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Archive 2014 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF

  
 
briantho
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p.2 #1 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


The ZE is noticably sharper at portrait distance it seems, but in all other aspects they seem to be very very similar.

Infinity looks identical to me, and especially the Grover shot is showing identical sharpness and identical purple fringing in the fence. The CY bokeh is slightly smoother, and has less green fringing as can be seen in the helicopter sign shot, the elevated boat(?) in the background... but yeah, it's very very close. To tell the truth, looking at these photos closely, I don't think I'd want to buy either of these lenses.

Thanks for digging out these comparison shots.



Mar 19, 2014 at 04:20 PM
CVickery
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p.2 #2 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


Interesting comparison, but I'm happy sticking with my Contax based on what I see. Thanks for the comparison shots toothwalker.


Mar 19, 2014 at 04:33 PM
redisburning
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p.2 #3 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


briantho wrote:
To tell the truth, looking at these photos closely, I don't think I'd want to buy either of these lenses.


that's an interesting perspective.

personally off the comparison pictures I'd buy the 100MP. I think it's a nice lens, for certain, and if could see having one just to get the auto-aperture (which I recently discovered is like God's Own gift to photographers using strobes).



Mar 19, 2014 at 04:49 PM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #4 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


wfrank wrote:
No doubt the ZE/ZFs are fine lenses. More than fine and even some of the best available. And I believe the overall consensus is that with regards to all measurable optics they will almost always be on par or better than the originals.


I am not sure about that. For instance, the Contax version of the P1.4/50 is better at f/1.4, and Contax version of the D2.8/21 has less lateral chromatic aberration.


The other part of the consensus here is about character involving character/isolation/colors/"3D" and other non-measurables where the CYs are on top. The word "organic" was new to me and I like that too.


Is there any 'organic' advantage of the P2/100 in my test images? I don't know what to look for.


And with regards to sharpness, all CY's I tried or own passes all thresholds of interest.


Fair enough.



Mar 19, 2014 at 05:09 PM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #5 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


briantho wrote:
Infinity looks identical to me,


Did you examine the borders?


and especially the Grover shot is showing identical sharpness and identical purple fringing in the fence.


The sharpness of the pupil looks very similar, but the YC has more purple leaking into the black of the pupil. Once you move up from Grover to the upper region of the fence, the advantage of the ZE shows in the wiremesh. The CY is not really sharp anywhere.


The CY bokeh is slightly smoother, and has less green fringing as can be seen in the helicopter sign shot, the elevated boat(?) in the background... but yeah, it's very very close.


Maybe the bokeh is a tiny bit smoother, or maybe we are just looking at more blur. The focal lengths are 99.9 mm (YC) versus 97.5 mm for the ZE. For the true apertures I found 2.00 (YC) versus 2.06 (ZE), but that was a non-scientific measurement. Another factor that may play a role is that the higher contrast of the ZE seems to extend to the blurred parts of the image.


To tell the truth, looking at these photos closely, I don't think I'd want to buy either of these lenses.


Fair enough. I consider the defocus color fringing to be the main drawback of both lenses, but prefer the ZE overall.




Mar 19, 2014 at 05:24 PM
wfrank
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p.2 #6 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


Toothwalker wrote:
I am not sure about that. For instance, the Contax version of the P1.4/50 is better at f/1.4, and Contax version of the D2.8/21 has less lateral chromatic aberration.


Wont disagree but I'd say with regards to the 50P that both are pretty soft WO at the implicit pixelpeeping level you (probably) mean. The feel of sharpness (and character) comes from the contrast with the incredibly dreamy/funky bokeh they (both, to some extent) bring. At F/1.4 both will be able to take images looking incredibly sharp, thanks to the bokeh and in-between sharpness fall off. Just dont expect them to do good corner to corner brickwall shots at that aperture.

Toothwalker wrote:
Is there any 'organic' advantage of the P2/100 in my test images? I don't know what to look for.


