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Archive 2013Sony A7/A7R Setup
p.14 #1Sony A7/A7R Setup
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Although my testing was not done outdoors, after shooting a little over 250 images the battery showed only 4% charge remaining, but after several more shots it indicated 12% remaining...If possible I don't empty completely this type of batteries. I had two 100% full batteries in reserve at my camera bag, so this was no issue. Also I think if I have taken them to my pocket or inside mitten they would most probably have shown >50%.
Patona branded batteries work as well as original. They have package in Amazon: 2 batteries, charger and car charger. It seems good (ordered few more of them) but there is one drawback: the charger is really slow. So for example if you travel and shoot 3 batteries during the day it's not...Show more →
I'm of the same mind as regards not fully discharging batteries. In this case however the intent was to find out how many images one battery can produce and purposely intended to completely drain the battery.
Don't understand your comment on "Patona" branded batteries slow charging, why not use the Sony charger?
Cheers
miklar wrote
Try shooting on what appears to be a discharged battery, i.e. one showing less than 10% remaining, and see how many images can still be captured...Although my testing was not done outdoors, after shooting a little over 250 images the battery showed only 4% charge remaining, but after several more shots it indicated 12% remaining...
Patona branded batteries work as well as original. They have package in Amazon: 2 batteries, charger and car charger. It seems good (ordered few more of them) but there is one drawback: the charger is really slow. So for example if you travel and shoot 3 batteries during the day it's not...Show more →
I'm of the same mind as regards not fully discharging batteries. In this case however the intent was to find out how many images one battery can produce and purposely intended to completely drain the battery.
Don't understand your comment on "Patona" branded batteries slow charging, why not use the Sony charger?
Cheers
Dec 21, 2013 at 05:41 PM
p.14 #2Sony A7/A7R Setup
Maybe Samuli hasn't got the Sony charger. Remember that the A7(r) comes without one.
I bought a Patona for using it on my NEX-7. It works well and charges faster than the original Sony ( in a Sony charger) but the capacity is barely 60-70% of the original.
With the NEX-7 that wasn't a problem, but the A7r eats the batteries twice as fast as the NEX. Therefore, two batteries ( 1 Sony+ 1 Patona) isn't enough for a day of shooting. I'm planning to purchase at least another two batteries. According to Amazon reviews, the 'Weiss' are very good. Any suggestion for a better alternative brand ?.
I bought a Patona for using it on my NEX-7. It works well and charges faster than the original Sony ( in a Sony charger) but the capacity is barely 60-70% of the original.
With the NEX-7 that wasn't a problem, but the A7r eats the batteries twice as fast as the NEX. Therefore, two batteries ( 1 Sony+ 1 Patona) isn't enough for a day of shooting. I'm planning to purchase at least another two batteries. According to Amazon reviews, the 'Weiss' are very good. Any suggestion for a better alternative brand ?.
Dec 22, 2013 at 04:32 AM
p.14 #3Sony A7/A7R Setup
Almost all third party packs sold for too-cheap prices are made from substandard cells. A pack marketed for $10 retail is actually too cheap to have been made properly, period. That means your too-cheap pack has substandard cells in it, probably from a bottom feeding tier of producer where some of these bad makers use cast off materials the premium makers won't touch for their packs.
It is surprising to see consumers of high end photographic products, folks that will think nothing of plunking down thousands on a single lens or body, cheap out when it comes to battery technology.
The only explanation I can come up with is that people don't know what they are buying. They see "battery pack" and a high price and can't reconcile that with the AA, AAA, C, D, 9V batteries they've bought over the years. Even rechargeable consumer batteries aren't *that* expensive, so the thought process goes, so some must judge seemingly expensive Lithium-ion packs as a big rip off. [1]
And consumer cells aren't that expensive... because they are made of different, intrinsically safe, chemistries. Today's NiMH consumer rechargeable cells found in grocery stores are safe. You'd be hard pressed to burn your house down (anything is possible) using these products.
Lithium ion cells / battery packs are *not intrinsically safe*. You generally can't buy bare cells as a consumer because they aren't safe when sold that way, quite unlike those AA cells you pop in your speedlight.
Lithium ion cells need to be made to high quality control standards to be safeR; need to be incorporated into a product design with over/under charge protection, dead short protection; need to be charged by smart chargers using the right algorithm and protections.
