p.41 #1 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Matt Grum wrote:
Very interesting, I can think of a lot of things to do with a monochrome A7s!
btw. the standard version of dcraw will output images with no demosaicing with the -D option, you can download a ready compiled windows binary.
Thank you. I meant AccuRaw Monochrome . Don't use these 3rd party raw converter that often so I mixed them up. I saw your post back then about writing a small app for monochrome conversion, but I guess the Hypercam guy didn't go through with it. I definitely prefer a GUI version, but to get a true monochrome benefit, I guess I have to make do with the something like dcraw or going RawDigger for Tiff conversion 1st.
p.41 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Just received my A7rM.
Before I send a pissed email to Kolari Vision, has anyone else experienced the EVF to not work after the mod? In settings, Finder/monitor is set to Auto so it should work.
p.41 #4 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Yes - I sent him an email.
Just quickly tested the TS-E 17mm, and it is now pretty bad in the corners and the lens now shows strong field curvature. My guess is that this is not due to the new sensor stack, but due to the register distance that has changed with the mod (bad impact on lenses with a floating lens element); which means that I will need to shim my Metabones adapter (hopefully ADDING thickness will have a positive effect).
Canon 85/1.2 also seems to have degraded IQ in the sides/corners, again probably due to register distance that has changed (also an FLE design).
Also tested my 35/1.2 II, seems pretty good and quite an improvement wide open in the corners, but have not tested infinity yet.
Noctilux f/1 is also good (no noticeable change after the mod) but would need to test further. Apparently there is no difference between a stock A7r and a M240, for instance, in terms of sharpness. Will test for CA and field curvature.
So, in a nutshell, seems positive but I need to shim my Metabones adapter to conclude, and to spend a geeky afternoon outside testing my lenses - but I guess it'll have to wait now that I have to send it back (will probably take another 2-3w )
p.41 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
Thank you. I meant AccuRaw Monochrome . Don't use these 3rd party raw converter that often so I mixed them up. I saw your post back then about writing a small app for monochrome conversion, but I guess the Hypercam guy didn't go through with it. I definitely prefer a GUI version, but to get a true monochrome benefit, I guess I have to make do with the something like dcraw or going RawDigger for Tiff conversion 1st.
FWIW I just received an a7 for myself and am working through the monochrome conversion.
I have my (personal) mono 5D3 and 5d classic but after using mirror less for a while I am in love and WILL break into this conversion eventually.
However, I am a one man show that works full time, has a wife and 20 month old boy, and do this as funds permit.
Though after 12+years, 700+ cameras modified (I really stopped counting a long time ago it could be many more), ~60 of those being mono conversions in the last two years or so on multiple platforms (though most are canon DSLR type), I am quite confident in my venture into the a7 world.
I do not get on to forums often to post things like this so if you want a faster response just shoot me a pm here or email.
I will check this and try to keep up but so far there seems to be great promise with this line.
p.41 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
beetlephoto wrote:
Just quickly tested the TS-E 17mm, and it is now pretty bad in the corners and the lens now shows strong field curvature. My guess is that this is not due to the new sensor stack, but due to the register distance that has changed with the mod (bad impact on lenses with a floating lens element); which means that I will need to shim my Metabones adapter (hopefully ADDING thickness will have a positive effect).
- but I guess it'll have to wait now that I have to send it back (will probably take another 2-3w )
I'm pretty sure the moded sensor will need to be moved forward for infinity, meaning the adapter will need to be thinner. My a7 is at Kolari waiting for the resumed supply of glass, but I did send a reference lens and adapter to be used for calibrating the sensor placement for infinity.
p.41 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JimBuchanan wrote:
I'm pretty sure the moded sensor will need to be moved forward for infinity, meaning the adapter will need to be thinner. My a7 is at Kolari waiting for the resumed supply of glass, but I did send a reference lens and adapter to be used for calibrating the sensor placement for infinity.
Jim, the sensor is already moved forward so that the existing adapter would work as it normally would on the stock one. Obviously, Ilija used Michael's adapter and lens as the referenced point so it might be off by a tiny bit from others. My Rayqual adapter behaved the same before and after the mod.
p.41 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
HyperCams wrote:
FWIW I just received an a7 for myself and am working through the monochrome conversion.
I have my (personal) mono 5D3 and 5d classic but after using mirror less for a while I am in love and WILL break into this conversion eventually.
However, I am a one man show that works full time, has a wife and 20 month old boy, and do this as funds permit.
Though after 12+years, 700+ cameras modified (I really stopped counting a long time ago it could be many more), ~60 of those being mono conversions in the last two years or so on multiple platforms (though most are canon DSLR type), I am quite confident in my venture into the a7 world.
I do not get on to forums often to post things like this so if you want a faster response just shoot me a pm here or email.
I will check this and try to keep up but so far there seems to be great promise with this line.