Nothing I can see in you shots in such lights I think. And thanks for digging them up. Love the word. I've put it into my vocabulary for the intangible things which I like about Contax. Not saying the ZE's lacks it all. Perhaps 'organic' vs 'clinical' gives a better idea to how I see it. Part is often in the colors, the rest I guess is mentioned.

Toothwalker wrote:
Fair enough.


I too like pixel level advantages. And I dont neglect the measurables but was a long time ago places like photozone.de was a decisive factor for me when choosing a lens. There is this little weird collapsible Leica 50/2 Summitar from the 40's producing an awesome bokeh swirl making the Rokkor 58/1.2 look less than the star it is in that area. It's not even fast, nor likely to be very sharp by todays standards but it's the first Leica I have on my shortlist - because of its unique character.



Mar 19, 2014 at 06:04 PM
kopuschenfred
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p.2 #7 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


Thanks for the images Toothwalker! I actually think the difference is smaller than the official MTF would indicate, except for the last portrait distance that is.

Normally I won't examine images that closely since I've long been out of pixel peeper stage But what the heck, that's part of the fun today. And if we were to "represent" a lens based on test shots, we need to be meticulous don't we?

For the portrait scene comparison, I see something a bit strange. If we see the pillar back above the sign, the CY version has a more defined shape than ZE (which, according to some reviews, ZE should have more defined-shape bokeh because of more contrast). It could be multiple possible reasons of course, but I just want to point out since other samples I see the Contax should not perform that bad at MFD.

Anyway, since my 35-70mm f/3.4 (which I almost sold after some test shots revealing not much different compared to Canon 24-70, but luckily I did't), I learned to not decide on a lens until after hundreds or even thousands of photos. For reasons that some of us find (that some Zeiss needs the right light to give magical results, as seen couple in this thread).




Mar 19, 2014 at 08:55 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #8 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


I have the 100/2 planar and prefer its bokeh over the MP because the OOF parts are more strongly rendered/ more contrast with the MP than the CY.
I also think the CY has a faster transition from focused to OOF just like my CY 35/1.4 which can render 3-d subject more often/easier. Just my $.02.
I also have R 100/2.8 APO which does not have the loCA the Zeiss 100's have.



Mar 20, 2014 at 06:33 AM
AhamB
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p.2 #9 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


briantho wrote:
Infinity looks identical to me


You must have looked only superficially. They are fairly close, but the ZE has less glowy and sharper edges everywhere. The Contax also shows some blue/yellow lateral CA which the ZE doesn't have.


@Wilhelm: A better example of "organic" vs "clinical" would be the MP 100/2 vs Apo-Sonnar 135/2, or P 50/1.4 vs MP 50/2. I think certain residual aberrations can give a qualities to images in a way similar to how the imperfections of film (grain, no hard pixel level sharpness and no aliasing) give an "organic" feel.



Mar 20, 2014 at 06:47 AM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #10 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


kopuschenfred wrote:
Thanks for the images Toothwalker! I actually think the difference is smaller than the official MTF would indicate, except for the last portrait distance that is.

Normally I won't examine images that closely since I've long been out of pixel peeper stage But what the heck, that's part of the fun today. And if we were to "represent" a lens based on test shots, we need to be meticulous don't we?


I don't consider myself to be a pixel peeper either, but when the topic of discussion calls for it, I am happy to contribute.


For the portrait scene comparison, I see something a bit strange. If we see the pillar back above the sign, the CY version has a more defined shape than ZE (which, according to some reviews, ZE should have more defined-shape bokeh because of more contrast). It could be multiple possible reasons of course, but I just want to point out since other samples I see the Contax should not perform that bad at MFD.


I noticed that too. The YC is more difficult to focus at close range, which by itself is a sign of lower contrast. The lens has no variable air spaces, and aberrations increase rapidly as the image magnification increases. This includes spherical aberration, which can break the symmetry of front/rear DOF, and field curvature, which affects the blur degree over the field. As you say, there are many possible causes.

