Access wrote:
Yeah, I figure at least someone at Canon knows they are behind in sensors and have run the ROI (return on investment) numbers for that type of sensor research and decided not to pursue it.
Or maybe they've decided that equalling the Sony sensors is not enough, and have chosen to spend the extra time developing tech to leapfrog them....
Or perhaps (more likely at the moment) they've decided to wait until Sony goes bankrupt so they can buy the exmoor sensor tech.
15Bit wrote:
Or maybe they've decided that equalling the Sony sensors is not enough, and have chosen to spend the extra time developing tech to leapfrog them....
Or perhaps (more likely at the moment) they've decided to wait until Sony goes bankrupt so they can buy the exmoor sensor tech.
I don't think Canon can even match the Sony sensor performance. Hoping I am wrong but with no real changes to the 7DII sensor it seems they are stuck with what they have.
I have been shooting with the a7r for 7 months now and haven't even looked back...
Without claiming to be representative or anything like that, I would like to point out that I have bought no (zero, zilch, nada) stuff from Canon during the last few years. I haven't sold my Canon gear, but I haven't added to it either. The reason for that is the Canon's unwillingness to provide a sensor better than what I already have (5D2).
Instead, my photofun money went to Olympus and it looks like more of it is heading the same way soon.
KaaX wrote:
Without claiming to be representative or anything like that, I would like to point out that I have bought no (zero, zilch, nada) stuff from Canon during the last few years. I haven't sold my Canon gear, but I haven't added to it either. The reason for that is the Canon's unwillingness to provide a sensor better than what I already have (5D2).
Instead, my photofun money went to Olympus and it looks like more of it is heading the same way soon.
Same here, sold 1Ds2, 5D2, 1D3 bodies but 40D. I keep all canon lenses to play with A7R and camping out for 15stops DR 5Dx or $2K 1Dx. No improved DR no buy for me and I am holding out since 2008
Klaus Priebe wrote:
.....
I don't think Canon can even match the Sony sensor performance. Hoping I am wrong but with no real changes to the 7DII sensor it seems they are stuck with what they have.
I have been shooting with the a7r for 7 months now and haven't even looked back...
Well 7DII is not released yet so we don't know yet if it has any changes or not.
I would not doubt Canon's ability to deliver a better sensor. Canon led the sensor tech for years and it is fairly impressive what they have been able to extract out of the much older fabrication technology. I think if Canon moves to the newer fabrication technology they could beat Sony sensors. Of course no one knows if or when they will move (or if they have already moved). As others have said, it maybe that from economic standpoint it works better for them to stay with the old fab. Maybe they think that future is in newer sensor scheme like organic sensors etc and they decided to work towards that thinking that it doesn't make sense to invest in 180nm when they will be discarding it in a few years anyway. No one really knows what is going on in there so we could only speculate. In the meantime you have what you have. Every camera system has its own compromises, you just have to see which compromises work best for your specific needs and situation.
curious80 wrote:
In the meantime you have what you have.
Right. I am not saying that Canon is "bad" or "wrong" or "must do". I am just pointing out that the carrots it's dangling in front of my wallet look fairly unappetizing from my point of view.
Klaus Priebe wrote:
I don't think Canon can even match the Sony sensor performance. Hoping I am wrong but with no real changes to the 7DII sensor it seems they are stuck with what they have.
I have been shooting with the a7r for 7 months now and haven't even looked back...
This body is more targeted towards sport, wildlife or other fast action photographers. Typically, DR doesn't play that big of a role there. Try to do a fast action photography with the A7r and you will be disappointed. Sony doesn't even have the appropriate long or longish lenses to begin with .
mttran wrote:
Why not just following the Nikon steps by putting Sony Exmor sensor into their bodies
As highly vaunted as that sensor is, it has its problems. It would be nice to see at least one of the big photo companies develop a competing technology.
curious80 wrote:
I would not doubt Canon's ability to deliver a better sensor. Canon led the sensor tech for years and it is fairly impressive what they have been able to extract out of the much older fabrication technology. I think if Canon moves to the newer fabrication technology they could beat Sony sensors. Of course no one knows if or when they will move (or if they have already moved). As others have said, it maybe that from economic standpoint it works better for them to stay with the old fab. Maybe they think that future is in
Guys don't take it the wrong way, but in reality we just don't know. I personally think Canon could beat them today with their current sensor if they really cared and put their mind to it. There's often a way -- you guys seem to focus on technology and the specifics behind that, but my focus is on people and trying to be creative (good people are) and often just making the most out of whatever hardware you have or are given. So this is my own personal biases while you guys also have your own in your posts.
