p.42 #3 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
beetlephoto wrote:
So, I confirm infinity is now off with my A7rM on my calibrated Hawks v3 + noctilux combo. Infinity is now at approx 10m on the focus ring of the lens, which corresponds to the sensor now being about 0.2mm further back than before the mod (measured with calipers so +/-0.05 accuracy mm I'd say).
While I personally don't mind as I can shim my Metabones adapter, and can adjust infinity on the Hawks v3 adapter, I thought it might be worth sharing. Again I'm sure Kolari can and will adjust the infinity if you provide them with a lens.
Have you noticed the infinity setting being off on any other M-mount lenses after the change to the sensor stack? Anyone noticed the infinity settings being off for any of their M adapters for M-mount lenses after the sensor stack modification for their Phigment and/or their Novoflex M to NEX adapters.
Has anyone noticed changes to the infinity setting being off for any of their SLR lenses including the Leica R lenses after the sensor stack modification of their A7 or A7r cameras?
Also has anyone tried or have any of the FE lenses like the new 28mm FF lens and tried the performance on their modified sensor stack A7 or A7r cameras?
p.42 #4 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I think beetlephoto incident is a one-off so far. I have not noticed any change in infinity setting on any of my M-mount lenses or my Contax C/Y lenses; I don't believe Charles, Jack, Nicholas or any other has raised this change in infinity setting. The verdict is still out on the FE 28, but it seems Charles is pretty happy with the FE 35/1.4 on his A7R.mod.
And finally I got a perfectly shimmed adapter for my Contax 55/1.2 to truly test for the benefit of the mod. This crop of the corner at f/1.2 is a good evidence that even with these SLR lenses, the thick glass still induces significant astigmatism. I didn't take these at the same time, but it's quite clear. No need for labelling. Same can be said on my Contax 85/1.2, though the effect is not as severe.
p.42 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
I think beetlephoto incident is a one-off so far. I have not noticed any change in infinity setting on any of my M-mount lenses or my Contax C/Y lenses; I don't believe Charles, Jack, Nicholas or any other has raised this change in infinity setting. The verdict is still out on the FE 28, but it seems Charles is pretty happy with the FE 35/1.4 on his A7R.mod.
And finally I got a perfectly shimmed adapter for my Contax 55/1.2 to truly test for the benefit of the mod. This crop of the corner at f/1.2 is a good evidence that even with these SLR lenses, the thick glass still induces significant astigmatism. I didn't take these at the same time, but it's quite clear. No need for labelling. Same can be said on my Contax 85/1.2, though the effect is not as severe.
p.42 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
I think beetlephoto incident is a one-off so far. I have not noticed any change in infinity setting on any of my M-mount lenses or my Contax C/Y lenses; I don't believe Charles, Jack, Nicholas or any other has raised this change in infinity setting. The verdict is still out on the FE 28, but it seems Charles is pretty happy with the FE 35/1.4 on his A7R.mod.
Thanks for the test Hiep
@Beetle, I am sure Ilija will address any issues you may have.
@Beetle and Richard. The adapters are the biggest variables in terms of the width of the flange. The Novoflex tend to lesser in thickness than the Metabones adapters. I found with the un modified A7r and A7s, that some of my M lenses would not reach infinity with the Metabones adapters. All my M lenses had been accurately calibrated. This will also depend on each specific adapter, as I have measured 0.3 mm variations. The Novoflex seem to be better and I have had no issues with no being able to focus to infinity. The best I find are helicoid type, the VME and the Hawkes as you can adjust for FLE lens designs, or just adjust so that the infinity focus coincides
With native mount lenses the FE 55, FE 35/1.4 and Loxias 35/50, I have had no issues with the A7rMod.
p.42 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I explained to Ilija that my infinity point moved after the mod and he said that they in deed over compensate for infinity when no lens/adapter combo is sent with the camera so that you can shim your adapter properly (=move the sensor forward more than before the mod).
The only potential downside I see is native FE lenses with a FLE, but again, you could remove the lens mount and shim it. I think the only FLE native lenses so far are the 16-35 and the 90 macro?
It is not a perfect solution, but if you want your camera to behave the same for infinity as before the mod you can send the lens/adapter combo that Kolari can use to calibrate the sensor placement.
Charles: 0.3mm variation is quite a lot in deed! 0.2mm is enough to shift focus from infinity to about 10m on my noctilux. I guess shimming is not an option with some adapters.