I was just looking at other apertures from these series, which include the Contax MP2.8/100. Interesting stuff. The most striking part is the low global contrast of the P2/100, even at f/8. There is a lot of false light from the bright sky scattered around in the lens. The author of the article in the link provided by philip_pj seems to appreciate this, but I do not.

You suggest the possibility of a bad sample. Although not impossible, it is not the first thing that comes to my mind. I considered this very lens to be my best lens in the analogue era, and at one time I had two samples which performed identically (as far as one can tell from light table peeping and slide projection screen peeping). More importantly, the only valid comparison is a direct one. Images of other samples you have seen concerned a different subject in different light.








Mar 20, 2014 at 01:03 PM
Dudewithoutape
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p.2 #11 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


I would like to add in that there are some minor differences in the AE (white last aperture) and MM (green last aperture) series of the Contax line. I read in a Chinese forum (with rough Google translate) that showed the difference between AEG, MMG, and MMJ of the D35/1.4. The person took pics of the aspherical glass. They said that the AEG was hand polished, the MMG was the initial mechanization, and MMJ was the final mechanization and you can kind of see it in the pics of the reflections; AEG was the least even or "perfect", the MMG was better but showed circular lines, and the MMJ was the smoothest.

There are also minor updates between the AE and MM lines from using slightly improving the glass shape (better corner performance: 135/2.8, 25/2.8; sharper: 50/1.7 8 series serial) to better coatings. MMs tend to handle flare and retain slighhtly more contrast in backlit situations. But AEs look more "organic" and sometimes have quicker OOF transitions. It's kind of like comparing the C/Y line to the Z* line, near the end (late, late C/Y), lenses tend to perform better, especially in the clinical sense. C/Y lenses were made for about 30 years so you'd think there would be some [minor] improvements along the way. Some of my early serial lenses must be 40 years old now!

I read about the better corner performance on MF lenses and the coatings from a video forum. I never compared AE vs MM, except for the 50 1.4 and 1.7s and can at least agree with the coatings but only somewhat about sharpness (as my testing N is 1, so there's not enough sample size). In the end, I personally prefer the look of AE lenses more usually if they're available (the 35-70/3.4 is only available in MM). The differences are slight from a shooting perspective, but can be important depending on shooting style, pixel peeping, test charts, compatibility, etc.

However, MMs do allow for additional capabilities (shutter priority, I believe) on Contax bodies, but I also heard if you stimulate the notch on an AE, it miraculously works too. MMs also can be Leitax'd to Nikon, and some believe they don't hit the mirror of the cheaper Canon FFs such as 5Ds 6Ds, etc. I do want to say, I never had any issue with AEs or MMs on my 5Dc.







Mar 20, 2014 at 03:25 PM
kopuschenfred
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p.2 #12 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


The other factor I like about the Contax version is that their are more compact and typically lighter (esp. compared with ZE). From the spec the 100mm f/2 doesn't have much weight difference, but size is smaller and more discrete when taking photos in social environment.


Mar 21, 2014 at 08:41 AM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #13 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


Dudewithoutape wrote:
I would like to add in that there are some minor differences in the AE (white last aperture) and MM (green last aperture) series of the Contax line. I read in a Chinese forum (with rough Google translate) that showed the difference between AEG, MMG, and MMJ of the D35/1.4. The person took pics of the aspherical glass. They said that the AEG was hand polished, the MMG was the initial mechanization, and MMJ was the final mechanization and you can kind of see it in the pics of the reflections; AEG was the least even or "perfect", the MMG
...Show more

It would be surprising if Zeiss would not have made incremental improvements, or other changes, during 30 years of production. However, the details are a well-kept secret in Oberkochen. I regularly owned two samples of a YC lens, and differently colored reflections from the coatings, or a different color balance in the images, were not uncommon. Even if both samples were AE or both samples were MM.

I remember the one occasion where the P2/100 let me down, namely a portrait session at medium apertures with a brightly lit screen in the background. The veiling glare was really bad. I did not think much of it, because any lens will flare if the contrast is high enough, and I had not used other lenses that would have allowed a direct comparison.

