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Archive 2015 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!

  
 
naturephoto1
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p.11 #1 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


LightShow wrote:
Distortion, color shading & vignetting can be corrected, but not smearing, which this modification does improve, including the color shading & vignetting(to some degree).


I would think that LR as an example would still be valuable for making corrections for vignetting and other distortions for M lenses even after the modification to an A7 Camera. That would make sense to me, but would require testing by those that have had the modifications made to their A7 series cameras.

Rich



Feb 03, 2015 at 07:41 PM
charles.K
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p.11 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Hi Charlie,

I don't think there is an argument regarding M bodies being the better platform for M mount lenses. As I mentioned before the M9 had many vignetting and colour cast issues before the later FW updates. These corrections that must done with M mount WA's, either by in camera corrections or external software.

From what I observe, and I really did not expect the 28 Cron to perform as well, so the results are excellent IMO. With the A7rM having the 36MP and increased DR/higher ISO, this is great for those looking for landscape/seascapes.

The question of ergonomics is a personal choice. Having moved my M mount platform to Sony, I would not revert back unless Leica had a similar offering with a RF. Then of course there is a cost factor.

From what I have seen, the results are great with the "thin filter modification". For working with UWA's the Lr work flow will need to adapt some corrections, but this just takes a small amount of effort to set it up to begin and should be no real issue.

Hi Rich,

The corrections in Lr 5.7 mainly deal with geometric corrections for the M lenses rather colour cast and vignetting. I think that Adobe did not want to add another correction to the existing M9/M240 in-camera corrections.

Edited on Feb 03, 2015 at 09:04 PM · View previous versions



Feb 03, 2015 at 07:51 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #3 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


charles.K wrote:
Hi Charlie,

I don't think there is an argument regarding M bodies being the better platform for M mount lenses. As I mentioned before the M9 had many vignetting and colour cast issues before the later FW updates. These corrections that must done with M mount WA's, either by in camera corrections or external software.

From what I observe, and I really did not expect the 28 Cron to perform as well, so the results are excellent IMO. With the A7rM having the 36MP and increased DR/higher ISO, this is great for those looking for landscape/seascapes.

The question of ergonomics is a personal
...Show more

The cron seems excellent, no? I was wondering if i was hallucinating

@ Lightshow. I will try my v3 Elmarit. It may not be reliable as Derek thinks, and I tend to suspect as well, it may be de-centered.



Feb 03, 2015 at 08:04 PM
JaKo
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p.11 #4 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Managed to take few shots this afternoon on a way home (pardon the lifeless colours - it just stopped raining in Vancouver) and comparing them to pre-modded version there is no question that some legacy (designed for film plane it is) lenses will benefit in various degrees from KolariVision thin sensor stack mod. The mod will not make all lenses perfect, but the improvement is huge, IMO.

Let's take Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 for example. On A7/x extreme corners clearly suffered from smearing and the outer zone was showing transition to gradual softness. On modded body, although still not perfect, (and not perfect either in extreme corners from what I saw in dozens of full res images taken with M9/M) Biogon looks like a different lens.

Leica Elmarit-R 28 with no surprise doesn't show any dramatic improvement on modded A7R, but I am sure it was expected. Said that, I have to check my adapter as far left side is a bit off IMO.



All images below were shot at f/8

http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/_DSC06972_640.jpg
Full version
Full version - diagonal


http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/_DSC06975_640.jpg
Full version
Full version - diagonal



Feb 03, 2015 at 09:19 PM
charles.K
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p.11 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Hi Jack,
The ZM35/2 looks very good! I think the 28 Cron Asph is now a great choice for the A7xM versions.



Feb 03, 2015 at 09:36 PM
JaKo
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p.11 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Thank you Charles!
I am really looking forward to evaluation of your Leica lenses. It will be interesting to know your opinion considering that you used most of your RF glass on various M and Sony systems.



Feb 03, 2015 at 09:53 PM
naturephoto1
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p.11 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


charles.K wrote:
Hi Charlie,

I don't think there is an argument regarding M bodies being the better platform for M mount lenses. As I mentioned before the M9 had many vignetting and colour cast issues before the later FW updates. These corrections that must done with M mount WA's, either by in camera corrections or external software.

From what I observe, and I really did not expect the 28 Cron to perform as well, so the results are excellent IMO. With the A7rM having the 36MP and increased DR/higher ISO, this is great for those looking for landscape/seascapes.

The question of ergonomics is a personal
...Show more

Hi Charles,

When I used LR5.7 for my M WATE I found that as I applied more it lessened vignetting (light loss in the corners) as in scenes with blue sky and snow as well as geometric correction.