Brent, I just want to clarify. The old thread involved Matt offered to write the monochrome app conversion to whomever modded his camera to Monochrome for free. Then it went dead from there. Anyway, do keep us up to date with the Monochrome progress. At this point, the only thing the Leica Monochrome has over this system is just the microlens array.
p.41 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
hiepphotog wrote:
Jim, the sensor is already moved forward so that the existing adapter would work as it normally would on the stock one. Obviously, Ilija used Michael's adapter and lens as the referenced point so it might be off by a tiny bit from others. My Rayqual adapter behaved the same before and after the mod.
Sorry, for the counterpoint...
In my conversations with Kolari, they do not compensate for the infinity difference caused by the thinner filter stack. They will compensate for the infinity difference, if you send them a reference lens and adapter, which I did.
It is not obvious that Ilija used Michael's (beetlephoto) adapter and lens as the referenced point, as that statement was not made by Michael (beetlephoto). Furthermore, why then would the TS-E 17 be worse performance after the stack switch as he describes it?
beetlephoto, did you send any lens/adapter combos to Kolari with your camera for infinity calibration or not?
p.41 #10 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JimBuchanan wrote:
Sorry, for the counterpoint...
In my conversations with Kolari, they do not compensate for the infinity difference caused by the thinner filter stack. They will compensate for the infinity difference, if you send them a reference lens and adapter, which I did.
It is not obvious that Ilija used Michael's (beetlephoto) adapter and lens as the referenced point, as that statement was not made by Michael (beetlephoto). Furthermore, why then would the TS-E 17 be worse performance after the stack switch as he describes it?
beetlephoto, did you send any lens/adapter combos to Kolari with your camera for infinity calibration or not?
Micheal is mdemeyer. He initiated this mod with Ilija. Anyway. Ilija has to re-shim the sensor position; it's also mentioned on Lloyd Chamber's blog. Without re-positioning, adapted lens would not be able to reach infinity as is, especially the one with spot-on infinity. And just to be clear, my Rayqual was spot on with infinity before and after the mod. As for beetlephoto TSE 17 problem, I'm not too sure though I suspect his adapter is already too thin to begin with and the thin filter somehow exacerbates the problem.
p.41 #11 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JimBuchanan wrote:
In my conversations with Kolari, they do not compensate for the infinity difference caused by the thinner filter stack. They will compensate for the infinity difference, if you send them a reference lens and adapter, which I did.
It is not obvious that Ilija used Michael's (beetlephoto) adapter and lens as the referenced point, as that statement was not made by Michael (beetlephoto). Furthermore, why then would the TS-E 17 be worse performance after the stack switch as he describes it?
beetlephoto, did you send any lens/adapter combos to Kolari with your camera for infinity calibration or not?
Am I missing something?
Hi guys. I can clarify here and I do know the answer with 100% certainly. As mentioned, I worked on the development of the mod with Kolari.
The sensor is moved (re-shimmed) as part of the modification. The amount of the adjustment is designed to maintain the same optical flange to sensor distance as the stock camera. So your adapted lenses should focus the same before and after... if your adapter was too thin (as most are and, hence, the ability to focus past infinity) before, they should be the same afterward. For a primary focus reference lens we use a Zeiss ZM 50mm Planar (new from factory for this purpose) which is very easy to recognize sharp focus with.
Shimming adapters for proper infinity focus is critical for lenses with floating elements to achieve proper performance. This has nothing to do with the mod... it's true on an unmodified camera, too. This is why the 17mm TSE needs a properly shimmed adapter. {It should have needed one before the mod, too.}
Shimming adapters for lenses without floating elements has no effect on optical performance, but is a convenience for those who like to pre-focus or use the hard infinity stop.
p.41 #12 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
HyperCams wrote:
FWIW I just received an a7 for myself and am working through the monochrome conversion.
I have my (personal) mono 5D3 and 5d classic but after using mirror less for a while I am in love and WILL break into this conversion eventually.
However, I am a one man show that works full time, has a wife and 20 month old boy, and do this as funds permit.
Though after 12+years, 700+ cameras modified (I really stopped counting a long time ago it could be many more), ~60 of those being mono conversions in the last two years or so on multiple platforms (though most are canon DSLR type), I am quite confident in my venture into the a7 world.
I do not get on to forums often to post things like this so if you want a faster response just shoot me a pm here or email.
I will check this and try to keep up but so far there seems to be great promise with this line.
Can you comment on the approach to the monochrome conversion? Are you replacing the sensor completely, or doing something to remove the color filter elements? Also, do you make any changes to the filter stack in this process?
p.41 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Ilija stated to me that the original accurate infinity focus, after thin filter mod, is only possible if they have a reference lens and reference adapter to use in the sensor placement. I sent a brand new ZM Planar and a calibrated M to E adapter with a Sony a7, for my mod. I have factory calibrated Leica M lenses and have several calibrated adapters machined by myself that produce good hard stop infinity on Sony E cameras, and I understand the dynamics at play with hard stop infinity focus both with simple lens assemblies and floating element designs.
