p.2 #1 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Over the last couple of years I've halved the gear I carry. Now I'm trying to halve my shot count. Ideally 500 shots max for a day. That's a 1000 Inc.. those from my partner. My shot count grew rapidly when I moved to digital. With film I shot 300-400 all day. Yet I don't think shooting up to 1500 shots a wedding is making g me get better moments.
Plus I hate culling. Detest it. The less I have to cull the better. Clients don't care how you do what you do as long as they get their images. But they only see what you give them and don't miss what they don't see. So I want to shoot less and be sure not to miss any important moments.
p.2 #2 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
TRReichman wrote:
I think that in many cases the client does care how you do it. The experience of being photographed is oftentimes more important than the resulting photos.
I came to say basically this. People know when they are being photographed and I don't want them to feel like I'm taking a million photographs. I want them to feel like I was hardly there and still got amazing stuff. I don't want them to be annoyed at the ever-present sound of my shutter firing.
Aug 28, 2014 at 06:14 PM
glort Offline • • • • [X]
p.2 #3 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Littleguy wrote:
I think it matters greatly because it devalues the skill of the photographer.
The photographer is no longer making a photo – they are just editors and cull from thousands and thousands of photos that their cameras motion drive though.
The camera plays a bigger role than the photographer’s skill when the photographer has to overshoot to get the shot.
This in turn will drive pricing even lower because it will no longer be about the photographer anymore but how many fps and how large the buffer on the camera can is.
I completely agree because you are completely correct.
I can give my grandmother a camera set on High speed and a 64G card and tell her to point it at whatever is happening and fire off 10 shots every 5 seconds and out of the 5K shots she'll take, some will be winners. Pure dumb luck will dictate she is in the right place at the right time to get some real great shots.
Sure, 99% will be crap but that's where the spray and pray then take 8 weeks to edit everything into something passable as so many do these days HAS become the work method of so many.
I have been shooting weddings for 30 years now. The weddings I shot when I started are no different to the ones I shot last month or will shoot next month. There is still only one bride and groom, not 7. Still the same sorts of numbers in the wedding party, same sorts of numbers of guests, parents, Maybe still 2 churches and only one reception.
The ceremonys haven't changed or become longer, receptions still run the same time, still get the same time to do formals and there is still 24 hours in a day.
How come then back when I was shooting film, 350 pics was considered well and truly the normal amount ( or less) frames to shoot at a wedding but now people crap on about the inherent need to shoot thousands of pics to capture all those " Special" moments that seem to have appeared out of the blue that were never there before?
Another case of forum logic of make something up to suit your prefered agenda even if it dosen't stand up to reality or common sense.
What really makes me laugh is I shoot cheer where you have 12-20 kids on averaging fireing off in all directions as fast as they can go in 3 min or under and I and the people I work with ( and many others) shoot 70-120 Frames on average and are cursing if we get anymore than about 3 bloopers in that time.
When people try to convince me and get all stroppy that there is a nessacity to shoot thousands of pictures of people that barely more at all and throw at least 50% of them away because they aren't good enough to show the clients, I laugh. And roll my eyes.
You don't need a pic of every time the groom scratches his cods or every time the brides eyes change direction. You certainly don't need to shoot 10 frames of every significant thing to throw 9 of them away.
-IF- a shooter knows their stuff they know how things go and can anticipate a lot of the shots and be waiting to capture them. You don't need to blaze off 10 shots of the ring exchange because you should know when the moment will come when he puts it on her finger and looks into her eyes and have it done and dusted in 3 shots. Sure you might take 10 of the whole bridal party to make sure you get all the smiles and no blinks etc but those required over shoot shots like that don't justify thousands of pics being taken at the end of the day.
From what I read, a lot of shooters still only give the couple 3-600 shots anyway. IF you have to shoot 2K+ to get those, I think slowing down and taking more care would be a real worthwhile idea.
When the photographic skill of the shooter is deemed to be so low by their own actions of needeing to shoot so many pics to get a decent coverage, Of course the camera becomes more important.
The second they release a video cam at a reasponable cost you can pull 10MP stills off, You can bet shooters will be doing video and just picking the still frames to put in albums.
Of course then the couple will be waiting 12+ months for their pics while the shooters go through 8million+ frames and then edit them to their version of photographic perfection so they can be released and seen by the public.
p.2 #4 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
glort wrote:
I have been shooting weddings for 30 years now. The weddings I shot when I started are no different to the ones I shot last month or will shoot next month. There is still only one bride and groom, not 7. Still the same sorts of numbers in the wedding party, same sorts of numbers of guests, parents, Maybe still 2 churches and only one reception.
That's weird. Many of my clients have very different personalities and (unsurprisingly) can have very different reactions throughout the day. Some of the "single ladies" clamor for the bouquet, other groups just let it drop. I sure don't know what's going to happen every time because I don't assume everyone is the same.
As for "firing off in all directions as fast as you can" it's statements like these that indicate that you don't actually read (or comprehend) what others are saying. But I digress. You do your thing, I'll do mine. Your clients will be happy and so will mine. Why is this such a seemingly frustrating thing for you? Seriously all of your post are so generalizing and condescending that it makes it really difficult to actually have a discussion.
p.2 #5 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I wish that some of these people who are so negative about things would show their work so I can have a frame of reference on whether I can take them seriously or not.
On the other hand I think Todd have a valid point about whether shooting too many photos would really have a noticeable effect on the subjects being photographed. Something to think about, definitely. I also think this (how you shoot, how close you get, etc) is something that should definitely be discussed in advance.
p.2 #6 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
widjayaman wrote:
On the other hand I think Todd have a valid point about whether shooting too many photos would really have a noticeable effect on the subjects being photographed. Something to think about, definitely. I also think this (how you shoot, how close you get, etc) is something that should definitely be discussed in advance.