Look at the dual ISO feature of ML with some of the newer cameras and the improvements this has been able to make to the DR of Canon's sensors, if Canon designed their "dual pixel" sensor for this and pursued these kinds of algorithms themselves, actually supported it in their own firmware, I think we'd see a lot of progress. My guess is that this is one of those 'features' that might have originally been in the planning and possibly even built into the hardware but got left out of the firmware in favor of making a timely product release. Also the Canon model has always been to make the best advancements in the flagship 1D series and then trickle them down to the lower models as time goes on, yet the team developing the sensor maybe be doing things at its own pace (outside of camera release schedules). So even when advancements are made and possibly even included in the latest designs, I really wouldn't expect to see advancements (as supported by Canon) appear in a lower model before they first appeared in the flagship model.
Access wrote:
the Canon model has always been to make the best advancements in the flagship 1D series and then trickle them down to the lower models as time goes on, so I really wouldn't expect to see advancements (as supported by Canon) appear in a lower model before they first appeared in the flagship model.
The latest Canon advancement was the dual-pixel AF which appeared in a "lower" model (70D) and is nowhere to be seen in the 1-class bodies...
Access wrote:
Guys don't take it the wrong way, but in reality we just don't know. I personally think Canon could beat them today with their current sensor if they really cared and put their mind to it. There's often a way -- you guys seem to focus on technology and the specifics behind that, but my focus is on people and trying to be creative (good people are) and often just making the most out of whatever hardware you have or are given. So this is my own personal biases while you guys also have your own in your posts.
Look at the dual ISO feature of ML with some of the newer cameras and the improvements this has been able to make to the DR of Canon's sensors, if Canon designed their "dual pixel" sensor for this and pursued these kinds of algorithms themselves, actually supported it in their own firmware, I think we'd see a lot of progress. My guess is that this is one of those 'features' that might have originally been in the planning and possibly even built into the hardware but got left out of the firmware in favor of making a timely product release. Also the Canon model has always been to make the best advancements in the flagship 1D series and then trickle them down to the lower models as time goes on, yet the team developing the sensor maybe be doing things at its own pace (outside of camera release schedules). So even when advancements are made and possibly even included in the latest designs, I really wouldn't expect to see advancements (as supported by Canon) appear in a lower model before they first appeared in the flagship model. ...Show more →
I don't think what you said is much different from what I said. None of us really knows what is going on in there. But many of us are techies and like to discuss about this stuff and speculate. It doesn't make any practical difference. Personally right now I own and use cameras from Canon, Nikon and Sony -- I go by what is on the market today and not what will be here a couple of years from now. But we are curious beings so we like to to explore the possibilities and sometimes we learn something new in the process.
AGeoJO wrote:
This body is more targeted towards sport, wildlife or other fast action photographers. Typically, DR doesn't play that big of a role there. Try to do a fast action photography with the A7r and you will be disappointed. Sony doesn't even have the appropriate long or longish lenses to begin with .
Who cares what the A7r will do if it won't do other things as well as Canon will do for other types of photographers.
I've been shooting with Canon for 50 years and haven't looked back. So what?
I'm not a techie guy...it gives me a headache just thinking about it. But I often wonder what's the fuzz about the Canon sensor being lacking...when I can routinely get great results at ISO 10000 and above with some minimal post photoshop processing? Makes it very hard for me to imagine having to switch to another brand...
AGeoJO wrote:
This body is more targeted towards sport, wildlife or other fast action photographers. Typically, DR doesn't play that big of a role there. Try to do a fast action photography with the A7r and you will be disappointed. Sony doesn't even have the appropriate long or longish lenses to begin with .
DR plays a role with every type of photography not just landscapes. When looking at the 7DII with the same old sensor tech makes me think there is nothing better for landscape photographers in new Canon bodies that may be introduced.
The a7r may not be a good sports camera but I can put just about any lens made on the body and with over 14 stops DR its a beauty to shoot with.
Even more so when pulling out detail in shadow areas where the Canon sensors fail miserably.
Klaus Priebe wrote:
The a7r may not be a good sports camera but I can put just about any lens made on the body and with over 14 stops DR its a beauty to shoot with.
Even more so when pulling out detail in shadow areas where the Canon sensors fail miserably.
Yes. I compared my 5D MkII with the A7R directly - 5 HDR photos were needed with the 5D MkII to avoid too dark shadows and too bright highlights, whereas 1 shot from the A7R was fully sufficient to have everything in it and with some better colors, too. This is no surprise to me because there are about 4-5 years in between those cameras - quite a time for advancement in technology and sensors.
The discussion about "need" or "no need" of more DR reminds me on all kind of features in digital cameras which are discussed. The solution is simple: if you don't need DR, simply don't care about it in your taken photos. It is always better to have an option and to ignore it if not needed. But saying that current Canon sensors are still perfectly fine in comparison to competitive products out there is simply wrong. If you still like to pay the price tag for such older process generation of camera sensor, this is of course simply a personal decision. I woudn't.
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