Hiep: impressive improvement for an SLR-design lens!
p.42 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Hi Charles,
How has the Phigment adapter fared with the M-mount lenses and infinity focus? That is my adapter of choice for my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor and Leica WATE. I use the Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 for my Leica 90mm f2.5 Summarit and if I need to focus closer than the lenses do on their own.
p.42 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
You're all welcome guys!
@Rich: I thought you have the Phigment adapter. I believe it's one of the only two out there with the infinity adjustment lock. It would not be a problem then.
There should be a push from adapter makers to have a helicoid adapter with infinity adjustment lock. Quick search on eBay shows that quite a few Chinese helicoid adapters exist nowadays, but they don't have infinity lock. On other way would be going for whatever-mount-to-M-mount adapter, then use the M-E helicoid adapter to adjust. And even though Rayqual is the best adapter maker I have seen (nail infinity on all 4 adapters I got), things like what beetlephoto encounters could easily be solved on the user-end with a helicoid.
p.42 #10 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
You're all welcome guys!
@Rich: I thought you have the Phigment adapter. I believe it's one of the only two out there with the infinity adjustment lock. It would not be a problem then.
There should be a push from adapter makers to have a helicoid adapter with infinity adjustment lock. Quick search on eBay shows that quite a few Chinese helicoid adapters exist nowadays, but they don't have infinity lock. On other way would be going for whatever-mount-to-M-mount adapter, then use the M-E helicoid adapter to adjust. And even though Rayqual is the best adapter maker I have seen (nail infinity on all 4 adapters I got), things like what beetlephoto encounters could easily be solved on the user-end with a helicoid....Show more →
Yes the Phigment adapter is supposed to be adjustable. I had a problem with mine and I sent it along with my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor lens to Paul who made all of the adjustments for me. I believe that the adapter now appears to be dead on for my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor, Leica M WATE, and I also believe that it is dead on for my Leica M 90mm f2.5 Summarit. I was just checking to see if any change was noted for the adapter after Sensor Stack modification. Obviously with the adapter being dead on I would prefer it to not need any adjustment after the mod, but Beggars can't be choosers.
p.42 #11 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
There should be a push from adapter makers to have a helicoid adapter with infinity adjustment lock. Quick search on eBay shows that quite a few Chinese helicoid adapters exist nowadays, but they don't have infinity lock. On other way would be going for whatever-mount-to-M-mount adapter, then use the M-E helicoid adapter to adjust. And even though Rayqual is the best adapter maker I have seen (nail infinity on all 4 adapters I got), things like what beetlephoto encounters could easily be solved on the user-end with a helicoid.
Hiep, that would be a good idea if you had adapters dedicated to each lens. Voigtlander adapter doesn't have a lock, but I believe the macro ring is fairly stiff and it will not rotate unless you hold your camera by its ring. The same with Shoten I just received; it doesn't move freely unless you rotate it.
Adjusting lens on its hard infinity stop may be helpful, but I rather adjust for infinity stop based on plane location for each lens, which doesn't always have to be in the center due to field curvature. In such case I can put up with setting each lens with helicoid adapter for desired infinity stop right before shooting and forget about adjusting it till swapping for another lens. For me it's less hustle than trying to squeeze lens+adapter to their Leica pouches
Speaking of Shoten; its 6mm extension allows Distagon ZM 1.4/35 to focus at 7 inches versus 22 inches with standard adapter. Lux 50 asph can be focused now to 11 inches.
p.42 #12 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charles,
How has the Phigment adapter fared with the M-mount lenses and infinity focus? That is my adapter of choice for my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor and Leica WATE. I use the Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 for my Leica 90mm f2.5 Summarit and if I need to focus closer than the lenses do on their own.
Rich
Hi Rich,
I have two Phigment adapters, but I had two issues. One was some vignetting with my 50 Nocti f/1.0, and the other was the variable response time for the focusing actuation. The fitment of the adapter tended to be loose, so I have just reverted back solely to the Novoflex and mainly the VM-E. I also have the Hawkes which is also excellent. I now do not accept any adapter which is loose or moves. The A7II has by far the best mount followed by the A7s and then the A7r. I assume the A7rII will be a huge improvement again.
Hi Jack,
Like yourself I just use the VME and adjust on the run for infinity with different M lenses mounted. I find this very quick and less troublesome than having dedicated adapters. I really like the Shoten adapter!
