridiculous. I would now contact a legal authority and ask to be pointed toward the law that prohibits tripod use in that area, just out of curiosity (you never know.. maybe there IS something). At least at that point, you could have ammunition next time an officer on a power-trip harrasses you. If he threatens to write you a ticket at that point, I would put the tripod away and then try to nicely ask which law you were breaking and what specific law the ticket would say you broke. It's worth it to get as much info as possible to avoid breaking any real laws, right?
Also, I'd like to ask again that this really not be turned into a political or "us vs. them" war thread. I simply think these people are being treated unfairly by uninformed uniformed people.
p.1 #17 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
the thing with all of this, is that one is considered guilty until proven innocent and of course, that burden of proof lies within you. too bad they can't make roll around judges that you can summon with 10 min lag time to come to a situation and give a ruling.
p.1 #18 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Gerry Kerr wrote:
As an outsider (to the US) who has lived in a state where terrorism was prevalent (Northern Ireland) you guys are on a slippery slope where rights are ever so slowly eroded until you wake up one day and find that the cure is far far worse that the original disease.
There is a very thin line between democracy and totalitarianism.........
Gerry
I work with scores of people from other nations--the ones to whom I've spoken have all echoed this exact sentiment.
p.1 #19 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
wow this article sickens me.
I work for the counter terrorism part of a very elite government agency, and i have heard of some interesting shit . . . but for this guy to produce papers from school and they still harass him. . . incredible.
If i were him i would have filed a complaint against every officer i came in contact with during this depacle. I would be all up in some one for this, i would write the paper and news agencies.
but i can understand how he felt. . . being young and driving a decent car i have been pulled over many times (8 times in the last year) and the sad thing is only one was for speeding. i have had my car searched, i have been searched and alot of these officers are on a power trip. but now if any one wants to search me i will need to see a warrant same goes for seeing an ID.
p.1 #20 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Can I ask a question.
Just because someone posts something on the web, does this make the "story" true? I have read it and sound possible that it did happen. But like any story it is written by someone's own opinion of the world there is some bias. Were is the objectivity? Is the author 100% right? 50% right?
. Say hello the policemen all the time.