The too cheap products usually don't hit all the right notes. Something has been cut in order to deliver them at a too-cheap price point and, when talking about lithium ion power, cutting means reducing safety. And usually reducing capacity too. And cycle life. And cold weather performance (although none are great at this to begin with).
The same is true of li-ion chargers and in some respects they are an even bigger danger. There are unsafe chargers being sold on the internet to unsuspecting consumers, chargers that do not reliably terminate charging, a terribly dangerous situation for lithium ion cells. Many carry forged UL/CSA/CE markings.
A li-ion pack that is allowed to become dangerously overcharged will become unstable and may fail spectacularly when next used, or if left on a charger that never quits will eventually burst into high temperature flames as it enters thermal runaway. The combustion products are highly toxic and caustic -- quite unlike those consumer-friendly NiMH Sanyo Eneloop and similar cells we use in flashes.
Enough with the negative but to summarize the major problem I see with the cut-rate packs and chargers is that you are playing a lottery with your safety.
On to the positive, one advantage of the legit Sony chargers is both safety and convenience. The new BC-TRW has USB out plus LED indicators showing state of charge which is a lot handier than popping packs into a camera or measuring the off-load voltage. The Sony multi-format charger BC-QM1 can charge various Sony pack types (and is a little larger as a result), has the same USB out and LED indicators plus a quick charge option. Even standard charge is faster than the older Sony OEM NP-FW50 chargers. Currently I see no reason to have more than one charger for my own use, but in the past I had two of the old type. With the BC-QM1 I can fast or regular charge one of my five Sony NP-FW50 packs plus if really pushed for time, charge via the USB out another pack in-camera. Somehow I don't think I'll need to do this though.
[1] OEMs like Sony, Nikon, Canon et al *do* rip consumers off, at least in some markets. The $38.50 NP-FW50 in the U.S. is the same $79 NP-FW50 Sony sells in Canada and the same $99 N-FW50 Sony sells in Australia. Such gouging does convince consumers to shop around and of course they land across too-cheap clones and buy them instead. The big makers are actively pushing their camera buyers to pick up crap batteries and unsafe chargers.
It is surprising to see consumers of high end photographic products, folks that will think nothing of plunking down thousands on a single lens or body, cheap out when it comes to battery technology.
The only explanation I can come up with is that people don't know what they are buying. They see "battery pack" and a high price and can't reconcile that with the AA, AAA, C, D, 9V batteries they've bought over the years. Even rechargeable consumer batteries aren't *that* expensive, so the thought process goes, so some must judge seemingly expensive Lithium-ion packs as a big rip off. [1]
And consumer cells aren't that expensive... because they are made of different, intrinsically safe, chemistries. Today's NiMH consumer rechargeable cells found in grocery stores are safe. You'd be hard pressed to burn your house down (anything is possible) using these products.
Lithium ion cells / battery packs are *not intrinsically safe*. You generally can't buy bare cells as a consumer because they aren't safe when sold that way, quite unlike those AA cells you pop in your speedlight.
Lithium ion cells need to be made to high quality control standards to be safeR; need to be incorporated into a product design with over/under charge protection, dead short protection; need to be charged by smart chargers using the right algorithm and protections.
The too cheap products usually don't hit all the right notes. Something has been cut in order to deliver them at a too-cheap price point and, when talking about lithium ion power, cutting means reducing safety. And usually reducing capacity too. And cycle life. And cold weather performance (although none are great at this to begin with).
The same is true of li-ion chargers and in some respects they are an even bigger danger. There are unsafe chargers being sold on the internet to unsuspecting consumers, chargers that do not reliably terminate charging, a terribly dangerous situation for lithium ion cells. Many carry forged UL/CSA/CE markings.
A li-ion pack that is allowed to become dangerously overcharged will become unstable and may fail spectacularly when next used, or if left on a charger that never quits will eventually burst into high temperature flames as it enters thermal runaway. The combustion products are highly toxic and caustic -- quite unlike those consumer-friendly NiMH Sanyo Eneloop and similar cells we use in flashes.
Enough with the negative but to summarize the major problem I see with the cut-rate packs and chargers is that you are playing a lottery with your safety.