Hi Hiep,
I agree it would be nice if the VME/Shotun had focus locking, but if you wish you can have a local Camera center modify to suit. I was about to send my VME to have locking screws similar to the Hawkes design, to Camera Clinic, but I found there was no real need. As Jack suggested the focusing is stiff, and rarely moves once you have adjusted it.
p.42 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
charles.K wrote:
Hi Rich,
I have two Phigment adapters, but I had two issues. One was some vignetting with my 50 Nocti f/1.0, and the other was the variable response time for the focusing actuation. The fitment of the adapter tended to be loose, so I have just reverted back solely to the Novoflex and mainly the VM-E. I also have the Hawkes which is also excellent. I now do not accept any adapter which is loose or moves. The A7II has by far the best mount followed by the A7s and then the A7r. I assume the A7rII will be a huge improvement again.
Hi Jack,
Like yourself I just use the VME and adjust on the run for infinity with different M lenses mounted. I find this very quick and less troublesome than having dedicated adapters. I really like the Shoten adapter!
Hi Hiep,
I agree it would be nice if the VME/Shotun had focus locking, but if you wish you can have a local Camera center modify to suit. I was about to send my VME to have locking screws similar to the Hawkes design, to Camera Clinic, but I found there was no real need. As Jack suggested the focusing is stiff, and rarely moves once you have adjusted it. ...Show more →
Hi Charles,
I am sorry to hear of your issues with your Phigment adapters. My adapter tightly locks to both my A7r mount as well as to my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor and my Leica M WATE lenses. I believe that it also locks tightly with my Leica M 90mm f2..5 Summarit lens as well. When I purchased the Phigment adapter I intended for its usage with WA (and possibly normal) M mount lenses and that is what I am using the adapter with the 40mm and the WATE lenses. I know that there is a bit of vignetting with my 90mm Summarit and as a result use it with my Hawk's Factory V5 Helicoid which was designed to not vignette with all M mount focal length lenses. I had intended to use the M mount lenses to supplement my longer Leica R lenses which I am doing though I also am using my R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 as my 28mm focal length as well. I have found a very slight amount of play with my Novoflex Leica R to NEX adapter but I have found it to be acceptable.
I like the EXIF data available that I can record with my images taken with my Phigment adapter and the 40mm M-Rokkor and the WATE. This helps me to differentiate images taken with my other lenses.
By the way, you are using many more M mount lenses than I expect to ever have. On the other hand, I do have a large number of Leica R lenses both in the shorter and longer focal lengths to use with the Sony cameras.
p.42 #14 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JaKo wrote:
Hiep, that would be a good idea if you had adapters dedicated to each lens. Voigtlander adapter doesn't have a lock, but I believe the macro ring is fairly stiff and it will not rotate unless you hold your camera by its ring. The same with Shoten I just received; it doesn't move freely unless you rotate it.
Adjusting lens on its hard infinity stop may be helpful, but I rather adjust for infinity stop based on plane location for each lens, which doesn't always have to be in the center due to field curvature. In such case I can put up with setting each lens with helicoid adapter for desired infinity stop right before shooting and forget about adjusting it till swapping for another lens. For me it's less hustle than trying to squeeze lens+adapter to their Leica pouches
Speaking of Shoten; its 6mm extension allows Distagon ZM 1.4/35 to focus at 7 inches versus 22 inches with standard adapter. Lux 50 asph can be focused now to 11 inches.
p.42 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Matt Grum wrote:
The price list states that the existing filter stack is put back on after the monochrome conversion, however they can change the filter stack at the same time as the conversion (at a discount). I imagine the same sensor is used with a mechanical process to remove the CFA.
Matt is correct, i can change the filter stack to whatever you wish.
Typically, on nearly every mono conversion i have done to date, i use a high quality AR coated clear glass that is only ~1mm thick to seal the sensor, and then whatever filters are needed for the type of mod the customer is looking for (ie baader IR block for "normal" photography, which only adds another 0.3mm so you are down to a total of 1.3mm for most Mods. Or for full spectrum mod, there is no other glass installed so you just have the 1mm cover glass. I have not found any other/thinner glass to seal the sensor well that is high enough quality. If you guys know if anything let me know. )
Yes, i use the sensor that came in the camera. It may take a bit longer but it is the only economical choice for me at this time.