Poster beetlephoto made the statement that after the mod the TS-E was worse at infinity, indicating that the Kolari mod did not compensate for the optical difference in the thin filter mod as there was a focus difference before and after the mod.
I was only suggesting that he send a reference lens/adapter with his camera back for repair, as they have stated they can accommodate the request.
BTW, now that I know who "Michael" is, I will agree with his post a couple levels up.
Anyway, I look forward to the supply chain catching up with the demand for this mod.
p.41 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Guys, thanks for the interesting discussion.
To clear things up, mdemeyer (Michael) is in deed the originator of this mod with Kolari Vision -thanks a ton!!!, I'm just another beta tester, credit goes to Michael.
Regarding the 17 TS-E, I quickly snapped 2 shots before leaving for work with the TS-E this morning and can confirm that the lens now behaves like a digital holga, sharp in the center, but nowhere near sharp in the sides/corners, even stopped down.
As mentioned by Michael, it is very likely that my Metabones adapter was a bit short from the start (although I have hundreds of pictures with great performance right to the corners with full shift), but there are most likely two reasons I did not notice it: 1) I shoot at least at f/8 for most pictures and 2) it could be that the original stack somehow was more tolerant (I'm thinking of field curvature here, but I'm no optical expert - if someone knows whether that's possible please chime in).
There's also a third option, as mentioned above: the register distance could have been reduced with the mod. I understand from Michael that Kolari compensates for the optical thickness, but I will investigate tonight if the stack has in deed moved the sensor backwards. This is an easy test for me, as I had calibrated the infinity point of my Hawks v3 adapter with my noctilux f/1 at full aperture on my stock A7r. If the infinity remains the same after the mod, then Kolari has compensated for the optical thickness of the stack. If not, either they have not compensated it, or not enough.
Also, I did not send a lens/adapter combo to them for calibration. I'm personally OK with shimming my Metabones adapter, if the performance after shimming is high with my two Canon lenses (17 tse, 85/1.2). Also, if the sensor placement (point of focus on sensor) does not match the original placement, it also does not cause an issue for my M lenses, as I have a Hawks v3 adapter and will just need to recalibrate for infinity. It would however potentially be an issue with non-shimmable adapters like the Novoflex M/FE adapter, but I personally don't use them anymore and favor the helicoid adapters.
p.41 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
There would be kind of trick for adjustement to infinite: We can use two adapters combined like one helicoid M to Fe and one Nikon F or Canon to M. So In every case we have an helicoidal part at the end.
I asked Novoflex few days ago and they confirmed me it's possible.
I was interested by this because of combine both M and Nikon ZF lenses without having three adapters...
Well the last adapter must be fixed in the end.
My F to FE adapter isn't properly calibrated also, lenses go after infinite.
p.41 #17 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
mdemeyer wrote:
Hi Brent,
Can you comment on the approach to the monochrome conversion? Are you replacing the sensor completely, or doing something to remove the color filter elements? Also, do you make any changes to the filter stack in this process?
Thanks,
Michael
The price list states that the existing filter stack is put back on after the monochrome conversion, however they can change the filter stack at the same time as the conversion (at a discount). I imagine the same sensor is used with a mechanical process to remove the CFA.
p.41 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Matt Grum wrote:
The price list states that the existing filter stack is put back on after the monochrome conversion, however they can change the filter stack at the same time as the conversion (at a discount). I imagine the same sensor is used with a mechanical process to remove the CFA.
He actually uses chemical to strip the CFA layer, which includes the microlens array on top as well. So technically, you don't get the same gain in sensitivity as the Leica Monochrome. Nonetheless, for IR region, it should see a huge gain. What is most interesting is still converting the A7r to monochrome, maximize resolution while color cast doesn't have to be dealt with.
p.41 #20 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
So, I confirm infinity is now off with my A7rM on my calibrated Hawks v3 + noctilux combo. Infinity is now at approx 10m on the focus ring of the lens, which corresponds to the sensor now being about 0.2mm further back than before the mod (measured with calipers so +/-0.05 accuracy mm I'd say).
While I personally don't mind as I can shim my Metabones adapter, and can adjust infinity on the Hawks v3 adapter, I thought it might be worth sharing. Again I'm sure Kolari can and will adjust the infinity if you provide them with a lens.
. Don't use these 3rd party raw converter that often so I mixed them up. I saw your post back then about writing a small app for monochrome conversion, but I guess the Hypercam guy didn't go through with it. I definitely prefer a GUI version, but to get a true monochrome benefit, I guess I have to make do with the something like dcraw or going RawDigger for Tiff conversion 1st.
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