On to the positive, one advantage of the legit Sony chargers is both safety and convenience. The new BC-TRW has USB out plus LED indicators showing state of charge which is a lot handier than popping packs into a camera or measuring the off-load voltage. The Sony multi-format charger BC-QM1 can charge various Sony pack types (and is a little larger as a result), has the same USB out and LED indicators plus a quick charge option. Even standard charge is faster than the older Sony OEM NP-FW50 chargers. Currently I see no reason to have more than one charger for my own use, but in the past I had two of the old type. With the BC-QM1 I can fast or regular charge one of my five Sony NP-FW50 packs plus if really pushed for time, charge via the USB out another pack in-camera. Somehow I don't think I'll need to do this though.
[1] OEMs like Sony, Nikon, Canon et al *do* rip consumers off, at least in some markets. The $38.50 NP-FW50 in the U.S. is the same $79 NP-FW50 Sony sells in Canada and the same $99 N-FW50 Sony sells in Australia. Such gouging does convince consumers to shop around and of course they land across too-cheap clones and buy them instead. The big makers are actively pushing their camera buyers to pick up crap batteries and unsafe chargers.
Dec 22, 2013 at 06:16 AM
p.14 #4Sony A7/A7R Setup
michaelwatkins wrote:
[1] OEMs like Sony, Nikon, Canon et al *do* rip consumers off, at least in some markets. The $38.50 NP-FW50 in the U.S. is the same $79 NP-FW50 Sony sells in Canada and the same $99 N-FW50 Sony sells in Australia. Such gouging does convince consumers to shop around and of course they land across too-cheap clones and buy them instead. The big makers are actively pushing their camera buyers to pick up crap batteries and unsafe chargers.
Buy an NP-FW50 from Sony's UK web site and you will pay £76, about US$124.
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/nex-accessories/np-fw50
Even if you take off 20% VAT (sales tax) it is disproportionately expensive when you can buy an NEX 3N new for £280.
Dec 22, 2013 at 07:13 AM
p.14 #5Sony A7/A7R Setup
Michael, photographer needs are different; At summertime or in holidays I just could not survive with one charger like you do. For example I quite often go out shooting to wilderness for 2-3 days (definitely no electricity available), consume 8-10 batteries empty. And most likely on following day I need atleast 3-4 fully charged batteries. Numbers are based on using 5DmkII bodies with EVF (Live view + LCDVF) since 2008, and based on initial experiences A7 battery consumption is about the same or slightly larger - hard to say since it has been so cold outside.
With 5DmkII I have used about 50% Canon batteries and 50% other brand batteries. Good non-Canon batteries are better than Canon's, they have more capacity and that shows in real life as well, not just in the sticker at battery - Good ones naturally have all the protection circuits as well, and can be charger with Canon chargers. Then there have been bad ones as well. In beginning they didn't have the electronics, they are no-go and also one would need to use special charger (they blow up if connected to ordinary Canon charger). These bad ones generally didn't have same capacity and their life cycle tends to be less than 2 years.
The Patona branded pirate batteries for A7 seems the same as good ones for 5DmkII; batteries and the charger have "brains", and charger is not just putting current to battery until you unplug charger from wall. The mentioned slowness maybe was not proper comment - charging battery inside camera with Sony USB power source takes same time or longer than charging with Patona - It's slower compared to using 2.5A USB charger and charging in camera. My expectation based to Canon LP-6E is that batteries with this capacity should charge under one hour - clearly my expectation is too high.
I would not use (based on earlier learnings) or recommends batteries and chargers without protection circuits. Of course it can be always questioned is Patona or Pirate Brand X protection circuits as good as Sony's.
What comes to chargers I was under assumption Sony didn't have one. And checking now B&H, none listed as A7 accessories. The one you mention (BC-TRW) is listed in B&H, but can't find here locally. Can BC-TRW charge in car as well e.g. can you feed power to it via USB or something?
Assuming my local vendor would have had batteries or chargers in stock AND I would have purchased Sony branded stuff it would have been:
- 79,90EUR (103.93USD) for each spare battery ==> 10PCS = 799EUR (1039.3USD) for spare batteries
- Charger BC-TRW not listed here, but most likely would be over 100EUR => 4 chargers = over 400EUR (520.29USD)
==> Sony total atleast 1200EUR (1560.87USD) + maybe car charger if BC-TRW doesn't do it
Patona "2 battery + home/car charger"-bundle 49,60EUR ==> 5pcs = 250EUR (325.18USD)
So for me it's not minor saving, specially considering that Li-Ion batteries seem to maintain their capacity only 3-4 years. After that they start to go bad, and usually then I replace old batteries with new ones.