JaKo wrote:
Managed to take few shots this afternoon on a way home (pardon the lifeless colours - it just stopped raining in Vancouver) and comparing them to pre-modded version there is no question that some legacy (designed for film plane it is) lenses will benefit in various degrees from KolariVision thin sensor stack mod. The mod will not make all lenses perfect, but the improvement is huge, IMO.

Let's take Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 for example. On A7/x extreme corners clearly suffered from smearing and the outer zone was showing transition to gradual softness. On modded body, although still not perfect, (and
...Show more

Hi Jack,

Part of what I was most interested in was would there be no degradation in the performance of the R lenses. If there was any better performance that would have just been icing on the cake.

Rich

Edited on Feb 03, 2015 at 10:26 PM · View previous versions



Feb 03, 2015 at 10:19 PM
charles.K
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p.11 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charles,

When I used LR5.7 for my M WATE I found that as I applied more it lessened vignetting (light loss in the corners) as in scenes with blue sky and snow as well as geometric correction.

Rich


Hi Rich,
You are right, it does lessen the vignetting with the WATE.



Feb 03, 2015 at 10:21 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


JaKo wrote:
Let's take Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 for example. On A7/x extreme corners clearly suffered from smearing and the outer zone was showing transition to gradual softness. On modded body, although still not perfect, (and not perfect either in extreme corners from what I saw in dozens of full res images taken with M9/M) Biogon looks like a different lens.


I must concur about the extreme corners of the biogon on the M9 at infinity, which was quite a shock to me. I spent quite a few hours trying to decide where to go at 35mm on the M9, considering every f/2 option. I choose the biogon simply because it seemed to offer the best technical reproduction and also good performance at f/11.

here is the image which really brought the deep corners to my attention, f/8 on M9:

L1020950 by unoh7, on Flickr

FULL SIZE note upper right corner

I have to wonder, would the latest 35 cron asph give better fidelity in the deep corners on M9?

here is ZM18 around f/8 forgive hair on sensor:

DSC00251 by unoh7, on Flickr

Yes, colorcast. This lens must be coded as 21/2.8 pre-asph to shoot clean on M9.

The hair is also of note. With mod we will see more dust if it's there.



Feb 04, 2015 at 10:06 AM
mdemeyer
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p.11 #10 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Although, with regard to visibility of dust, should be similar to M9/M240 if the stacks are similar thickness.

I realize the shaker is removed with the mod, so don't jump on me about that point! ;-)

Michael



Feb 04, 2015 at 10:50 AM
rscheffler
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p.11 #11 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


uhoh7 wrote:
I must concur about the extreme corners of the biogon on the M9 at infinity, which was quite a shock to me. I spent quite a few hours trying to decide where to go at 35mm on the M9, considering every f/2 option. I choose the biogon simply because it seemed to offer the best technical reproduction and also good performance at f/11.

I have to wonder, would the latest 35 cron asph give better fidelity in the deep corners on M9?



I can only go by MTF comparison at wider apertures (Zeiss only shows up to f/4 and Leica f/5.6), but my feeling is there is some tradeoff. The Cron, like a lot of Leica lenses, has a wavy higher lp/mm curve that indicates recovery towards the image edges, but likely giving up something in the mid zone area, until well stopped down. The ZM curves at f/4, both for the 35/2 and the new 35/1.4, show more level, even, performance across most of the frame, before dropping off at around 17-18mm from center. Of the two ZMs, the Biogon improves gradually over the mid zone from just under 70% (40lp/mm) to just over 80%, before tapering off towards the edges. The new Distagon seems to be more Leica-like, starting off strongest centrally at just over 80%, holding it level the first 5-6mm, dipping a bit in the middle from 7-16mm, though not nearly as dramatically as the Leica, always staying at or above ~65%, recovering at 16-17mm, then dropping off from 80% (sagittal) to 60% at 20mm and 50% by the corner. The Biogon drops from 60 to 40 (sagittal) past 19mm. Both ZM MTFs show that sagittal and tangential lines remain relatively close together. With the Cron ASPH, there is considerable divergence past 17mm, where sagittal increases from 60% and peaks at almost 80% (40lp/mm) at 20mm, while tangential plummets from 60% at 17mm to a bit under 20% at the corner. My guess is the Cron holds better corner detail than the Biogon in one direction, but gives up considerably in the other, which may look somewhat unsettled. In your example, the extreme corners of the Biogon just go kind of softish, but don't really call attention to the problem. There's also the question of how the thin Leica cover glass affects performance and whether this is included in any of the MTF measurements. Back a while ago theSuede commented that the cover glass quality used for the M9's sensor was relatively poor (this was well before the corrosion problem was acknowledged) and might degrade peripheral lens performance, which apparently has been improved with the M240's sensor...