Yeah this is one of the only reasons against shooting high volume that I can understand. I'm actually going to try shooting silent mode on my 5D3s this weekend for the entire time. I think it would also help with people who have a reflex to stare at the camera when they hear it click. I usually turn on silent mode for the ceremony/speeches but might be nice the rest of the day to to remain as unobtrusive as possible.
p.2 #7 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I don't like the idea of shooting so much, but I'm also realizing now that I haven't seen a shot by any of these great "overshooting" photographers that convinces me they were only able to get the shot that way. Maybe some backstory on a specific image would help to prove their case, but it just seems to me that you can still be ready for the peak moment, without shooting everything leading up to it. Is it just that if they miss the peak, they're happy to have the next best shot? Only trying to understand the method and motivation behind this strategy.
p.2 #8 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
ZachOly wrote:
I overshoot, especially during the getting ready portion.
I'm at around 4k per wedding (~12 hours) now. Deliverables are around 700 images.
For the most part, I only see the upsides of overshooting. Less focus issues, no cloning of eyes in PS, more deliverables, greater likelihood of nailing that perfect look...
p.2 #9 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I personally can't imagine going over 5,000, even with a 16 hour insane day of non-stop action. But some seriously legit people regularly go over 10,000 (I think Ben Chrisman does). Whatever works. But even if you shoot 10k, I don't think anyone should ever, ever deliver more than 1000 (assuming one day, no photobooth).
p.2 #10 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
TTLKurtis wrote:
I want them to feel like I was hardly there and still got amazing stuff. I don't want them to be annoyed at the ever-present sound of my shutter firing.
This is how I feel. I probably average 1400-2000 for a 10-hour wedding, and I expect 800-1000 from my 2nd shooter. I just think the noise of the shutter continuously firing would be unnerving after awhile.
p.2 #11 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I see no point in continuing to shoot what I have already taken when there are other shots to get.
More files taken often equates to less individual shots at the end of the day.
Aug 29, 2014 at 01:32 AM
glort Offline • • • • [X]
p.2 #12 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
brett maxwell wrote:
I personally can't imagine going over 5,000, even with a 16 hour insane day of non-stop action. But some seriously legit people regularly go over 10,000 (I think Ben Chrisman does).
5 and 10 K shots are insane numbers.
For 10K shots that is more than 10 shots per minute every single minute.
And then only 10% of them are worth delivering to the client
C'mon.
No one can justify that.
No wonder people crap on about taking months to get the clients images to them.
I don't understand where these mentalities come from and how people can possibly think they are nessacary or even a good idea.
Aug 29, 2014 at 02:01 AM
glort Offline • • • • [X]
p.2 #13 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
dhp_sf wrote:
As for "firing off in all directions as fast as you can" it's statements like these that indicate that you don't actually read (or comprehend) what others are saying.
Before making yourself look any more foolish, maybe YOU should take some of your own advise and re-read what I wrote and see if YOU can comprehend it second time around?
Nothing makes a person look more foolish that to take someone to task over not being able to comprehend something than lambasting them for a mistake they made.
I can se why you are having trouble with the discussions when you are the one failing to read and comprehend what has been said correctly.
p.2 #16 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I pretty much agree with that ^.
The only thing I think about is, how does it affect the client... obtrusive? Longer delivery? Otherwise, yea, it's insane, but not my problem. It'd take me three days sun up to sun down to hit 5k. Personally, I just don't want that much in front of me later. I don't feel I miss anything, so I see no need to increase frames from my average of 50-75ish /hr.
p.2 #17 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Chris Fawkes wrote:
I see no point in continuing to shoot what I have already taken when there are other shots to get.
More files taken often equates to less individual shots at the end of the day.
This explains why I shoot more at the begining of the season ( more insecure I got the shot) but as the season passes I know I got the shot I was after so i dont need to go over again !!
p.2 #18 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
jmraso wrote:
This explains why I shoot more at the begining of the season ( more insecure I got the shot) but as the season passes I know I got the shot I was after so i dont need to go over again !!
Same. I also find the getting ready portion one of the only times during the day that you're dealing with a lot of unknowns; be it the locations (home, salon, hotel room, etc.) or how people are reacting to each other.
Of the ~4k I shoot, I can easily go through 1200-1500 before the ceremony.
p.2 #19 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I shoot until I'm happy. There's always the possibility that the perfect shot this time will be be better than the perfect shot last time and people don't stand still long enough to be sure. There ar many times when I'm glad I got that extra "duplicate" shot... maybe the expression was better - and something outside my control.
I tend to shoot in bursts of 3 (quiet mode on a 5D3, so 3 fps) and for a recent 2 day even I shot 3000 shots with 650 deliverables and 207 selected for the actual (dual) album.
I can't imagine shooting 5K shots in a single day, but the client doesn't really care. They only care if there are enough stunning shots and they don't have to wait too long for the images. If this takes extra work in post and you can charge appropraitely for the time then that's fine too - it's just a different business model.
p.2 #20 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I just think people make too many funny faces during the day to take only one or two pictures of each "moment". I hate when i get home and a good moment image is ruined because of some split second blink or wathever and i dont have just one more that would be a great moment. So i shoot a little more than needed and almost always get what i want. Its not overshooting because i dont know what to shoot, is more about not having control on the other side, regarding their facial expressions, etc. Its just one composition and one moment, but overshooting is an insurance to the variables i cannot control. Sort of. I defintly cant see a blink thru the viewfinder.
Edit:
I think it depends on the way you shoot. More posed shots tend to lead to less pictures. If you shoot completely pj you get a lot of bad faces and weird poses.