Samuli
With 5DmkII I have used about 50% Canon batteries and 50% other brand batteries. Good non-Canon batteries are better than Canon's, they have more capacity and that shows in real life as well, not just in the sticker at battery - Good ones naturally have all the protection circuits as well, and can be charger with Canon chargers. Then there have been bad ones as well. In beginning they didn't have the electronics, they are no-go and also one would need to use special charger (they blow up if connected to ordinary Canon charger). These bad ones generally didn't have same capacity and their life cycle tends to be less than 2 years.
The Patona branded pirate batteries for A7 seems the same as good ones for 5DmkII; batteries and the charger have "brains", and charger is not just putting current to battery until you unplug charger from wall. The mentioned slowness maybe was not proper comment - charging battery inside camera with Sony USB power source takes same time or longer than charging with Patona - It's slower compared to using 2.5A USB charger and charging in camera. My expectation based to Canon LP-6E is that batteries with this capacity should charge under one hour - clearly my expectation is too high.
I would not use (based on earlier learnings) or recommends batteries and chargers without protection circuits. Of course it can be always questioned is Patona or Pirate Brand X protection circuits as good as Sony's.
What comes to chargers I was under assumption Sony didn't have one. And checking now B&H, none listed as A7 accessories. The one you mention (BC-TRW) is listed in B&H, but can't find here locally. Can BC-TRW charge in car as well e.g. can you feed power to it via USB or something?
Assuming my local vendor would have had batteries or chargers in stock AND I would have purchased Sony branded stuff it would have been:
- 79,90EUR (103.93USD) for each spare battery ==> 10PCS = 799EUR (1039.3USD) for spare batteries
- Charger BC-TRW not listed here, but most likely would be over 100EUR => 4 chargers = over 400EUR (520.29USD)
==> Sony total atleast 1200EUR (1560.87USD) + maybe car charger if BC-TRW doesn't do it
Patona "2 battery + home/car charger"-bundle 49,60EUR ==> 5pcs = 250EUR (325.18USD)
So for me it's not minor saving, specially considering that Li-Ion batteries seem to maintain their capacity only 3-4 years. After that they start to go bad, and usually then I replace old batteries with new ones.
Samuli
Dec 22, 2013 at 07:35 AM
p.14 #6Sony A7/A7R Setup
michaelwatkins wrote:
Almost all third party packs sold for too-cheap prices are made from substandard cells. A pack marketed for $10 retail is actually too cheap to have been made properly, period. That means your too-cheap pack has substandard cells in it, probably from a bottom feeding tier of producer where some of these bad makers use cast off materials the premium makers won't touch for their packs.
It is surprising to see consumers of high end photographic products, folks that will think nothing of plunking down thousands on a single lens or body, cheap out when it comes to battery technology.
The only...Show more →
Michael
You are obviously quite knowledgeable as regards Li-ion batteries
Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?
A couple of times I've noticed as the battery capacity indicator goes below 20% the number of shots that can still be done are just short of all the shots taken during the first 80% - a slight exaggeration ;~)
Obviously, there is no intelligence built into these batteries and the method used to measure the remaining charge in the camera relies only on voltage? If so, the only way to get any reliable capacity information would be perform frequent deep discharges?
This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Almost all third party packs sold for too-cheap prices are made from substandard cells. A pack marketed for $10 retail is actually too cheap to have been made properly, period. That means your too-cheap pack has substandard cells in it, probably from a bottom feeding tier of producer where some of these bad makers use cast off materials the premium makers won't touch for their packs.
It is surprising to see consumers of high end photographic products, folks that will think nothing of plunking down thousands on a single lens or body, cheap out when it comes to battery technology.
The only...Show more →
Michael
You are obviously quite knowledgeable as regards Li-ion batteries
Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?
