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Archive 2015 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!

  
 
vitix68
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p.33 #1 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


mdemeyer wrote:
Might have to break down and get the new ZM 35mm 1.4!

Michael


I'd be curious to see if the ZM has the same weird effect of double image on modified sensors.



Mar 16, 2015 at 03:52 AM
mdemeyer
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p.33 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


vitix68 wrote:
I'd be curious to see if the ZM has the same weird effect of double image on modified sensors.


I've only seen that mentioned in Sean Cook's review on Steve Huff's site, but that whole review (to me) is very difficult to make much sense out of given Sean's preferences for processing his images. Have you seen it documented elsewhere? I don't remember seeing anything in Lloyd's reviews, although I think he was mostly testing on the M240 since the standard Sony stack undermines the value of the lens, methinks.

Michael



Mar 16, 2015 at 01:19 PM
charles.K
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p.33 #3 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


beetlephoto wrote:
Was not aware of that, it makes me even more excited now!

Will try to do some test shots that I can replicate after the conversion.


My understanding is there will be continual improvements with the thin filter modification. I again thank Kolari Vision for undertaking this project as it has changed my perspective with A7 series with M mount lenses. With further improvements it may well be very difficult to differentiate between the A7r and M240. The A7r is of course the first iteration, and I much prefer the use and ergonomics with the A7II/A7s, but for an easy light to go camera with the WATE/28 Elmarit v3/35 Lux FLE the A7r modified is pretty amazing IMO






Mar 16, 2015 at 07:46 PM
Ultron50
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p.33 #4 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


What is different ergonomically between the A7R and A7S?


Mar 17, 2015 at 03:59 AM
Greggf
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p.33 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Hey Charles. My new A7r is to be delivered tommorow to KolariVision, ad it'll get the new revised thinner glass!! Do you have any idea, or anyone really, how the ZM 25 2.8 or a 24 Elmarit will do with the modified glass? Your 28 v3 looks astounding, but I didn't want to pilfer your lens lineup....


Mar 17, 2015 at 05:24 PM
hiepphotog
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p.33 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Greggf wrote:
Hey Charles. My new A7r is to be delivered tommorow to KolariVision, ad it'll get the new revised thinner glass!! Do you have any idea, or anyone really, how the ZM 25 2.8 or a 24 Elmarit will do with the modified glass? Your 28 v3 looks astounding, but I didn't want to pilfer your lens lineup....


Nicholas tested the ZM 25 here:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1340474/21?b=2

My A7s would be here this Thursday, woohoo (got the tracking today). I hope to see even more improvement on this new glass since my RF lenses really need it. I have no doubt they would do fine around f/8 or f/11 (even before the mod, they were doing fine at those apertures). I just sold my Multiflex head, but the new ballhead is going to be here on Thursday as well. Dusting off my tripod since it has been in the closet for too long.



Mar 17, 2015 at 05:39 PM
charles.K
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p.33 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Greg, looking forward to your shots with the A7rM As Hiep mentioned Nicholas has already posted regarding the ZM 25/2.8. I suspect the 24 Elmarit will match very well with the modification.

Hiep, I am will be interested in your testing with the A7s, and I may also modify one of my A7s'. My only concern will be moire with lower MP count. Though I am keen to see the RAW file output and if it is further enhanced.

Raining this morning, and flat lighting.

A7rM and M 28 Elmarit V3







Mar 17, 2015 at 10:09 PM
freaklikeme
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p.33 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Has anyone with the mod tried the pre-A Elmarit 21/2.8?


Mar 17, 2015 at 10:47 PM
JaKo
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p.33 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Today I had a chance to test new Zeiss Distagon ZM 1.4/35 on A7R. Image below was taken at f/8 with minimal processing.

Sided by side comparison against Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 should be on ZM 35 1.4 thread soon.

http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/_DSC7885_1600.jpg
Distagon - full size



Mar 18, 2015 at 11:16 PM
mcbroomf
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p.33 #10 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


JaKo wrote:
Today I had a chance to test new Zeiss Distagon ZM 1.4/35 on A7R. Image below was taken at f/8 with minimal processing.

