Archive 2015 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.13 #1 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
If the Loxia 35mm does not have what it takes for 50 Mpixels I would worry about everything with a wider focal length. How can you expect the Batis 25mm f/2 to be better given that it is the same price and has AF. In the ZM line the ZM 2,8/25 cost 20% more than the 2,0/35. So for the Batis 25mm f/2 to better either a lot was left on the table with Loxia or it really won't be any better or possibly worse.
I think there was quite a bit left on the table with the Loxia 35. If you look at the MTF curves for the lens, which you can find here: www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_loxia/loxia_235.pdf you will see that the tangential lines fall sharply from about 17mm from the centre. This indicates that the edges and corners will not have the same high resolution as the centre (which is excellent for the centre part of the frame. I have no doubts that that centre of the frame can hold up to 50mp well, but the edges and corners could be quite a bit better, but this doesn't matter for all compositions and it seems from samples to be worse for infinity focussed shots. This pattern of sharpness would have very close to zero impact on video shot with the lens, but can affect some landscape type stills shots. Not all of those shots by any means as sharp corners and edges are only needed on a minority of shots. Still, IMO, while this lens would be excellent for video it could have been designed for better stills shooting if that were more of a goal for the Loxia series of lenses.
p.13 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
bjornthun wrote:
FBW is quiet on the Sony/Zeiss FE lenses but not with the Touits. They must have different generation AF motors, I guess. With these lenses I find the MF experience very good, and better than Nikon Ai-S, and almost on par with Nikon Ai and many Leica R. If an MF lens is well fampened, I find it should have a long focusing throw. Fbw on Sony/Zeiss ticks these two important boxes: they are well dampened and provide a long focus throw, but I also like good MF lenses. None of them are excluded for me.
Zeiss hasn't actually released any AF FE lenses yet. The Sony lenses are indeed better than the Touits, but the Sony e-mount lenses were always better in that regard. Touits are the only example we have so far of a wholly Zeiss-designed lens. Is there any reason to believe it'll be better on the new lenses than the Touits? I'm not seeing anything on their website that gives that indication. But I haven't invested a lot of time researching it, so maybe I'm wrong.
p.13 #3 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
85mm being a hot spot for many photographers with an interest in small cameras, I expect a companion to the 35/1.4 in an 85/1.4, and not too far away either - lens speed being the differentiation factor from the Batis and a similar look to the 35/1.4. Neither Zeiss nor Sony are given to flights of fancy, they just want to turn out top lenses that still feel not too bad on the cameras. So no f1.2, I think.
You'd hope for better results than for the Touits, FLM. Zeiss have the ability to do almost anything, how much of their skill finds its way into these very important lenses for them, we have to wait and see. They have very different users to please here than with the Touits, and they are out there near the beginning of FE. And much has been learned about the sensors' needs. The reasonable RRP suggests they feel they can sell many of these lenses, and beginnings being delicate times, expectations are high. Mine are anyway. ;-)
p.13 #4 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
freaklikeme wrote:
Zeiss hasn't actually released any AF FE lenses yet. The Sony lenses are indeed better than the Touits, but the Sony e-mount lenses were always better in that regard. Touits are the only example we have so far of a wholly Zeiss-designed lens. Is there any reason to believe it'll be better on the new lenses than the Touits? I'm not seeing anything on their website that gives that indication. But I haven't invested a lot of time researching it, so maybe I'm wrong.
I hope and expect that the Touit series has been a learning experience for Zeiss. I certainly hope that the Batis series will get a newer generation of AF motors than the Touit line, i.e. the same silent kind that Sony has.
Ps. When I write Sony/Zeiss, I mean the Zeiss labelled lenses that Sony makes as opposed to those that Zeiss are responsible for alone.
p.13 #5 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
AFAIAC, the noise level of the AF is a very low priority when I decide on a lens. Besides, it is not like we had a surfeit of choice. In 25mm and 85mm focal lengths, with those specifications, there are no alternatives with real AF (considering that Canon-cum-Metabones is too slow to be considered "real AF"). So, sound or no sound, if we want AF lenses in these FLs, nowhere but Zeiss....
My order is in for the 25.
p.13 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I love the Loxia's and would have been very happy if Zeiss two new entries had been in that product family. I'm also someone who is very comfortable with both MF and AF so if the Batis brothers are great lenses AF will be fine. On my Canon and Fuji systems I use both MF and AF lenses so I will do the same on my Sony system.
