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 p.15 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all! | |
philip_pj wrote:
"But, again, all glass designed for film (no cover stack) will improve. This is what we are seeing and the only question is 'how much' on any particular lens."
Zeiss, Sony, Canon, Nikon and Zeiss might all be interested - can the evidence for the above be published for them and others to review?
Tariq Gibran wrote:
...or they might not be interested at all since they would rather sell everyone new lenses.
I agree with Tariq. There's zero incentive to undermine new lens sales. My guess is these guys knew about the problem all along, just that some brands transitioning directly to DSLRs didn't stand to suffer the same problems we're seeing with short exit pupil designs, so it wasn't imperative for them to find radical solutions. And the sensors were pretty low resolution, too. It's no surprise knowing this now, to think back to Leica's relatively vague statement back in the mid 2000s that a FF digital M was impossible. Looking back, there's Olympus's statements touting the strongly telecentric designs of their four-thirds lens designs back when that system first launched.
It's just some of us optics noobs (me included) who have only recently finally figured it out.
As sensors have improved, it's been a factor spurring lens upgrades. I.e. Canon's statement that all L lenses since 2010 have been designed with 50+MP in mind, which also provides an opportunity to better optimize for sensor cover glass. Well, actually for that resolution, you'd think it would be mandatory to ensure decent edge performance. The Otus lenses...
Regarding the Loxia lenses... my take is that the 50 was already pretty close to as good as it could get, so whatever tweaks it needed, were likely minimal. The 35 baffles me somewhat, because it seems Zeiss didn't do much to its optics, and as a result it seems a bit underwhelming on the a7 cameras. Perhaps it was just a chance to quickly get a couple lenses out and keep some interests in this market going while they develop the next releases. It will be telling once we know whether or not the next Loxias are minor tweaks of previous designs.
charles.K wrote:
Charlie, I really like all the shots in your album with the 28 Elmarit V3. I have had the 28 Cron Asph, and yes it is sharp, but I did not like it on the M240. Yet on the M9 it was very good IMO. Of course for landscapes you have a different criteria. I always found the 28 Cron Asph on the streets was almost too harsh, depending on the lighting. In lower level and contrast lighting the 28 Cron Asph was excellent.
I love the rendering and look with the 28 Elmarit V3. I feel this lens will work great for B&W conversions ...Show more →
+1
uhoh7 wrote:
I think many share your view, but I've been very impressed by Ron's work with the 28 Cron on the 240. It's a different lens than with the M9, but seems to perform great right across the frame.
I think the f/8 shot above suggests the v3, esp a great copy, can be pretty respectable, and it's certainly very nice closer in or with shots that don't need the edges.
As you know there are 5 versions of the elmarit 28. If I could pick just one, it would be the v4, which I don't own.
Thanks for your kind words! I do like the 28 Cron, but in the back of my mind, I've been thinking about finding a 28 that's mellower, more toned down, to complement it. I've thought maybe the Canon 28 LTM, but suspect anything Leica will be much richer with color. Reasoning here is for people photos, such as during weddings. The Cron can be relatively harsh at times, as Charlie mentions. I try to use it wide open as much as possible for it's signature look, but also because stopped down even a stop, and it's just razor (at least centrally). The guy I shoot for has commented about how hard it can be. I'd be interested in trying a Mandler design for the assumed wider aperture mellowness. Generally with candid/documentary people photos, poorer non-central performance isn't of as much concern. It's why I'm still curious about the 35 Lux non-ASPH for certain kinds of similar applications.
I think a year or two ago there was a discussion on the Leica M image thread about building various sets of lenses. I.e. modern, sharp, clinical. This can also be branched to fast modern lenses (Luxes) and slow modern lenses (weight savings for travel, etc.). Add to this, legacy glass with stronger 'character' imperfections. I guess this is where I'd want an older 28 Elmarit to fit in. I can see in Charlie's photos it's not as bold as the ASPHs. But will it be different enough? (definitely a subjective thing)
Regarding the older 28 Elmarits: I'm a bit confused... I thought the current ASPH is the fourth version? Charlie, what is the model number of yours, assuming the older lenses have that info engraved on them like the new ones...?
Biggest tradeoff would be giving up one stop and size being similar to the Cron. But on a modded a7, ISO 3200-6400 is OK, I guess?
An a7 M mount conversion would be interesting...
Even more OT, but now that Pentax (Ricoh) seems finally set to release a FF DSLR, maybe Ricoh can also put some effort into a GXR II with A24/36 M mount module.
Steve Spencer wrote:
You do know that the 24-70 is made by Sony like the FE 55 f/1.8 and FE 35 f/2.8? The Loxia lenses, however, are made by Zeiss. So, if the 24-70 isn't made for the thicker cover glass than Sony not Zeiss would have had to make that decision. I can't see why Sony would do that, or really why even Zeiss would do that.
This would be the logical perspective. But looking at lenses like the 16/2.8, apparently it looks better on some NEX models compared to others. I think roughly when the 5N (or the 3 model before it) arrived and these were the first that seemed decent with M lenses, that some said they felt the 16 also looked better. It could be that some of Sony's lenses are made to be 'close enough' for reasonable performance. Making them considerably better might complicate the design (complexity, cost, size, etc.) too much.
In any case, I'd love to see how the 24-70 performs with before/after, or side by side, comparisons of stock and modded sensors.
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nice link and TY for that. But it's very superficial and stating what has been put forward from the lens introduction, no?
I mean, if you reverse the "E mount effect" seen in the biogon with this interesting asph design....well that could be impressive 