p.6 #1 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
Again - look at Contax G glass - former competitor to Leica, small rangefinder lens construction with AF. Why not using this as a template to develop something for the E-mount? It does not at all need to have a Leica price tag either. I could imagine that decent prime/zoom lenses would be even more successful - or do you think professionals like bigger glass to show off (but why would they use a Sony A7 series camera then in the first place?!).
I believe the reason for the bigger glass is a simple one - unexpected success of the E-mount and the A7 FF series. Manufacturing lines are built to accommodate DSLR lenses, well established DSLR lens designs are out there, so simply those blueprints were used and slightly modified for the E-mount.
In line with your point above, I also think that after a while smaller AF-based glass shows up for the E-mount. ...Show more →
Unlikely Sony can ever get down to Contax G size due to steep incident angle of those lenses. Even the G45 exhibits smeared corners due to this. If Sony sticks with the thick sensor glass (not that it's a bad thing), we will continue to see lens at a much bigger size. The 28/2 has to trade distortion for that good enough sharpness in the corners. And it's not exactly Contax G size either. Correcting for distortion while maintaining good sharpness would be the size of the 35/1.4 to get any economical for Sony.
p.6 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Modern af systems (ie, not screw drive) will preclude tiny lenses. The 35 2.8, flaws, deep vignetting, and all) may be as small as we see. Canon made it with their pancake 40 STM, but they sure had an issue with reliability. And it isn't silent, which Sony is shooting for.
I am hoping the new DDSSM can make smaller lenses possible. But I amnot overly optimistic.
p.6 #3 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The Contax G lenses don't entirely map. Yes, they're AF, but they have a very slow AF and a noisy in-body AF motor.
In addition, only two of the lenses really perform to modern expectations on the A7, the 45mm and 90mm. Maybe the 35mm, but it'd be a tough sell at $1000+.
It's not like the 16mm, 21mm, 28mm or 35-70mm provide a roadmap for Sony to small, performant lenses.
p.6 #4 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Adding OIS, if done well, and Zeiss are a pretty reputable maker (!!) may mean an extra stop for those using 'legacy' a7 bodies, who may not want to ante up for a heavier body with IBIS. And yes, 85mm lenses are a priority zone for some form of stabilization. Using an AF 85/1.8 in low light at a s/speed as though if were an f1.2 is a neat outcome for an a7r user, and that is some understatement.
A 475 gram lens on an a7r gives you around 940 grams of carry weight, and very good balance.
That same lens on an a7II gives you a carry weight of 1075 grams, much like using a 610 gram lens on an a7r, except you never lose body weight. While on weight, the 25/2 is just 75 grams more than the Leica 24/3.8 - with almost two stops in hand.
The 0.8m MFD of the 85mm is shorter than either 85mm Nikkor, any non-macro 85-100mm CY or ZEF, or the G90; and it has more optical complexity than any of them, including the 100MP. To put the new one in some perspective.
p.6 #5 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
philber wrote:
A few comments, as I am coming late to this debate.
- I am puzzled by the coexistence of Batis and Loxia. Do CZ really think there is room for 2 separate MF lines of CZ glass, one assumes with AF and the other one MF? On top of the Zony offerings, and Sony G as well? Sounds rather a lot to me, even before Sigma join the fun...
- My take on the multiple mentions of the Batis being "professional" (and water-resistant as well) is that Sony will soon introduce a water-resistant body. Why on earth otherwise build that into a lens line, if the more vulnerable camera bodies can't hack it?...Show more →
I love the fact that we have the option of both Loxia and Batis. The Loxia being very well implemented MF lenses and optimized for the Sony sensors affords a smaller and lighter lens. The Loxia 50 is a superb lens, and I love using this lens now.
The Batis is wonderful option where AF is a must or we wish to have. I suspect that the later model Sony A9? may well have improved the ability to withstand water/moisture, maybe the A7rII may have improved too.
If the IQ and ergonomics feel right, I will continue sell a few of my M mount glass lenses. I will keep my Mandler classic lenses, 50 Nocti f/1.0 and 75 Lux. Also the WATE, 90 Cron AA and 50 Cron DR.
p.6 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
charles.K wrote:
I love the fact that we have the option of both Loxia and Batis. The Loxia being very well implemented MF lenses and optimized for the Sony sensors affords a smaller and lighter lens. The Loxia 50 is a superb lens, and I love using this lens now.
