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Archive 2015 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)

  
 
BayernFan
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p.2 #1 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


indeed. i've purchased quite a few items from KEH. their rating system has always proved to be accurate and reliable. the piece of mind is worth the price.

unfortunately they have none of the items i need in stock currently. the hunt begins!

thanks for your help butchM.



Feb 03, 2015 at 11:58 PM
Chris S.
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p.2 #2 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


BayernFan wrote:
The setup I currently have in mind is a PB-5 Bellows Unit (not as sought after as the PB-4), PS-4 Slide Copy Adapter (allows uncut rolls to be pushed through), PK-13 Extension Tube (to give the digital body clearance), and a Micro 55mm f/2.8 AIS. Now it's just a matter of finding it all on the cheap.


This seems like a solid, rational setup. And each item is a sensible investment--if you ever decide to sell any of this, you'll probably get most of your money back.

I would raise a question mark about whether the PK-13 extension tube is actually needed, though I know that this requirement is widely reported. And I don't have experience with the PB-5 bellows. But the same is also widely reported for the PB-6 bellows, which I have a lot of experience with. On the PB-6, there is a workaround, which I prefer to adding a tube. I wrote a detailed description of it here, on a macro forum. You might try this trick, and buy an extension tube only if you still find you need it.

The main reasons that PB-4 bellows (and other Nikon bellows systems) have retained value is that they work really well, provide capability not found in cheaper bellows, have systems of components that work together, and--though they remain very useful for macro and copy work--are no longer made. There are a lot of cheap bellows being made today, but they tend to lack important features, such as moveable rear standards and fore/aft movement without changing the bellows draw. These features may not matter much for copy work, but they can be very important for macro work. Novoflex makes a nice bellows, but it's much more expensive than a used Nikon bellows. Collectors of vintage equipment do likely play a role, but I'd suggest that this role is likely small. Many more of us purchase Nikon bellows systems to get work done with them, so the market price is probably determined mostly by functional use.

As you may know, the reason the PB-5 is less sought after than the PB-4 is that is lacks swing/tilt capability--which you don't care about for copy work. It's also somewhat less adjustable fore/aft, but you needn't care about this, either.

An older, often inexpensive bellows that is respected in the macro community is offered buy-it-now for $40 in eBay listing 181655947194. Similar bellows go by a number of names, and those names sometimes designate quite different bellows units--so it seems safer to simply point out an example item. Note that it is tall, so there is plenty of clearance for the camera without the addition of an extension tube. It also has front and rear standards that can both be moved. It would, however, require the purchase of adapters to make it work with your Nikon D610 and macro lens. But this shouldn't be difficult or expensive.

Your choice of lens seems sound. This said, back in the film days, I often had duplicates made of my slides by labs using pretty much the setup you are considering. The dupes were never quite as good as the originals. Was the problem in the lens, the film, or what? I never knew, but common wisdom in those days was that dupes simply could never be quite as good as originals. It seemed simple reality, in the analog age, and we just accepted it.

I have a Nikon Coolscan 4000 ED scanner and SF-210 slide feeder, which I've used for several years. I've also sent slides out for drum scanning, and found the drum scans and Coolscan scans nearly identical. (Though I've been told that there are better drum scanners than the one used by the lab I sent my slides to. But with both methods I've tried, the film grains are resolved--so I question how much better another drum scanner would perform.) I've never duplicated slides with my cameras, because I carried the memory of this being sub-optimal from the film days. But not long ago, I got to wondering if, with today's cameras and top-quality repro lenses, camera-shot slides might be better than scans. Desktop scanners are slow, while DSLR's are fast. Film is not flat, so if I shot several frames with the camera, I could focus-stack and get the entire piece of film in focus. And my Kodachrome slides have more dynamic range than the scanners could capture; with a camera, I could use conservative HDR techniques to capture both shadows and highlights.

Since I already have the bellows for macro work, and also for macro work, have top-quality lenses originally designed for film copying (such as the Printing Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 and APO-Rodagon-D 1x 1:1 75mm f/4), I got to wondering if these might let me raise my film digitization to a higher order. Just today, my Nikon PS-6 film copy attachment came in. So BayernFan, you and I are both about to embark on similar quests.

