This topic is in the 2014 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2014Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
p.14 #1Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
I have misread the source doc on that ZM lens, Tariq - that is northern European English for you, a different pattern of expression. According to Puts, the quality part is as you say, re Contarex.
I was researching the background to the ZM lenses, curious about them. Maybe like other former medium format users I really like slow lenses, they are so predictable and quality is never a drama, like these Contarex lenses. Apparently Zeiss formed their main principles on design in the 70s and 80s - more elements to spread correction and tolerate less stringent manufacturing quality than Leica did - and does.
Am I the only one a little curious about the Loxias? - not to be critical of CZ whom I pretty much thank every shooting day, but when you look at the later ZE/Fs and Otuses - all brilliant, at high but fair prices, then the ZM 35/1.4, they appear to be at a different level to the ex-ZM Loxias. It looks like a play for the traditional look for M users now with a Sony body, at the cost of recent developments in design. Maybe to get more differentiation from FE lenses too..we have not seen much from them yet. It seems many folks prefer the new ZM Distagon on the modded sensor, if they are prepared to pay for it.
I was researching the background to the ZM lenses, curious about them. Maybe like other former medium format users I really like slow lenses, they are so predictable and quality is never a drama, like these Contarex lenses. Apparently Zeiss formed their main principles on design in the 70s and 80s - more elements to spread correction and tolerate less stringent manufacturing quality than Leica did - and does.
Am I the only one a little curious about the Loxias? - not to be critical of CZ whom I pretty much thank every shooting day, but when you look at the later ZE/Fs and Otuses - all brilliant, at high but fair prices, then the ZM 35/1.4, they appear to be at a different level to the ex-ZM Loxias. It looks like a play for the traditional look for M users now with a Sony body, at the cost of recent developments in design. Maybe to get more differentiation from FE lenses too..we have not seen much from them yet. It seems many folks prefer the new ZM Distagon on the modded sensor, if they are prepared to pay for it.
Feb 13, 2015 at 11:56 PM
p.14 #2Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
SteveDK wrote:
Purple fringing is likely do to some small amount of longitudinal chromatic aberration, rather than coma.
Apparently, production lenses are finally starting to arrive at retailers, but mine is still on backorder at B&H. It's been almost 5 months, now a very slow production. I'll be disappointed if I don't get it before I go on a trip in March.
I guess what I was getting at is if you look at the shape of the purple fringing in the f/1.4 and even f/2 crops, it's not just an evenly round purple halo around the light source, but kind of peaks in the middle. Stretched a bit like you'd expect with coma. Based on experience with other fast M lenses, I'd be surprised if there isn't some degree of coma at wider apertures, but it shouldn't be anywhere near the amount seen with the a7.
Leica will likely go higher MP, but 24 is also pretty decent for general 'on the fly' use. To really extract 40-50MP, technique has to be much better controlled. As it is with 24MP, I can all to easily see how slightly lax hand held technique degrades some of my images. With it being a Leica, I kind of don't want to feel I should be shooting everything on a tripod. Sure, sometimes it's warranted, but most of the time, it just feels like it bogs down the entire process too much. At least for me. It will be interesting to see how Leica plays the MP game. So far with the latest S (Typ007), they didn't take the 50MP bait like Pentax and Hasselblad. And you'd think that would be the system where they'd want a lot more MP to differentiate from the likes of the D800/a7R/5Ds...
As for the ZM's delivery... I'm just glad it's coming. This lens has been 'in the making' for some time, already delayed perhaps a couple years due to the a7 series and Loxia developments.
Something the linked review also shows is why I never really bonded with the CV35/1.2II. It's great centrally, but once the subject, like someone's face, is located far enough off centre, it's tough to RF focus due to field curvature, along with a tendency to look a bit smeary. The ZM's apparently much flatter plane of focus and much larger wider aperture sweet spot, should make it more predictable in day to day use.
Gary: I guess it depends on how you shoot 35mm. Stopped down landscape use, then a slower lens is probably more logical. Not sure if you still have the 35 Cron, but there will be a huge size difference. And as already discussed, with the current USD/CAD exchange rate, the ZM is no longer at such an appealing price point, scratching $3,000 after taxes... That's approaching Leica M territory.
Purple fringing is likely do to some small amount of longitudinal chromatic aberration, rather than coma.
Apparently, production lenses are finally starting to arrive at retailers, but mine is still on backorder at B&H. It's been almost 5 months, now a very slow production. I'll be disappointed if I don't get it before I go on a trip in March.