I have my Batis' on order so we'll see. Now that the Sony line has filled out their primes I may start to sell of some of my Canon primes. The Canon are still being used but primarily with their zooms which are excellent. Between their quality and the AF speed on the 1DX and 5DIII these are still best for event/sports work I do.
p.13 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I'm happy the 25 and 85 are AF; fast lenses and people lend themselves to AF
But I'd really likes loxia f4 18 mm or even wider and slower: a higher quality exit enabled alternative to the voigtlander ultra wides, more compact than the good FE ultra wide zoom..
p.13 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
What? A-mount CZ85/1.4 and CZ24/2 are amazing.
philber wrote:
AFAIAC, the noise level of the AF is a very low priority when I decide on a lens. Besides, it is not like we had a surfeit of choice. In 25mm and 85mm focal lengths, with those specifications, there are no alternatives with real AF (considering that Canon-cum-Metabones is too slow to be considered "real AF"). So, sound or no sound, if we want AF lenses in these FLs, nowhere but Zeiss....
My order is in for the 25.
p.13 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
philip_pj wrote:
You'd hope for better results than for the Touits, FLM. Zeiss have the ability to do almost anything, how much of their skill finds its way into these very important lenses for them, we have to wait and see. They have very different users to please here than with the Touits, and they are out there near the beginning of FE. And much has been learned about the sensors' needs. The reasonable RRP suggests they feel they can sell many of these lenses, and beginnings being delicate times, expectations are high. Mine are anyway. ;-)
bjornthun wrote:
I hope and expect that the Touit series has been a learning experience for Zeiss. I certainly hope that the Batis series will get a newer generation of AF motors than the Touit line, i.e. the same silent kind that Sony has.
Ps. When I write Sony/Zeiss, I mean the Zeiss labelled lenses that Sony makes as opposed to those that Zeiss are responsible for alone.
I hope you're both right. Not because I care so much about these lenses specifically (I'm still, perhaps foolishly, hopeful we'll see a Sonnar 85/2 in the Loxia line) but because I really want them to make a Batis MP 50/2.8 with the same (or better) performance standards as the Touit. I'm fairly certain the complexity of the internal movements would prohibit a cost and size effective full-manual solution, but for a coma-free, excellently corrected, flat-field, reasonably fast normal that can go from infinity to 1:1 without increasing length or losing much in the way of quality and with it's biggest sin being vignetting, I would (and already do) work well outside of my comfort zone. As long as it still has a manual focus ring, turning that ring being quieter than it is on the Touit is just a bonus.
p.13 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The Touit 50/2.8 Makro Planar also has very much better correction of LoCA than the Zeiss 100/2 Makro Planar. CA is a non-issue with the Touit 50/2.8 Makro. So a remake of the 100/2 Makro Planar would be in order.
p.13 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I had the exact same thoughts about the Sonnar 85/2 in ZM, you probably know the history. It seem far more likely Zeiss are holding back Loxia development - for which they had promised five lenses - but none of us even suspected the Batis move, a secret kept tight against their chest, more to keep the competition in the dark than to bamboozle customers.
So, what now? Loxia are looking very much a combination of video friendliness and 'old school' Leica/CZ, high priced and finely made, lenses made for a different form of photography. This sounds like a perfect vehicle for a really good Distagon or two, and most likely a 100mm, aimed at the kind of users who bought these lenses in ZE/F, so there could be some familiarity waiting in FE for them. Size is a big issue, but Sony are softening up people with 600 gram lenses, and 450-500 grams is pretty standard for M lenses at f2 at 90mm. The Batis 25mm shows what can be done even in a complex wide lens, at 335 grams.
Zeiss knows there is a solid market for these lenses in the soon-to-arrive high Mp era, but they also know these clients know lenses inside out. They must be itching to do a 50MP/100MP (LoCA free with Otus/135 technology and maybe not a Planar) but may be seeking reassurance of likely market acceptance in FF mirrorless for such lenses before going ahead.
If Batis is more like the FE zooms/macro, clearly specced and made to 'match Canon' and be 'working tools' with a Zeiss twist, there is the separation required, one that Zeiss would endorse: you want our best in FE, you can pay Loxia prices and turn your own focus and aperture rings.
And competition. Sony and Zeiss are 'competitors' in a very different way to Zeiss <-> C/N. A 100MP must be very different from Sony's yet to be evaluated 'more pure' 90mm Macro, so an updated field 100mm of very useful range (1:2) again must be on the short list, to complement their own 'portrait' Batis 85 as well. Sony may be happy to see Zeiss do a Loxia 21mm too, it's a difficult FL zone for them but a Zeiss specialty, and wider would fit with the Batis 25mm and Sony's fine value 28/2. Sony will be chuffed at the reception to the 35/1.4 and may be embarking on more such lenses at 50mm and 85mm. The FE55 is drifting down in price.