Good luck to you! And please let us know what you learn and how you fare.

Cheers,

--Chris




Edited on Feb 05, 2015 at 03:01 AM · View previous versions



Feb 04, 2015 at 01:36 AM
BayernFan
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p.2 #3 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


Chris,

First let me say thank you for the detailed and informative response.

Regarding the attachment of a modern digital body to a PB-4/5/6 bellows, I have heard a couple reports of damage to the DSLR internals by mounting the body directly to the bellow (specifically the cpu contact pins). I do not know how valid these claims are, but an extension tube seems like a cheap insurance against it. I believe It also allows me to mount the body without having to utilize the portrait orientation trick.

Please keep me apprised of your film digitization trials as I am very interested to see the results you obtain.



Feb 04, 2015 at 02:24 PM
rw11
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p.2 #4 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


older, cheaper bodies can have those issues if forced; the D610 will be fiine


Feb 04, 2015 at 04:19 PM
alvit
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p.2 #5 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


This IMHO it's much better


Wolverine F2D Super 20MP 4-In-1 Film to Digital Converter



Feb 04, 2015 at 09:01 PM
Keith B.
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p.2 #6 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


+1 on the idea of being able to leave your duping setup completely 'built'; all you do is attach the camera and go.
I've got the PB-4 bellows, PS-4 slide holder(which also fits on a PB-5 bellows), and the Apo-Rodagon 75mm 1:1. lens. I got the Rodagon for under $200 used.



Feb 04, 2015 at 09:50 PM
Keith B.
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p.2 #7 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


BayernFan wrote:
The setup I currently have in mind is a PB-5 Bellows Unit (not as sought after as the PB-4), PS-4 Slide Copy Adapter (allows uncut rolls to be pushed through), PK-13 Extension Tube (to give the digital body clearance), and a Micro 55mm f/2.8 AIS. Now it's just a matter of finding it all on the cheap.


You shouldn't need the PK-13 to mount the camera to the bellows, if the bellows has the 90º mount rotator that the PB-4 has; in any case, it'll probably provide too much extension for a 55mm mounted on the bellows. My D800 mounts to the PB-4 without extensions.




Feb 04, 2015 at 09:55 PM
BayernFan
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p.2 #8 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


Keith,

Do you have a lot of experience photographing film/slides? What is your favorite lens for the task?

Understood on no need for extension tube.



Feb 04, 2015 at 10:25 PM
Chris S.
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p.2 #9 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


BayernFan,

I don’t know if it’s Keith’s favorite lens for digitizing film, but he mentioned the “Apo-Rodagon 75mm 1:1 lens.” This is the same lens I called the “APO-Rodagon-D 1x 1:1 75mm f/4.” (You need to be a bit careful, because Rodenstock makes a very similar-sounding lens, the “Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon-D 2x 75mm f/4.5,” which is designed for 2x (aka 1:2) magnification. And of course you’ll be shooting at 1x, aka 1:1). These lenses were designed for photographing film, so they should be pretty good at it. I’ve used mine for general macro work (though not film, so far), and am impressed with it. My Printing Nikkor 105mm is better—and also designed for film duplication, but it’s a much more expensive lens, and not easy to find.

But of course, there are lots of other lenses that should work pretty well. If you want to immerse yourself in data, check out Mark Goodman’s lens tests at http://coinimaging.com/macro_lens_tests.html . One section of his site that should be of interest to you is “Lens test hall of fame”—just select a magnification of 1x. Another section, which has much more detail on each lens, is “New lens tests.” In that section, you might want to start with the lens type “Repro/duplication lens.” But you probably will also want to review “bellows lens,” “enlarging lens,” and “macro lens.” While Mark’s wide and careful testing is a huge and useful contribution, I’d mention two caveats: One is that—I believe—his testing is done on DX (APS-C) cameras (Nikon D200 and D300 bodies)—whereas you will be shooting full frame. The other is that, so far as I know, Mark has tested just one copy of most lenses. I’ve done quite a bit of lens testing myself—with particular emphasis in comparing multiple copies of a given model—and know from this that variation from one specimen to another is very real. So when I look at even well-conducted tests like Mark’s, I wonder, “What if he had a great copy of lens A, and a mediocre or bad copy of lens B?” Just something to be aware of--that we cannot consider even well-conducted tests of single lenses as perfectly exensible to all lenses of that model.