I guess what I was getting at is if you look at the shape of the purple fringing in the f/1.4 and even f/2 crops, it's not just an evenly round purple halo around the light source, but kind of peaks in the middle. Stretched a bit like you'd expect with coma. Based on experience with other fast M lenses, I'd be surprised if there isn't some degree of coma at wider apertures, but it shouldn't be anywhere near the amount seen with the a7.
Leica will likely go higher MP, but 24 is also pretty decent for general 'on the fly' use. To really extract 40-50MP, technique has to be much better controlled. As it is with 24MP, I can all to easily see how slightly lax hand held technique degrades some of my images. With it being a Leica, I kind of don't want to feel I should be shooting everything on a tripod. Sure, sometimes it's warranted, but most of the time, it just feels like it bogs down the entire process too much. At least for me. It will be interesting to see how Leica plays the MP game. So far with the latest S (Typ007), they didn't take the 50MP bait like Pentax and Hasselblad. And you'd think that would be the system where they'd want a lot more MP to differentiate from the likes of the D800/a7R/5Ds...
As for the ZM's delivery... I'm just glad it's coming. This lens has been 'in the making' for some time, already delayed perhaps a couple years due to the a7 series and Loxia developments.
Something the linked review also shows is why I never really bonded with the CV35/1.2II. It's great centrally, but once the subject, like someone's face, is located far enough off centre, it's tough to RF focus due to field curvature, along with a tendency to look a bit smeary. The ZM's apparently much flatter plane of focus and much larger wider aperture sweet spot, should make it more predictable in day to day use.
Gary: I guess it depends on how you shoot 35mm. Stopped down landscape use, then a slower lens is probably more logical. Not sure if you still have the 35 Cron, but there will be a huge size difference. And as already discussed, with the current USD/CAD exchange rate, the ZM is no longer at such an appealing price point, scratching $3,000 after taxes... That's approaching Leica M territory.
Feb 14, 2015 at 01:37 AM
p.14 #3Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
I am not sure that Leica will release a very high pixel count sensor, though it will be tough for them not to, if "everyone else" has one. The reason is that, as the pixel density increases, shooting precision needs to increase as well for any benefit to be obtained. That is all well and good for landscape, where most of the action in on tripod, much less so when a shot is handheld, which is the principal use of Leica M. Just sayin'...
Feb 14, 2015 at 04:09 AM
p.14 #4Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
In the film days, I could handhold a Leica to lower speeds than an SLR, and get sharp images. Assuming a higher megapixel Leica has a decently damped, low vibration shutter, this should be true in the digital realm too. Also higher MP will reduce the chances of moire becoming a problem in susceptible subjects compared to the 18MP and 24 MP versions. Some people will also not like the storage and processing demands that a high resolution Leica M would require. There are always trade offs in photography. I expect the company will continue to make 24MP models for a while because it is a good compromise between quality and processing for most users.
Really looking forward to the ZM 35mm/1.4 whenever it gets here.
Really looking forward to the ZM 35mm/1.4 whenever it gets here.
Feb 14, 2015 at 04:42 PM
p.14 #5Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
rscheffler wrote:
And as already discussed, with the current USD/CAD exchange rate, the ZM is no longer at such an appealing price point, scratching $3,000 after taxes... That's approaching Leica M territory.
But the exchange rate impacts the price of Leica M territory as well
.
Yeah me too really looking forward to seeing its reviews here as well as the recovering of USA/CAD because I am moving to Can in next several months. Not sure if I should buy it somewhere else before I get to Can.
F.Y.I there is a group dedicated for this lens in Flickr (not the official one from Zeiss). Not too many pictures though.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/distagon_35mm/pool/
And as already discussed, with the current USD/CAD exchange rate, the ZM is no longer at such an appealing price point, scratching $3,000 after taxes... That's approaching Leica M territory.
But the exchange rate impacts the price of Leica M territory as well
.Yeah me too really looking forward to seeing its reviews here as well as the recovering of USA/CAD because I am moving to Can in next several months. Not sure if I should buy it somewhere else before I get to Can.
F.Y.I there is a group dedicated for this lens in Flickr (not the official one from Zeiss). Not too many pictures though.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/distagon_35mm/pool/
Feb 16, 2015 at 01:03 AM
p.14 #6Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Yes, it also affects Leica pricing, though they were kind enough to offer a token $250 lens rebate.