Sided by side comparison against Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 should be on ZM 35 1.4 thread soon.

http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/_DSC7885_1600.jpg
Distagon - full size


Thanks, that looks terrific.



Mar 19, 2015 at 02:37 AM
hiepphotog
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p.33 #11 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


My A7s.KMod is finally here! 5-week wait seems like forever (the normal turn-around is 1-1.5-week, I chose to wait for the arrival of this Mark 2 glass). It is equipped with the Mark 2 glass with thinner profile (same thickness as the M9) and humidity-resistant feature. The glass, however, has the same transmission property as the previous one. I just paraphrased what Ilija gave me.

Let's get the test method out of the way first. I have both the normal A7s and modded A7s. I used the Jobu Algonquin tripod (Gitzo and RRS Series 4,5 equivalent) together with the Sunwayfoto XB-44DL head (low profile tripod head to improve stability). There was a very light breeze but I am confident that this set-up would be able to handle it so I just shot away. I used IR remote to eliminate any possible user-induced vibration (typical with the wired remote).

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xHkwvg83ANc/VQskUBi_kdI/AAAAAAAALfQ/xACB7JnFroA/w658-h985-no/_DSC9815-Edit.JPG


To maintain the same framing during the test, I used the battery grip. So I just simply and carefully detach/attach the camera body from/to the grip. I believe the framing was maintained as consistently as possible. Both cameras' WB was set at AWB mode, so there was a different in WB (more cyan for the normal and magenta for the modded). I left it there on purpose for easy ID and to see the effect of changing the filter. There was about 0.5 stop difference in exposure between the two cameras (the normal one was a bit under-exposed). I did not normalize the exposure since I don't believe the lighting shifted at all. It is an overcast day today. Any discrepancy was just the different intrinsic properties between the two cams. There is no additional sharpening. Vignette is corrected (100 amount, 0 Midpoint).

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YMdqpqfahCk/VQsp7auyzHI/AAAAAAAALfk/savTh-NCqGo/s985-no/_DSC9816-Edit.JPG


This is with the Zeiss Distagon ZM 15 f/2.8. I shot two aperture-series tests for each camera. I include full-res JPEGs at the end of this post.

The first set is to simply study the improvement as-is without any DOF and field curvature optimization.

Center: I don't see much difference in the center except for a slightly sharper and more moire/false-color with the modded A7s. This is understandable since the modded A7s doesn't have AA filter. Therefore, I just show the f/4 comparison here.

Center f/4 Comparison (Left - Modded, Right - Normal)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YcXu6eAl3x0/VQsaZzghkUI/AAAAAAAALc0/vPRIFpi6R_M/w1598-h724-no/Cen_4_Cen.JPG


Corners: This is where things get exciting.

The order is the same as above, Left - Modded, Right - Normal

f/2.8
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6L35a3Ba1rw/VQsaeJn-DrI/AAAAAAAALdk/dgKZMIU4BS4/w1597-h725-no/Corner_2_8_Cen.JPG


f/4.0

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a9fYwaP_fkY/VQsafU9TG7I/AAAAAAAALds/5T9mThVsXkY/w1597-h727-no/Corner_4_Cen.JPG


f/5.6

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hEaXGoQBIVY/VQsaf9fZzMI/AAAAAAAALd0/1_zaR7LB_M0/w1598-h725-no/Corner_5_6_Cen.JPG


f/8.0

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZFbOH-P17qs/VQsahAROFDI/AAAAAAAALeQ/bY0JP8F07po/w1598-h723-no/Corner_8_0_Cen.JPG


This is the second set. The purpose is to find the optimized performance. In Lloyd's test, he mentioned about the extended DOF (i.e. thicker DOF) with the modded camera. Interesting point that I have not seen mentioned anywhere else. With this premise, I took another series with the focus at the corners. I hope the extended DOF would give me a sharp corner-to-corner picture at f/5.6 instead of f/8 or f/11 (to avoid diffraction).