One thing that comes to mind, which I expect to be important, is flatness of field. Regular photographic lenses don’t need a flat field, because the world isn’t particularly flat. But film is pretty flat. And dedicated macro lenses—as well as repro/duplicating lenses, enlarging lenses, and, I suspect, most bellows lenses—are designed for flat field work. This is because they’re often used to photograph flat subjects. The classic use of the micro Nikkor 55 f/2.8, which you are considering, is copy stand work--photographing paintings, printed materials, and similar things.

BTW, Keith's point that the extension tube may actually hurt you is well-taken. A 55mm lens doesn't need much extension to produce 1x (it needs 55mm, but 55mm from which part of the lens is a bit complicated). Your bellows, cranked back to its smallest extension, may be pretty close to this. Adding an extension tube may well give you so much distance between sensor and lens that you won't be able to "see" the entire slide or film image. On the other hand--and I'm writing this without personal experience with that particular lens or bellows--you may be able to reverse-mount the 55mm macro inside the front of the bellows. Some Nikon bellows, such as my PB-6, were designed to permit this with some micro-Nikkors. This can be a nice approach, and decreases the minimum bellows draw.

Cheers,

--Chris



Feb 05, 2015 at 02:44 AM
rw11
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p.2 #10 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


Keith B. wrote:
You shouldn't need the PK-13 to mount the camera to the bellows, if the bellows has the 90º mount rotator that the PB-4 has; in any case, it'll probably provide too much extension for a 55mm mounted on the bellows. My D800 mounts to the PB-4 without extensions.



just checked my PB-6 and it cannot rotate the body - you have to leave it at 90o, aka portrait orientation - I put the slide in sideways to match



Feb 09, 2015 at 06:32 PM
Chris S.
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p.2 #11 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


rw11 wrote:
just checked my PB-6 and it cannot rotate the body - you have to leave it at 90o, aka portrait orientation - I put the slide in sideways to match


How odd. My PB-6 can rotate the body to horizontal with my D200, D700, and D7100 bodies. Which body are you finding can't rotate? What portion of the body is hanging up?

--Chris



Feb 09, 2015 at 06:39 PM
rw11
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p.2 #12 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


D610 - I am not finding any facility for body rotation on the back end of the PB-6 however - it is not an issue of the body hanging up.

huh! p. 7 of the PB-6 owners manual says I should be able to rotate the body after it is attached - it refers to a spring catch that locks it, and I eventually realized that the lever I thought was used to mount the bellows on the body like the button one uses to mount a lens is what allows the body to rotate. Thx



Feb 09, 2015 at 07:39 PM
BayernFan
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p.2 #13 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


rw11, let us know if you are satisfied with the results. please share some samples as well. send me a PM if you'd rather email.


Feb 10, 2015 at 12:54 AM
rw11
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p.2 #14 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


so far I've only copied a slide that had a very dark figure against a snow field & can't tell if the digital copy is as good as the K-64 original (or can be made as good or better)


Feb 10, 2015 at 01:42 AM
Keith B.
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p.2 #15 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


I have used the Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8 and 55/3.5[not reversed] for this job on an improvised setup utilizing extension tubes---camera on a copy stand looking downwards on to a slide set on top of a light box. The 55 Micros seemed to give good results. Shot at f/8 and f/11 and felt I was still seeing the film grains resolved.
I acquired the Apo-Rodagon 75mm, then the PB-4 bellows in order to have a always-available, no-assembly-required slide copy setup.
Note: In my experience, all of these lenses take a pretty big hit from diffraction when used a stops smaller than f/8.



Feb 12, 2015 at 03:59 AM
rw11
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p.2 #16 · Copying 35mm Negatives with a DSLR (Lens question)


I have a few hassy 2.25" negs I'd like to do - they obviously won't fit in my PS-6 holder. Any ideas?


Feb 13, 2015 at 06:54 PM
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