I think I checked a couple Thai online shops and it didn't seem considerably less than getting in the US. Same with Australia. I think the Germany/EU market might be a bit of an anomaly in that after deducting VAT and figuring for the US exchange, it's ~$400 US less. I've noticed this with another German brand I've recently been researching, where domestic prices were as much as 25-40% lower than buying in the US. The problem with buying a high value item like the ZM from the EU is that shipping will probably significantly eat into that (Leica Store Munich told me that over a certain price threshold and there is extra customs export paperwork that adds to the cost), or if you happened to be in Germany and bought one, when you do the VAT refund at the airport, you only get around 10% vs. full 19% refunded. There is a way to get the full 19%, but it requires getting an export stamp upon leaving the EU and then returning to the store on the next visit with the relevant export stamped receipt and getting the full VAT refunded. A bit of a hassle. It would just be nice if Zeiss US modified the USD price to reflect at least some of the USD gains, but then of course, they'd be giving up free money. Even something like Leica's $250 rebate would narrow the gap enough to make it feel less painful.
If there is a reason to buy before you come to Canada, it's to avoid the GST/HST/provincial sales taxes, which could be as high as 15%, depending on where you end up.
Steve: I find my hand held technique with the M is not optimal and have to work at 2x the focal length shutter speed, at minimum, for reasonable results. 1/125 with a 50mm lens is not assured. 4x is better. As future MP increases, it will not look good for me. In anticipation and in light of current results, I've started tripod shopping... at least for situations where I'll likely end up with marginal shutter speeds, like for landscape work.
I think I checked a couple Thai online shops and it didn't seem considerably less than getting in the US. Same with Australia. I think the Germany/EU market might be a bit of an anomaly in that after deducting VAT and figuring for the US exchange, it's ~$400 US less. I've noticed this with another German brand I've recently been researching, where domestic prices were as much as 25-40% lower than buying in the US. The problem with buying a high value item like the ZM from the EU is that shipping will probably significantly eat into that (Leica Store Munich told me that over a certain price threshold and there is extra customs export paperwork that adds to the cost), or if you happened to be in Germany and bought one, when you do the VAT refund at the airport, you only get around 10% vs. full 19% refunded. There is a way to get the full 19%, but it requires getting an export stamp upon leaving the EU and then returning to the store on the next visit with the relevant export stamped receipt and getting the full VAT refunded. A bit of a hassle. It would just be nice if Zeiss US modified the USD price to reflect at least some of the USD gains, but then of course, they'd be giving up free money. Even something like Leica's $250 rebate would narrow the gap enough to make it feel less painful.
If there is a reason to buy before you come to Canada, it's to avoid the GST/HST/provincial sales taxes, which could be as high as 15%, depending on where you end up.
Steve: I find my hand held technique with the M is not optimal and have to work at 2x the focal length shutter speed, at minimum, for reasonable results. 1/125 with a 50mm lens is not assured. 4x is better. As future MP increases, it will not look good for me. In anticipation and in light of current results, I've started tripod shopping... at least for situations where I'll likely end up with marginal shutter speeds, like for landscape work.
Feb 16, 2015 at 02:00 AM
p.14 #7Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Many German dealers offer free shipping for orders higher than 500 euros.
Feb 16, 2015 at 03:03 AM
p.14 #8Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
SteveDK wrote:
In the film days, I could handhold a Leica to lower speeds than an SLR, and get sharp images. Assuming a higher megapixel Leica has a decently damped, low vibration shutter, this should be true in the digital realm too. Also higher MP will reduce the chances of moire becoming a problem in susceptible subjects compared to the 18MP and 24 MP versions. Some people will also not like the storage and processing demands that a high resolution Leica M would require. There are always trade offs in photography. I expect the company will continue to make 24MP models for...Show more →
I was at B & H yesterday and they didn't have the lens yet, but they expect it any day. So, it looks like we will still have to wait a bit for more reports on it.
In the film days, I could handhold a Leica to lower speeds than an SLR, and get sharp images. Assuming a higher megapixel Leica has a decently damped, low vibration shutter, this should be true in the digital realm too. Also higher MP will reduce the chances of moire becoming a problem in susceptible subjects compared to the 18MP and 24 MP versions. Some people will also not like the storage and processing demands that a high resolution Leica M would require. There are always trade offs in photography. I expect the company will continue to make 24MP models for...Show more →
I was at B & H yesterday and they didn't have the lens yet, but they expect it any day. So, it looks like we will still have to wait a bit for more reports on it.
Feb 17, 2015 at 08:47 AM
p.14 #9Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Edward has his now - stay tuned for more images....
