p.8 #1 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Yes I did read that and I addressed the editing part when I said that the processing itself doesn't actually take that much time to do either with an efficient workflow (maybe you only read a sentence here and there and not the full reply?). It takes maybe a working day or two of editing to get through a wedding where I deliver 5-600. If I somehow end up with 1000 maybe it takes three. Regardless, I would imagine anyone operating as a sustainable business goes through the timetable with their clients to set expectations anyway. So if that is all understood from the beginning it shouldn't matter if you're delivering in 2 days, 2 weeks or 2 months.
amonline wrote:
Dear God. Are you reading reading these threads, or just a post here and there? I said in the other thread on the SAME topic that it's not necessarily in the culling. If one chooses to deliver *more* because they shoot *more*, wouldn't that add to their editing time? If 500 images takes 4-6 weeks, how long will 700 take? 1,000?
I guess you just don't get it, so we'll just say you win. It's obvious from your contradictory findings that I don't know anything. After nearly a decade shooting weddings for a living, I must be clueless. My opinion definitely shouldn't count.[/sarcasm]...Show more →
I may be sending my shutters to the grave early - but it isn't at the expense of my clients.
This contract was over $10k. I'm ok with however many images it took.
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If I shot the above referenced job in say... 3000 images vs 9000 images:
I would save:
$3 in hard drive space
$10 towards the cost of a shutter replacement
Culling time is only marginally higher because when I'm selecting from several examples of one moment it takes literally just a moment longer.
Basic color correction is unaffected because I don't do it myself.
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I shoot a lot because it works well for me. I'm not a groundbreaking photographer and never will be. My clients want images that feel real and highlight their relationships with family and friends. For me, it takes a lot of working of ordinary situations to find moments where you get a real sense for people's personalities.
I am indeed praying... praying for that split second where they don't look like they're going through the paces.
These moments need to be captured the first time.. sharp. To make sure this is happening I shoot in continuous focus at all times and in short bursts of 2-4 images. One part to make sure it's in focus, one part to get the expression I am looking for.
p.8 #3 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I keep a fair amount of statistics that I thought might be helpful to the conversation.
For an 8 hour wedding I average about 4000 photos between me and my second shooter. For a 10 hour wedding it's more like 5000-5500 depending on the wedding.
From what I've read about others i'm a pretty slow culler as well as editor and I cull at a rate of 1500/hr and edit at a rate of 120-140/hr.
I usually deliver 800 from an 8 hour wedding and 1000 from a 10 hour wedding. I try to get that even lower because I promise clients more like 600 and 800 respectively but i'm terrible at making decision and don't want to eliminate something they may love.
I will shoot 28 weddings this year and average turnaround time is 2.5 weeks. I have never once been told that was too slow, most times the exact opposite.
Last year over this year I have noticed that I shoot about 1000-1500 more photos at every wedding but deliver about the same amount. My work has absolutely gotten better but I obviously can't say whether that's because i'm shooting more or just getting better in general. Average net prices have also gone up over $1000 from last year.
My very first wedding was 8 hours, my wife and I shot 1500 photos and charged $500. The last wedding I just shot was 10 hours, my wife and I shot 5500 photos and charged $5000. I've also noticed that whether I shoot 3500 or 5000 photos that I end up culling down to almost the same amount, give or take 20-30 photos. There is a difference in quality, but I think I shoot more when there is more to shoot, so a 3500 photo wedding didn't have as much going on as a 5000 photo wedding, therefore the 5000 photo wedding is going to look better in the end, because there were more things I was interested in shooting. Since i'm culling down to about the same amount, the overall quality is higher.
Hope this helps the discussion!
Edit: to add a few things...I think there is a direct correlation between the number of shots I take and the number of risks I take. In my first wedding I took 0 risks because I was too scared to mess up and miss the shot. These days i'll take 10 different compositions/variations of the same thing and pick the best one or two. Before I would have taken 2 and picked the best one. I end up with a lot better results these days because it's usually the 7th or 8th variation that ends up being the best, whereas before I never would have even tried that shot. I also think there's a direct correlation between the number of shots I take and the number of IDEAS I have. In the early days I frankly just couldn't think of anything else to do. Now I have too many ideas to try in the amount of time I have so i'm constantly trying them and shooting. I also know that I can cull 1500/hr so there is very very little risk to trying something that I think might even remotely be special.