TLDR: The Biogon and new Distagon are probably the best 'fast' 35mm RF options for holding edge/corner detail, though variables in sensor toppings will play a role here as well. Not mentioned above is the Lux ASPH FLE... also has wavy MTF character, but at the corners seems much better at f/5.6 than the Cron ASPH: sagittal in the 70% range, tangential at about 50%. I guess the Cron's design is somewhat of a compromise between size and performance while the ZMs trade compactness for more gradual, consistent performance.

BTW, the ZM35/2.8 seems to be somewhere between the two other ZMs... It's MTF character more closely follows that of the Distagon, but generally tracks 5-10% lower across the frame at f/5.6 (40lp/mm), while the Distagon's measurements are at f/4...



Feb 04, 2015 at 10:55 AM
chrislee
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p.11 #12 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


uhoh7 wrote:
I must concur about the extreme corners of the biogon on the M9 at infinity, which was quite a shock to me. I spent quite a few hours trying to decide where to go at 35mm on the M9, considering every f/2 option. I choose the biogon simply because it seemed to offer the best technical reproduction and also good performance at f/11.

here is the image which really brought the deep corners to my attention, f/8 on M9:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3920/15174236628_1efdd6bc5a_b.jpg
L1020950 by unoh7, on Flickr

FULL SIZE note upper right corner

I have to wonder, would the latest 35 cron asph give better fidelity in
...Show more

Geez Charlie, I'm surprised to at the softness of that M9 shot too! I wasn't expecting to see that.



Feb 04, 2015 at 12:13 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.11 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


chrislee wrote:
Geez Charlie, I'm surprised to at the softness of that M9 shot too! I wasn't expecting to see that.


Sort of reminds me a bit of what the Loxia 35 Biogon does on the A7r. Maybe Zeiss were able to match the performance of the ZM version after all (in a bad way since the corners go soft at the extremes + distance as well).




Feb 04, 2015 at 12:29 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #14 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!




mdemeyer wrote:
Although, with regard to visibility of dust, should be similar to M9/M240 if the stacks are similar thickness.

I realize the shaker is removed with the mod, so don't jump on me about that point! ;-)

Michael

Michael, you are our hero forever, seriously!



Feb 04, 2015 at 05:30 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


A7M SEM21 f/4

a7m_sem21_f/4 by unoh7, on Flickr

f/3.4 (WO)

DSC00375 by unoh7, on Flickr

The SEM21 is now usable for landscapes wide open. I need more sun for good before/after shots It's the most improved lens I own.

The cron is quite good but for a serious landscape you want f/8

a7m_28cron_f8 by unoh7, on Flickr

and with the ZM35/2 you'll want f/11
here is a dark f/8

a7m_zm35-2_f8 by unoh7, on Flickr

Wide Open, at f/2, both 28 cron and zm 35/2 loose it well before the edges in these long infinity shots, which of course you never shoot wide open anyway.

ZM35/2 WO

a7m_zm35-2_f/2 by unoh7, on Flickr
28Cron WO:

a7M_28cron_f2 by unoh7, on Flickr



Feb 04, 2015 at 10:33 PM
sebboh
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p.11 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


uhoh7 wrote:
Wide Open, at f/2, both 28 cron and zm 35/2 loose it well before the edges in these long infinity shots, which of course you never shoot wide open anyway.


sometimes i do.

thanks for posting these, this is excellent news, especially the 21mm.




Feb 04, 2015 at 11:44 PM
LightShow
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p.11 #17 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


I've done WO landscapes at times too, sometimes because I was testing, or wanted a look, others because I forgot to stop-down thinking it was.

I wonder if my NEX-7 would see an improvement....



Feb 05, 2015 at 02:27 AM
mdemeyer
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p.11 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Gents,

Hoped to have time in Stockholm for some photography, but no chance to get away from my day job. However, here's a shot out the office window for those looking for a sample with the 24mm Elmar. I put f3.8, f5.6, and f8 versions in the A7M group on Flickr. No appreciable smearing in the corners, even wide open, although they are a little sharper at 5.6 than 3.8 (although that could just be DOF since the subject is not flat).

24mm Elmar f5.6

Michael



Feb 06, 2015 at 06:15 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.11 #19 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


It is no secret that the 35 biogon has a resolution drop in the extreme corners, but really the affected area is so tiny I would consider it negligible. I seem to have an excellent copy of the biogon, and it has even been finetuned at oberkochen, but I have to say, like with all traditional designs, it is very important at what distance to focus in order to maximize sharpness across the frame.


Feb 06, 2015 at 07:02 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.11 #20 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


25 biogon samples please. Does the 55 FE improce too?


Feb 06, 2015 at 10:59 AM
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