The Batis is wonderful option where AF is a must or we wish to have. I suspect that the later model Sony A9? may well have improved the ability to withstand water/moisture, maybe the A7rII may have improved too.
If the IQ and ergonomics feel right, I will continue sell a few of my M mount glass lenses. I will keep my Mandler classic lenses, 50 Nocti f/1.0 and 75 Lux. Also the WATE, 90 Cron AA and 50 Cron DR.
Charles, how's the focus feel and focus throw on the Loxia compared to the Lux 50 ASPH? I love the Leica focus tab now, and that can be added. I'm looking for a flatter field small 50. Was thinking of the Cron, but your opinion of the Loxia 50 makes me think .
p.6 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
hiepphotog wrote:
Charles, how's the focus feel and focus throw on the Loxia compared to the Lux 50 ASPH? I love the Leica focus tab now, and that can be added. I'm looking for a flatter field small 50. Was thinking of the Cron, but your opinion of the Loxia 50 makes me think .
Hi Hiep. The Loxia 50 is superb. The feel and throw is excellent, and I'm now keeping it glued to my A7II. The combo feels like when I had the M240 and 50 Lux but with an EVF/LCD and shutter speeds down to 1/5 sec when I need it. So even though it is a f/2, low light is not an issue. The IQ and detail are amazing and web size images really don't illustrate the detail and rendering the lens is capable off.
p.6 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
Again - look at Contax G glass - former competitor to Leica, small rangefinder lens construction with AF. Why not using this as a template to develop something for the E-mount? It does not at all need to have a Leica price tag either. I could imagine that decent prime/zoom lenses would be even more successful - or do you think professionals like bigger glass to show off (but why would they use a Sony A7 series camera then in the first place?!).
I believe the reason for the bigger glass is a simple one - unexpected success of the E-mount and the A7 FF series. Manufacturing lines are built to accommodate DSLR lenses, well established DSLR lens designs are out there, so simply those blueprints were used and slightly modified for the E-mount.
In line with your point above, I also think that after a while smaller AF-based glass shows up for the E-mount. ...Show more →
Excuse my ignorance. But is it the glass, the mount or both that contribute to the weight of a lens. What is the largest contributing factor that makes Leica lenses so light?
The Zeiss FE 35mm f1.4 (good performer or not). Is so large that it instantly makes the "more compact" system argument moot. Aside from the AF motor what is it that prevents Sony from being able to shrink down their high speed lenses? I had assumed this was physics and the mount but I know absolutely nothing about optics.
p.6 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Depends on the lens. For my Minolta 100/2, its the glass itself. For others, its the all metal body. For large, complex designs in high quality bodies, you have lots of elements/groups and an all-metal construction.
p.6 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
arduluth wrote:
The Contax G lenses don't entirely map. Yes, they're AF, but they have a very slow AF and a noisy in-body AF motor.
In addition, only two of the lenses really perform to modern expectations on the A7, the 45mm and 90mm. Maybe the 35mm, but it'd be a tough sell at $1000+.
It's not like the 16mm, 21mm, 28mm or 35-70mm provide a roadmap for Sony to small, performant lenses.
The 35mm f2 Contax doesn't pair well with the a7r, despite being a planar and not a Biogon. It has massive field curvature, so at f2 it doesn't have much bokeh (more like f4-5.6 honestly), and the edges are smeared. It's super sharp in the center but edges not so much until f11, where it still has a mid zone dip
I bought one for $300 and it's fine at that price, but other than being compact and having some Zeissy centers it's not very useful as a general lens, the Sony Zeiss 35mm 2.8 beats it in all areas, and despite being a stop slower it gives more subject isolation.
That said the Contax has some interesting character I suppose, there must be a reason I continue to use it
p.6 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
There is no way short of massive in-camera correction or some other innovation (curved sensors?) to get back down to Contax G size and performance. One simple reason: the shift from film to digital. Sensors don't like oblique light rays, which film didn't mind. Plus, we have grown used to pixel peeping, and ever higher resolution requires ever better correction, which goes against small/light lenses. Unfortunate, but that is how it is. And I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.
p.6 #12 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Dave, some general comments: first factor is camera design, whether D/SLR or RF, and Sony FE has its special needs WRT maximum beam angles designers consider acceptable - it is more attuned to DSLR designs than RF lenses. Designs for the M mount cannot be compared with either DSLR or FE, and it gets technical very fast so best not to enter that door. The fast FE is a 12/8 design - more complex than the others listed (9/5 and 10/7), and it alone has AF in your list, and a larger barrel is heavier.