I actually use either/or/both physical (mechanical) method or a chemical striping to remove the CFA. It depends on the manufacturer, but most sony or nikon thus far have been mechanical method.
Either one results in a gain in sensitivity. When a 5D classic can take images at iso1600 and look like iso400, i call that a win lol
Though admittedly i have not done any true scientific studies, but am more than willing to let someone so that for us. I just know what people have told me and what my own experiences have been.
I have tons of images on my pc that would help demonstrate (none yet with the Sony as i haven't modified that yet), i just need to get off my butt, upload them to Flickr, and post them.
p.42 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
mcbroomf wrote:
Jako, what was the limit on the 50 Lux with the std adapter, ~ 18" or so? Do you have anything longer, eg 75 or 90 to test MFD?
Thanks
Mike
Mike,
Lux 50 asph has MFD of 22". Not sure if they measure from the front of the glass or the sensor, but my measurements are from the front element.
Summicron 90 v.III has MDF of 34" on standard adapter and 21" in macro mode.
p.42 #17 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
HyperCams wrote:
Matt is correct, i can change the filter stack to whatever you wish.
Typically, on nearly every mono conversion i have done to date, i use a high quality AR coated clear glass that is only ~1mm thick to seal the sensor, and then whatever filters are needed for the type of mod the customer is looking for (ie baader IR block for "normal" photography, which only adds another 0.3mm so you are down to a total of 1.3mm for most Mods. Or for full spectrum mod, there is no other glass installed so you just have the 1mm cover glass. I have not found any other/thinner glass to seal the sensor well that is high enough quality. If you guys know if anything let me know. )
Yes, i use the sensor that came in the camera. It may take a bit longer but it is the only economical choice for me at this time.
I actually use either/or/both physical (mechanical) method or a chemical striping to remove the CFA. It depends on the manufacturer, but most sony or nikon thus far have been mechanical method.
Either one results in a gain in sensitivity. When a 5D classic can take images at iso1600 and look like iso400, i call that a win lol
Though admittedly i have not done any true scientific studies, but am more than willing to let someone so that for us. I just know what people have told me and what my own experiences have been.
I have tons of images on my pc that would help demonstrate (none yet with the Sony as i haven't modified that yet), i just need to get off my butt, upload them to Flickr, and post them. ...Show more →
When you have a chance to work with the A7 you have, would you find out the thickness of the clear glass on top of the sensor? Some believe it's about 0.5mm. If it is, you can use similar glass like that for your future mod.
It's interesting to know that the Baader filter can go down to 0.3mm. How's the IR contamination issue with this filter? Is there any breakage incident so far? Thank you.
p.42 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
HyperCams wrote:
Matt is correct, i can change the filter stack to whatever you wish.
Typically, on nearly every mono conversion i have done to date, i use a high quality AR coated clear glass that is only ~1mm thick to seal the sensor, and then whatever filters are needed for the type of mod the customer is looking for (ie baader IR block for "normal" photography, which only adds another 0.3mm so you are down to a total of 1.3mm for most Mods. Or for full spectrum mod, there is no other glass installed so you just have the 1mm cover glass. I have not found any other/thinner glass to seal the sensor well that is high enough quality. If you guys know if anything let me know. )
Yes, i use the sensor that came in the camera. It may take a bit longer but it is the only economical choice for me at this time.
I actually use either/or/both physical (mechanical) method or a chemical striping to remove the CFA. It depends on the manufacturer, but most sony or nikon thus far have been mechanical method.
Either one results in a gain in sensitivity. When a 5D classic can take images at iso1600 and look like iso400, i call that a win lol
Though admittedly i have not done any true scientific studies, but am more than willing to let someone so that for us. I just know what people have told me and what my own experiences have been.
I have tons of images on my pc that would help demonstrate (none yet with the Sony as i haven't modified that yet), i just need to get off my butt, upload them to Flickr, and post them. ...Show more →
Any idea when the thin corrosion resistant sensor stack cover will be available to send my A7r in for the modification?
p.42 #19 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Kolari has been using the corrosion resistant version for some time now (weeks), until the Schott fire that disrupted the supply chain first of this month.
p.42 #20 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JimBuchanan wrote:
Kolari has been using the corrosion resistant version for some time now (weeks), until the Schott fire that disrupted the supply chain first of this month.
I am aware. I am checking to see when they expect to have the corrosion resistant versions available for installation again as a result of the Shott fire.