Anyway, the normal A7s with its extremely curved field toward the corners would be useless for this method (only works around f/11). Nonetheless, I do include the results in the rar file. What I am showing right here is the difference between placing the focus at the center vs. corners.

Center: Left - Corners Focus, Right - Center Focus

f/2.8

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7FSyAU5vsRo/VQsaadIulMI/AAAAAAAALdE/0twg2ykMvwQ/w1597-h725-no/Center_2_8.JPG


f/4.0

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EmtaNoPzkXE/VQsaa5gmkfI/AAAAAAAALc8/95HzanxNjSM/w1598-h725-no/Center_4.JPG


f/5.6

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M-oTD6cqC-w/VQsabkxILyI/AAAAAAAALdM/Hq2BNePzlLM/w1597-h727-no/Center_5_6.JPG


f/8.0

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CPRqznJmiYs/VQsacbpISQI/AAAAAAAALdU/OOfQruLOSTY/w1598-h725-no/Center_8.JPG


Corner: Left - Corners Focus, Right - Center Focus

f/2.8

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lstd0o8qNP0/VQsad1b9GAI/AAAAAAAALdc/30n6kDZDRIY/w1598-h725-no/Corner_2_8.JPG


f/4.0

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AOes6Tx_dlk/VQsae9TFpqI/AAAAAAAALeg/EMi0N3hM7-g/w1598-h726-no/Corner_4.JPG


f/5.6

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zZzlITYeJX0/VQsagu2nIBI/AAAAAAAALeI/AVozKFSYrOc/w1598-h725-no/Corner_8.JPG


f/8.0

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-E0V12YUBYT4/VQsgB4aMf1I/AAAAAAAALfA/WfA44b5exi8/w1597-h725-no/Corner_81.JPG


My own conclusions: The KolariVision mod helps tremendously. It greatly reduces not only the field curvature, but also the astigmatism. By doing so, it increases the effective DOF that the lens has. As seen from the results above, I can happily shoot at f/5.6 by simply focusing at the corners/edges. The center, by then, is identical. I doubt M9 and M240 users could do better than this, at least on the ZM 15. Below is the link to the full-res version. Again, you can tell these two cameras apart by their WB (cyan-normal, magenta-modded). There are ten pictures for each cam; the first 5 are center-focus, and the last 5 are corner-focus. I also include an aperture series I took with the Samyang 14 (a copy with the least de-centering out of 6 copies I have tried). In the center, the Samyang needs to stop down to f/5.6 or f/8 to match what the Zeiss can do at WO. In the corners, they match at WO, but the Zeiss pulls ahead after that with the optimization. I didn't optimize for the Samyang shot.

ZM15 Aperture Series

Samyang Aperture Series



Mar 19, 2015 at 02:27 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.33 #12 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Nice work, thanks for the effort! If I didn't already have my camera modded, I'd totally be sold by that :-) And it does help me feel better about having done it already, since I haven't done anything that scientific myself.




Mar 19, 2015 at 04:18 PM
beetlephoto
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p.33 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Thanks a lot for the tests! That makes me very hopeful. Field curvature is pretty bad with my noctilux f1 on the stock a7r, more so than on my ex-M9, I feel. The CA also seem stronger on the a7r than on the M9, hopefully this will improve too.


Mar 19, 2015 at 04:38 PM
hiepphotog
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p.33 #14 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Thank you all for the encouragement. The purpose of this thorough test is first and foremost for myself to justify this mod with my wife . Secondly, I hope through this comparisons, more people would do the conversion so Ilija would continue improving this even further. I would like to take a moment to thank Ilija and Michael to initiate this mod and make it available publicly. I also would like to thank a handful of brave souls (Charlie, Charles, Nicholas, Jack, Taylor... to others I apologize if I missed your name) on this forum that went through with this mod despite the FUD factor, and posted their results.