Sony and Zeiss are developing internal competition for each other and indeed for themselves, lol. You can now shoot 35mm FL with six lenses in the system right now, even leaving aside the big video zoom. Already you see, in this very thread, user confusion and decision fatigue. The show now moves longer and wider. This play has just begun, and the plot is delicately poised for the next thrilling instalment. ;-)
p.13 #12 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Just one word of comment to your excellent summary, Philip. We should not assume that, because Zeiss have released LOCA-free lenses (Otus, 135 APO), all their new lenses will be LOCA-free. To wit: their brand new, high end, high price ZM 35 f:1.4 is far from that, superlative though it is. Loxia being very close, philosophically, to ZM, I would not hold too high hopes for LOCA-free Loxia. Though, of course, I do hope to be proven wrong.
p.13 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I've got the 25 and 85 on pre-order b/c I think that those 2 foc len may make a great 2 lens travel kit for me. I've always respected Zeiss and appreciate the AF. However, pascal at 'dearSusan' (I hold both in fairly high regard) just gave their 2 cents and made this comment:
"To be perfectly honest, my hopes of a pleasant rendition with the BATIS 25/2 are not high"
does anyone with any experience with zeiss or knowledge of the lens formula, have any way of supporting/rejecting that speculation?
these aren't small nor cheap, so is it even possible for Zeiss to deliver a less than stellar lens? (have they ever - when they weren't trying to build tiny or affordable?)
p.13 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Escarlino,
I understand the desire to get new kit early, but if you've got these kinds of questions why not wait until we've seen how these lenses perform before you order them?
p.13 #15 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Jeff Kott wrote:
Escarlino,
I understand the desire to get new kit early, but if you've got these kinds of questions why not wait until we've seen how these lenses perform before you order them?
Jeff
brilliant response, of course, why pre-order anything?
why talk about anything?
why reply to my question with a distraction.
I'm simply wondering, based on other people's experience either with zeiss or knowledge of the lens formula, why someone would make the statement he did - in the hopes of learning something about either zeiss or lens construction.
naturally, once the reviews start coming out, I may choose to cancel my pre-order - but there's certainly been plenty of discussion about the lenses already and this is just a question......
p.13 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
bjornthun wrote:
The Touit 50/2.8 Makro Planar also has very much better correction of LoCA than the Zeiss 100/2 Makro Planar. CA is a non-issue with the Touit 50/2.8 Makro. So a remake of the 100/2 Makro Planar would be in order.
I just hope if they do this, they put a focus limiter on the darn thing. When I reviewed the Touit 50, I found it to be a really exceptional lens. It's utterly brilliant optically. Unfortunately, the IF meant that working distance at 1:1 is very small, and the lack of a focus limiter made AF virtually impossible when shooting close up.
Apr 27, 2015 at 12:33 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.13 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
ecarlino wrote:
I've got the 25 and 85 on pre-order b/c I think that those 2 foc len may make a great 2 lens travel kit for me. I've always respected Zeiss and appreciate the AF. However, pascal at 'dearSusan' (I hold both in fairly high regard) just gave their 2 cents and made this comment:
"To be perfectly honest, my hopes of a pleasant rendition with the BATIS 25/2 are not high"
does anyone with any experience with zeiss or knowledge of the lens formula, have any way of supporting/rejecting that speculation?
these aren't small nor cheap, so is it even possible for Zeiss to deliver a less than stellar lens? (have they ever - when they weren't trying to build tiny or affordable?) ...Show more →
It is right there in the article. Pascal is speculating that the bokeh will not be very good because of the 4 double sided apshericals. Certainly lenses with one or two aspherical elements can have very nice bokeh (e.g., the Z* 35 f/1.4, the Leica M 50 f/1.4 ASPH, and the Sony/Zeiss 135 f/1.8) IMO. The only lens I can think of with very nice bokeh with more than two aspherical elements is the 35 f/2 Sonnar in the RX1--it has three. That lens may not be a very good guide for interchangeable lenses, however, because it is built so differently.
So that is the source of Pascal's guess about the rendering. Notice he isn't saying that he thinks it won't be sharp. He clearly does and thinks it will be sharp across the frame, so many people might like the lens a lot for those properties. For example, a lot of people like the Sigma 35 f/1.4 Art. It is sharp across the frame and that is what a lot of people want. Personally, I think it has a boring rendering and quite bad bokeh. So I don't like the lens, but that is just my opinion I know a lot of people like the lens and that is fine. I think Pascal is saying that he thinks the Batis 25 might have a look a lot like what I don't like about the Sigma 35.