A quote from the article that is relevant to this discussion.
This is what I have been pondering from this thread.
Eric Kim, "When you are “working the scene”– don’t just put your camera to rapid fire mode and start shooting aimlessly. Rather, be very conscious about when you decide to click the shutter."
p.8 #6 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Ziffl3 wrote:
This is what I have been pondering from this thread.
Eric Kim, "When you are “working the scene”– don’t just put your camera to rapid fire mode and start shooting aimlessly. Rather, be very conscious about when you decide to click the shutter."
I thought there were a few relevant nuggets in the article, which is why I posted it. The very first contact sheet from Henri Cartier Bresson was really interesting. 16 frames of the same composition, in film, where he sat there and waited for the "decisive moment". I'm sure there were more frames of the same thing. Same thing with the Erwitt sheet. I can't say that I've ever sat and waited for a frame to develop like that.
When you watch Murray or Wirken or Kudish or any of the top documentary photographers work, it is clear that they are present, anticipating, waiting and constantly improving the image they're taking. They are not spraying and praying.
p.8 #7 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Hmm.. I wonder if this sports photographer got this shot in one click? Or do you think he sprayed and prayed? Or, is it possible that he saw a play unfolding and shot through it from start to finish and then selected the best of the series? I wonder.
p.8 #8 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Inku Yo wrote:
Hmm.. I wonder if this sports photographer got this shot in one click? Or do you think he sprayed and prayed? Or, is it possible that he saw a play unfolding and shot through it from start to finish and then selected the best of the series? I wonder.
I don't recall ANYONE saying there is no need for high FPS in sports shooting. As a matter of fact, I believe I even mentioned that it's a requirement somewhere in one of these threads.
p.8 #9 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
amonline wrote:
I don't recall ANYONE saying there is no need for high FPS in sports shooting. As a matter of fact, I believe I even mentioned that it's a requirement somewhere in one of these threads.
I don't recall saying anything about high frames per second in my previous post.
p.8 #11 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
amonline wrote:
I don't recall ANYONE saying there is no need for high FPS in sports shooting. As a matter of fact, I believe I even mentioned that it's a requirement somewhere in one of these threads.
I always used single shot for motorsports / athletics, it is far easier to time most sports and easier to track focus. My keeper rate for weddings is pathetic in comparison.
Events unfold in odd manners and lighting needs are continually changing at a wedding.
p.8 #12 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Well, it's preference, of course; but for motorsports, I would limit fps as well due to panning a pretty static subject. Motorsport shooters usually already have a framed spot in mind. They'll generally concentrate more on hitting that spot. That'd be a little different with a running person with a super busy background. Action sports, like football, are different, and usually call for a different style of shooting. (as does pretty much everything) Try to get published with the one-shot in football, and you'll probably give up trying after ten games.
p.8 #13 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
StevenMI wrote:
From what I've read about others i'm a pretty slow culler as well as editor and I cull at a rate of 1500/hr and edit at a rate of 120-140/hr.
p.8 #14 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Why not dig up an old thread?
So, after reading and thinking about this, I have been trying to shoot more to "work" certain moments and not to "settle" for one good shot where a better one might be around the corner. Over the course of 3-4 weddings, here are my take aways from it:
1) I have gotten a number of better images that I might have missed. One the whole, though, I would say they are only very slightly marginal improvements over the images I would have gotten had I shot my normal way
2) I have gotten a few pretty decent images that I might have missed altogether
3) I have not gotten anything amazing that I would have missed.
4) I have been shooting about 50% more than I did in the past
5) Because I have always culled a certain way (and have not figured out how to change it yet while still maintaining speed), I have been under-culling and have been ending up with about 25% more final images than I like to have.
6) It is taking me waaaaaaaaay too long to cull my initial cull down to 800 (which is the number I do not like to cross)
7) On the whole, I do not feel like my sets have improved that much over the increased amount of time it is taking me on the culling process