The L35 is an f2 design, so can be much lighter and smaller, and the other two are of course M mount lenses. DSLR lenses of this configuration vary around a central weight of almost exactly the FE 35/1.4 weight. In general, smaller lighter lenses place more emphasis on size constraints than on 'optical effort' or corrective power. Better lenses are larger, all things being equal, and expectations are very high these days, see Sigma's FF ARTs, the 35 is 13/11 and 665 grams.
When you have a spare half hour, I recommend this video for a recent chat with Hubert Nasse of Zeiss, who goes over many of the factors involved in lens design, the huge importance of computer design, special glass types to constrain color dispersion and attain higher refraction. cheers.
[Hubert would also have tested the prototypes of the new Batis lenses, and we may hear from him about those sometime.]
p.6 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
philber wrote:
There is no way short of massive in-camera correction or some other innovation (curved sensors?) to get back down to Contax G size and performance. One simple reason: the shift from film to digital. Sensors don't like oblique light rays, which film didn't mind. Plus, we have grown used to pixel peeping, and ever higher resolution requires ever better correction, which goes against small/light lenses. Unfortunate, but that is how it is. And I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.
I am quite impressed by the FE 2/28 which is very small and just 200g. It has severe distortion but for my nature images this doesn't matter and it has sharper corners than the heavier, bigger and slower Zeiss Distagon 2.8/28.
When it matters I can correct it easily and pay with a little resolution for it.
I think this is a very good trade for the very small and light lens which is very good in those aspects which matter to me. But I also think that it's great to have a choice between a very small Sony FE lens and a bigger more robust Zeiss lens which is probably even sharper but I would bet it has not as nice bokeh.
Regarding the "failure" of the Touit line: I think Zeiss made some mistakes and they were unlucky with the timing
They released two lenses which had counterparts which were among the best lenses in the Sony lineup (4/10-18 and 1.8/35)
They released the lenses just a few months before Sony released the a7 series and all the more demanding photographers with the deeper pockets quickly changed from the Nex line to the a7. Just remember how crowded our Nex Thread used to be in it's more glorious days, nearly everyone change to a a7 camera.
The lenses used a slower (and probably more robust) AF motor.
I think the Batis line will have a much better chance of succes because they fit right in the gaps of the Sony lineup (well at least the 1.8/85), the a7 series is very popular at the moment and many of it's users are willing to pay a lot of money for good lenses.
It will be interesting to see how the AF and IS of the 85 compare that of the Sony lenses.
p.6 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
As far as I can see, the Batis is pretty much the successor to the Touit line, technically (AF), aesthetically, and in terms of market positioning. And I mean that as a compliment.
p.6 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Anybody else think the digital focus scale is ridiculous? Just one more thing to break?
Now, a digital focus scale could mean that focus distance / backfocus / whatever could be user-adjusted (or the scale could change automatically when you mounted to a crop body) to actually be accurate. But since you know for sure that such would not be included on lenses this affordable...
p.6 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
somebody at zeiss is working a full time job coming up with names for everything... otis, loxia, batis, touit. back in the day it was good ol planar, sonanr, distagon, etc, didn't need new names for decades.
btw i have a good naming system maybe they can use and save some overhead
p.6 #18 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
joelRichards wrote:
Zeiss wants you to buy both so they kept the filter size the same. Same thing with the Loxia line up. It will be interesting to see which focal lengths fall under Loxia vs Batis in the future. I suspect with the larger filter size we'll see either a 18mm or 135mm Batis next.
hope for a 135mm
I think I'll go for the 25/2 since I am not liking the outcome from the 28 too much, I would like a "wider FE55" but the 28 it's not it. I would have preferred the 28mm focal lenght though.
don't think we'll see a 85/1.8 by sony anytime soon, they're splitting duties and ultimately it's a good thing.
p.6 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
the good news about this batis line, is that now the system can be appealing for most photographers, as the lineup has good quality offers throughout the range.
FE is here to stay.
p.6 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Sony's 85mm - when it comes - may be a companion lens to the FE 35/1.4 as an 85/1.4 lens. That's what I would do in their shoes, users will already have a top 85/1.8 lens with AF and OIS, in the (full Zeiss) Batis 85/1.8. That Sony 85mm would be a Sigma competitor, and would give their design team something to shoot for - a challenge, if you will.
.