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/920070/1143
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/920070/1143
Feb 17, 2015 at 09:22 AM
p.14 #10Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Congrats to Edward on the new lens. Please share your impressiong. i really look forward to the lens
Feb 17, 2015 at 09:28 AM
p.14 #11Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Thank you guys! I didn't get the chance to use it much yet, so please be patient. The Chinese new year celebrations are starting tomorrow so I hope to get some action.
As I mentioned on the Leica thread, it is very clear, very clean, very clinical. Almost too perfect to my taste. The contrast is already high from wide open, and it is not necessary to add any contrast in post, except for artistic reasons. It is sharp but smooth, no typical Zeiss harshness, almost like a Leica-Zeiss crossbreed. Will let you know more after I get to know it better.
As I mentioned on the Leica thread, it is very clear, very clean, very clinical. Almost too perfect to my taste. The contrast is already high from wide open, and it is not necessary to add any contrast in post, except for artistic reasons. It is sharp but smooth, no typical Zeiss harshness, almost like a Leica-Zeiss crossbreed. Will let you know more after I get to know it better.
Feb 17, 2015 at 09:46 AM
p.14 #12Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
edwardkaraa wrote:
Many German dealers offer free shipping for orders higher than 500 euros.
Hmm, I haven't looked extensively, but haven't found this. Who do you recommend? Might be good to know...
Many German dealers offer free shipping for orders higher than 500 euros.
Hmm, I haven't looked extensively, but haven't found this. Who do you recommend? Might be good to know...
Feb 17, 2015 at 12:04 PM
p.14 #13Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Well, just a heads up, the Israeli Zeiss distributor, click.ship, on eBay offers a 10% off from the US MSRP for anyone contacting him. I know at least it's valid for the ZM 35/1.4. His Otii prices are among the lowest as well. You just have to deal with the 3-year German warranty instead .
.Feb 17, 2015 at 12:08 PM
p.14 #14Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
SteveDK wrote:
In the film days, I could handhold a Leica to lower speeds than an SLR, and get sharp images. Assuming a higher megapixel Leica has a decently damped, low vibration shutter, this should be true in the digital realm too.
I believe the shutters used in the film era M's were quieter and made of cloth vs the digital M's which use metal (louder and possibly more vibration prone), so I'm not so sure that experience based on previous film M's would apply.
The solution is a first-curtain electronic shutter. Next best imo is a leaf shutter such as found in the Sony RX1.
In the film days, I could handhold a Leica to lower speeds than an SLR, and get sharp images. Assuming a higher megapixel Leica has a decently damped, low vibration shutter, this should be true in the digital realm too.
I believe the shutters used in the film era M's were quieter and made of cloth vs the digital M's which use metal (louder and possibly more vibration prone), so I'm not so sure that experience based on previous film M's would apply.
The solution is a first-curtain electronic shutter. Next best imo is a leaf shutter such as found in the Sony RX1.
Feb 17, 2015 at 12:36 PM
p.14 #15Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Perhaps the M9-P shutter isn't quite so soft as the M7 and M6 cameras I used to use down to 1/4sec with a wide lens. But I can still get good results at 1/8-1/15sec in a pinch with a 28mm or 35mm wideangle lens on my M9-P, if I use good technique and the subject's not moving. I realize other people might not have such steady hands as I do, though, or higher standards (what counts for me is printing images not obsessing over IQ at 100% pixels, though sharper is always better). Though when I'm being serious about IQ I usually use a monopod or tripod. I'm sure when Leica goes to higher resolution they could improve on the current shutter, and dampening the re-cocking noise would be nice, though at least the M9 series doesn't have the asthmatic cough and wheeze noise of the Bronica RF645!
I asked B&H to check with Zeiss on deliver today, and they wrote back that they will contact the distributer and get back to me in a few days. I'm wondering if lenses like these may be sitting in some of those waiting cargo container ships in the Port of LA, due to the labor dispute, but that's sheer speculation. Who knows if they even get shipped by cargo vessel? They might come by air freight. Oh well, I'll give them until the end of the month before exploring alternative retailers.
I asked B&H to check with Zeiss on deliver today, and they wrote back that they will contact the distributer and get back to me in a few days. I'm wondering if lenses like these may be sitting in some of those waiting cargo container ships in the Port of LA, due to the labor dispute, but that's sheer speculation. Who knows if they even get shipped by cargo vessel? They might come by air freight. Oh well, I'll give them until the end of the month before exploring alternative retailers.