I remembered the portrait session while studying the aperture series of the backlit walking path sign. This time there are other lenses for comparison, and the results do not particularly flatter the P2/100 at medium apertures. The lenses are P2.8/100, MP2/100, and P2/100, and the apertures range from maximum down to F/8. After this introduction, there is no need to point out which lens is which in the overview below. A larger version can be obtained by clicking here. The P2/100 is MM by the way.

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/planars_aperture_series_small.jpg











Mar 21, 2014 at 02:55 PM
wfrank
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p.2 #14 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


I dont recognize your CY100/2. Looking at the sign it does not look like your CY100/2 is stopping down at all but it is evident in the background that it does. And there's no contrast from the start.
Looks like another lens than mine, here's mine at F/2 all shots (MMJ BTW). Note the intense couple to the left of the couple in #1. They re-appear in #2 and #3.










Mar 21, 2014 at 04:08 PM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #15 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


wfrank wrote:
I dont recognize your CY100/2. Looking at the sign it does not look like your CY100/2 is stopping down at all but it is evident in the background that it does. And there's no contrast from the start.


Actually the contrast is noticeably better at F/2 than at F/8.


Looks like another lens than mine, here's mine at F/2 all shots (MMJ BTW). Note the intense couple to the left of the couple in #1. They re-appear in #2 and #3.


Wonderful images. It looks like a different lens than mine, because your shooting conditions are very different. Large object distances, full aperture, and no bright sky surrounding the subjects. Adverse lighting conditions can make a big difference and emphasize differences between lenses. If you can find the time, it would be helpful to shoot something similar to my scenario (subject in the shadow at 1 m distance against a very bright sky) and examine what happens to the global contrast as you stop down from F/2 to F/8. Ideally you would also throw in a MP2/100 for a direct comparison, but I presume you don't want to buy it just for that occasion.

The shots below were captured with the very same MMJ lens that does not handle the backlit sign well. If you ask me, the image quality leaves little to be desired. I would not hesitate to use the lens again for this kind of shots, if I still owned it.


http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03851.jpg

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03758.jpg

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03686.jpg

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03677.jpg

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03687.jpg

http://toothwalker.org/temp/fm/vw03678.jpg






Mar 21, 2014 at 06:43 PM
kopuschenfred
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p.2 #16 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


Those really are great great shots! Which brings up an important point: To use a lens to its greatest strength is what we strive for, and using a Zeiss may be particularly so. This 100P is at least not as controversial as the 85P

For the effects shown here, I'm willing to sacrifice auto focus and willing to invest in a used lens without warranty and in many cases, without official services.



Mar 22, 2014 at 07:23 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #17 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


AhamB wrote:
@Wilhelm: A better example of "organic" vs "clinical" would be the MP 100/2 vs Apo-Sonnar 135/2, or P 50/1.4 vs MP 50/2. I think certain residual aberrations can give a qualities to images in a way similar to how the imperfections of film (grain, no hard pixel level sharpness and no aliasing) give an "organic" feel.

Benjamin, interesting choice for "clinical" lens, as far as I see it APO-Sonnar 2/135 is the only lens this far I have shoot with, which is technically almost perfect and doesn't look "clinical". Thou not much point to argue about this as everyone understands "clinical" differently.

Samuli



Mar 23, 2014 at 01:19 AM
Kay89
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p.2 #18 · Contax 100mm f/2 vs ZE/ZF


wfrank wrote:
I would not trade the CY100/2 for the ZE version. Among a set of CY's I have one ZE; the superb 21/2.8. I could never find a CY copy at a reasonable price, which BTW, usually is more expensive than a new ZE/ZF. When using the ZE21 I always wonder what I am missing from the original. As you can tell I am biased :-)



I'm luckier than you, I guess! because I've come across the Contax 21 f2.8 once on this forum and was very close to buy it for $1400 (the lens is close to new) but I've turned away due to needing a macro lens more at that time (voigtlander 125)
only if I have the cash....



Mar 23, 2014 at 05:06 AM
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