Keep in mind almost all the Sony or Sony/Zeiss lenses for E mount have had at least three asphericals. The 28 f/2 has three, the 35 f/1.4 has three, the 35 f/2.8 has three, and the 55 f/1.8 has four. IMO, the 28 f/2. 35 f/2.8, and 55 f/1.8 all have pretty average bokeh. It can be bad at times but it is decent much of the time. I never find it to be a lot better than other lenses, however. The 35 f/1.4 might have bokeh to notice. From the samples I have seen it has quite nice bokeh in many situations, but I think it is too early to tell (at least for me) just how good it is. We can hope from this lens, however, that the bokeh and rendering of the 25 f/2 will be very nice. The 25 just has one more aspherical than the 35 f/1.4 and I think that lens does have a nice rendering. Of course this is all speculation based hearing about the lens formula (I don't think Zeiss has published a diagram yet), so it all needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
p.13 #18 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
It is right there in the article. Pascal is speculating that the bokeh will not be very good because of the 4 double sided apshericals. Certainly lenses with one or two aspherical elements can have very nice bokeh (e.g., the Z* 35 f/1.4, the Leica M 50 f/1.4 ASPH, and the Sony/Zeiss 135 f/1.8) IMO. The only lens I can think of with very nice bokeh with more than two aspherical elements is the 35 f/2 Sonnar in the RX1--it has three. That lens may not be a very good guide for interchangeable lenses, however, because it is built so differently.
So that is the source of Pascal's guess about the rendering. Notice he isn't saying that he thinks it won't be sharp. He clearly does and thinks it will be sharp across the frame, so many people might like the lens a lot for those properties. For example, a lot of people like the Sigma 35 f/1.4 Art. It is sharp across the frame and that is what a lot of people want. Personally, I think it has a boring rendering and quite bad bokeh. So I don't like the lens, but that is just my opinion I know a lot of people like the lens and that is fine. I think Pascal is saying that he thinks the Batis 25 might have a look a lot like what I don't like about the Sigma 35....Show more →
Steve, thank you for your thoughtful and educated reply. For 10 yrs I was a trinity zoom guy and only in the past 2 yrs have been getting up to speed on primes - now I'm starting to see the different styles - thanks for your comparison to the Sigma - a look I'm familiar with (owned / sold that).
btw, have you noticed that there a lot of 'onions' in the FE 35/1.4 OOF highlights ? I wasn't expecting that.
p.13 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I am Pascal's blog partner, and I have posted there my response to his article. Pascal owns and shoots a Zeiss Distagon ZF 25 f:2.0. So his thinking that he won't buy the Batis should be understood in context, meaning that he doesn't think the Batis will be good enough for him to sell his existing lens, take a loss, and buy the other one new.
Despite his being my blog-partner and dear friend, I have a 25 on order for the reasons I list in my response. The main one being that I have no recollection of any Zeiss lens being a disppointment upon release (plese note, this does not extend to Sony-Zeiss, which are basically Sony lenses), or not competitive. So I am confident enough to buy a Batis 25 sight unseen. Then Pascal and I can have a "shoot-out of the 25s", which sould be fun. My only question is whether I am confident enough to sell my Leica Elmarit R 28 v.II, in itself a very good lens indeed, in anticipation of the Batis being better...
p.13 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
philber wrote:
I am Pascal's blog partner, and I have posted there my response to his article. Pascal owns and shoots a Zeiss Distagon ZF 25 f:2.0. So his thinking that he won't buy the Batis should be understood in context, meaning that he doesn't think the Batis will be good enough for him to sell his existing lens, take a loss, and buy the other one new.
Despite his being my blog-partner and dear friend, I have a 25 on order for the reasons I list in my response. The main one being that I have no recollection of any Zeiss lens being a disppointment upon release (plese note, this does not extend to Sony-Zeiss, which are basically Sony lenses), or not competitive. So I am confident enough to buy a Batis 25 sight unseen. Then Pascal and I can have a "shoot-out of the 25s", which sould be fun. My only question is whether I am confident enough to sell my Leica Elmarit R 28 v.II, in itself a very good lens indeed, in anticipation of the Batis being better......Show more →
Philber - thanks for your reply - your shots have always impressed (and I think you've spoken well of the 35/2.8 - which I think is an underappreciated lens given its goals).
your rationale for the pre-order of the 25/2 matches mine - while the 35/2.8 had an engineering priority of 'tiny' and therefore tradeoffs, I don't see any 'compromises' being made re: size/price with the 25/2 - but b/c of my respect for you and pascal and your site in general, his words gave me pause. my guess was that it was going to be typically good zeiss b/c it is their design/priorities.
and while the FE 35/1.4 seems perfectly lovely WO, up-close, I'm not sure it's as exceptional stopped down at distance (don't get me wrong, still great, just not off the charts). I keep reviewing photos trying to determine.
I've been hoping sony or zeiss would deliver lenses similar to the goldilocks 55/1.8 - a great compromise of size/price/IQ and while sharp and corrected it may lack a bit in 'rendering' - I really love everything about that lens, except its focal len (just not my cup of tea). so, I may get what I've been looking for and pascal may keep his existing 25/2 - at least we're getting some nice choices now!
thank you again for taking the time to reply and great work on DearSusan!