Feb 17, 2015 at 03:01 PM
p.14 #16Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
Hello Edward, how are you (how is yours new lens actually )
)Feb 20, 2015 at 08:06 AM
p.14 #17Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
ltruong8 wrote:
Hello Edward, how are you (how is yours new lens actually
)Haha, I'm fine thanks
I didn't shoot with it yet because I have a shoulder injury. I promise to take out for a spin tomorrow Saturday
Feb 20, 2015 at 09:06 AM
p.14 #18Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
philip_pj wrote:
Am I the only one a little curious about the Loxias? - not to be critical of CZ whom I pretty much thank every shooting day, but when you look at the later ZE/Fs and Otuses - all brilliant, at high but fair prices, then the ZM 35/1.4, they appear to be at a different level to the ex-ZM Loxias. It looks like a play for the traditional look for M users now with a Sony body, at the cost of recent developments in design. Maybe to get more differentiation from FE lenses too..we have not seen much from them...Show more →
I think the use of the older ZM designs in the Loxias was just Zeiss repeating their own history in rolling out older designs with slight updates and new ergonomics for different mounts. I think it's a smart way to test an unproven market and to get something to market quickly while the a7's are a relatively hot commodity.
I do wonder if they got burned a bit by their investment in mirrorless with the Touits. It's just speculation based on their 2-for-1 sale last year, but I don't think they did as well as Zeiss expected them to do. Brand new designs with AF... those can't have been cheap to develop and produce. And the 50/2.8 is an engineering marvel on top of its strong all-around performance, but it had the misfortune of coming a bit late to the party. If I'm right, and that trio underperformed even with the broader audience of multiple mounts, then I really can't blame Zeiss for not throwing a great deal of their time and resources into another mirrorless format that is, for the time being, an industry one-off with a market that has no proven sustainability.
I'd say the bottom line is, if you want them to put more focus and resources on developing designs specifically for the a7's, then buy a Loxia and show them there's a market for it.
Am I the only one a little curious about the Loxias? - not to be critical of CZ whom I pretty much thank every shooting day, but when you look at the later ZE/Fs and Otuses - all brilliant, at high but fair prices, then the ZM 35/1.4, they appear to be at a different level to the ex-ZM Loxias. It looks like a play for the traditional look for M users now with a Sony body, at the cost of recent developments in design. Maybe to get more differentiation from FE lenses too..we have not seen much from them...Show more →
I think the use of the older ZM designs in the Loxias was just Zeiss repeating their own history in rolling out older designs with slight updates and new ergonomics for different mounts. I think it's a smart way to test an unproven market and to get something to market quickly while the a7's are a relatively hot commodity.
I do wonder if they got burned a bit by their investment in mirrorless with the Touits. It's just speculation based on their 2-for-1 sale last year, but I don't think they did as well as Zeiss expected them to do. Brand new designs with AF... those can't have been cheap to develop and produce. And the 50/2.8 is an engineering marvel on top of its strong all-around performance, but it had the misfortune of coming a bit late to the party. If I'm right, and that trio underperformed even with the broader audience of multiple mounts, then I really can't blame Zeiss for not throwing a great deal of their time and resources into another mirrorless format that is, for the time being, an industry one-off with a market that has no proven sustainability.
I'd say the bottom line is, if you want them to put more focus and resources on developing designs specifically for the a7's, then buy a Loxia and show them there's a market for it.
Feb 20, 2015 at 10:48 AM
p.14 #19Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
B&H checked with Zeiss at my request, and they may not get stock for 3-4 more weeks. Very disappointing but I'll probably wait, as I do want a USA warranty. It will be about 6 months from my order 'til its fulfillment, which is effing ridiculous.
Feb 20, 2015 at 10:59 AM
p.14 #20Zeiss ZM 35 1.4
freaklikeme wrote:
(...)
I'd say the bottom line is, if you want them to put more focus and resources on developing designs specifically for the a7's, then buy a Loxia and show them there's a market for it.
Well, yes. But it has to be a good lens. The Loxia 35/2.0 has an eye-hurting bokeh so no deal there, at least not for me. Not buying means Zeiss understands _something_ with the lens is wrong. Every lens, be it a Zeiss or not bought by Sony A7(x) owners show all manufacturers that there is a market.
(...)
I'd say the bottom line is, if you want them to put more focus and resources on developing designs specifically for the a7's, then buy a Loxia and show them there's a market for it.
Well, yes. But it has to be a good lens. The Loxia 35/2.0 has an eye-hurting bokeh so no deal there, at least not for me. Not buying means Zeiss understands _something_ with the lens is wrong. Every lens, be it a Zeiss or not bought by Sony A7(x) owners show all manufacturers that there is a market.
Feb 20, 2015 at 11:09 AM