Now to the next lens comparison, it's the Contax G 90. I hope you guys give me feedback on this result. But based on this, the mod still works on this focal length. I see noticeable improvement in the corners. There is a slight dip in mid-frame on the normal A7s (around the orange square area on the right); there is no such dip on the Kolari version. I would say that's an amazing result! I hope it's not just me seeing thing.

Here is the corner at WO: (left - normal, right -modded)

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SQTSMevsRRQ/VQtQRyPwPbI/AAAAAAAALgI/wGEg04rDT14/w1598-h725-no/Corner_2_8.JPG


And damn, this G90 is a sharp sharp lens. I can see noticeable false color and moire even in the corners! Full-res rar was added below:

Contax G Sonnar 90



Mar 19, 2015 at 05:56 PM
charles.K
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p.33 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Great work Jack and Hiep on your comparisons.

Hiep, I glad that the modification also translates to the A7s which is my favourite to go camera. I have also noticed across the range improvements from field curvature, CA, corner sharpness and a clarity that I originally noticed with the M9/M240. At first the RAW files from the A7rM are somewhat flat, comparable to what Monochrome produces. It is malleability that allows the files be PP'd and having the excellent DR.



Mar 20, 2015 at 02:21 AM
Greggf
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p.33 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Thanks Heip for all the work and comparisons! Very helpful! On a side note....I just received an email from KolariVision that my A7r is to be shipped back to me today!!! They got it 2 days ago!!! That has to be a record...I hope I told them the correct conversion??
Gregg



Mar 20, 2015 at 11:51 AM
uscmatt99
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p.33 #17 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Hiep that was a fantastic presentation, thanks so much! I did a similar test with my RF lenses when the A7 came out and it was painful, and I didn't even compare to another camera. Color me convinced now. I'll probably get an A7ii for native FE lenses and mod my trusty A7 to bring the RF glass back into the fold.


Mar 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM
hiepphotog
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p.33 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Thank you guys!

Gregg: Congrats. You're so lucky. 2-day wait is insanely quick. Enjoy.

Matt: you won't regret it. The mod would be beneficial even for telephoto as shown above.

Disadvantages so far: wonky WB and I believe it robs about 1/2 stop of light

Edit: added a WO shot on the Contax 55 Jahre. I see reduction in veiling haze and CA. This lens has floating element but the darn LA-EA3 adapter I have is not spot on. I have to shim it. Too bad there is no Rayqual Sony MA to Sony E adapter.

Left - normal, right -modded

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-21PMb4vh3C8/VQyH81LTROI/AAAAAAAALgs/YPS9pXkwbxY/w1598-h727-no/Capture.JPG


Edited on Mar 20, 2015 at 05:23 PM · View previous versions



Mar 20, 2015 at 02:49 PM
beetlephoto
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p.33 #19 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


1/2 stop of light compared to stock stack? What about WB - is it acceptable if manual WB is done or is there always a color cast? that sounds like a colored opaque stack, not sure what to think about it.


Mar 20, 2015 at 04:29 PM
hiepphotog
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p.33 #20 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Bettlephoto: I used the dropper tool in Lightroom to match the WB, and they match each other. So there is no color cast form the stack. It just got wonky. Michael suggested that I should do WB trim adjustment. Probably do that tomorrow.

This is probably my last comparison, kinda burnt-out taking these boring test shots.

I got a loaner Sony FE 55/1.8 today. Ran a test. Conclusion: I don't see any difference. This particular copy has very mild de-centering (only visible into the extreme corners). The modded A7s shows opposite de-centering effect. The normal A7s shows overall softer image, again due to the presence of an AA filter.

Full-res files (I put the modded one on an extreme blue/cyan AWB for ID purpose).

FE 55/1.8 Comparison

Enjoy guys. I don't think I can get a Loxia for testing purpose.



Mar 20, 2015 at 07:36 PM
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