A couple of times I've noticed as the battery capacity indicator goes below 20% the number of shots that can still be done are just short of all the shots taken during the first 80% - a slight exaggeration ;~)
Obviously, there is no intelligence built into these batteries and the method used to measure the remaining charge in the camera relies only on voltage? If so, the only way to get any reliable capacity information would be perform frequent deep discharges?
This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Dec 22, 2013 at 09:28 AM
p.14 #7Sony A7/A7R Setup
Before launching into my next novel, let's put this discussion in a familiar context: if some cut-rate vendor of Zeiss 15mm lenses popped up on Amazon or eBay selling them for 1/10th the going rate elsewhere, would you trust the vendor?
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Michael, photographer needs are different; At summertime or in holidays I just could not survive with one charger like you do.
Certainly understood.
For my needs I have five packs and believe I'll be able to keep up.
Often I have two chargers for a camera but I don't think I'll need to go that route for the A7r. The BC-QM1 charges packs much faster than prior Sony chargers I've had; I've been able to charge three packs in an evening without hovering over them or paying particular attention. Plus there's always the potential to use in-camera charging as a second charger. Plus I've not even utilized the quick-charge function of the BC-QM1. A solid unit, the QM1 probably will be useful for a good many photographers.
With 5DmkII I have used about 50% Canon batteries and 50% other brand batteries. Good non-Canon batteries are better than Canon's, they have more capacity and that shows in real life as well, not just in the sticker at battery
On capacity, generally inflated claims of additional capacity are just that - inflated. The only way one can be assured the pack is delivering more *usable* capacity is to throw the pack on a cell/battery analysis workstation and run it through a number of cycles at typical in-use loads.
The printed capacity on a pack, if the vendor is playing by the rules, is measured at a 0.2C (1080 * 0.2 = 216 mAh) load placed on the cell. This load is not necessarily representative of the actual operating conditions of the camera; in fact I'd expect the A7r puts a much higher load on the cells than 0.2C, but the industry standard capacity measurement gives an inkling of available capacity. The discharge curve will vary by cell maker and chemistry - better cells will deliver current longer while keeping the available voltage above the maker's cut off level, and do so at working loads.
The best cell tech definitely is not available from every run of the mill plant out there. Usually one finds the inferior cells don't deliver a competitive discharge curve at load. At best, there may be some cut rate makers that produce a decent product that offers similar or slightly reduced capacity, hopefully built in a safe manner. Lottery time.
If you see claims of significant (more than 100 mAh) additional capacity on a cut-rate pack compared to a Sony OEM pack, you can bet the claim is fraudulent. It's an issue of chemistry and physics, there's only so much capacity you can shove into the cell with a given volume and camera packs are definitely volume constrained.
Sony's NP-FW50 packs are made in Japan using Japanese cells. Between Panasonic, their subsidiary Sanyo, and Sony, these makers produce worlds very best lithium-ion cells. There are but a small handful of top-notch makers in China and an ocean of lesser makers ranging from ok to completely awful. The problem with most of the third party photographic battery pack suppliers is you've no idea which suppliers they use, even if the label on the case remains constant, you've no guarantee that the innards remain the same. Cut rate makers change sources depending on which way the wind blows, all in the pursuit of the absolute lowest cost.
I'll take the best-of-the-best Japanese cells, assembled in China or other countries (Nikon uses Japanese cells, assembles the packs elsewhere), or in Japan (yay), any day. The big makers *do* issue recalls from time to time because even they have issues.
The small makers never issue recalls. Are these companies immune from issues? Of course not, and most of them run plants that are no where near the spec of the big makers, using inferior materials. It only stands to reason that the cut-rate packs would have more issues, not less.
When Nikon had problems with the EN-EL15 packs (D800 and others) the company issued a recall notice and word quickly spread. They replaced packs. Their packs have trackable batch numbers so they can do this. The too-cheap packs invariably have no batch or serial numbers because their makers are too cheap to invest in this area, and certainly are too-cheap to pay for a world wide recall of their product. Their business plan instead revolves around disappearing and reappearing the next day with a new name.
The Patona branded pirate batteries for A7 seems the same as good ones for 5DmkII; batteries and the charger have "brains", and charger is not just putting current to battery until you unplug charger from wall. The mentioned slowness maybe was not proper comment - charging battery inside camera with Sony USB power source takes same time or longer than charging with Patona - It's slower compared to using 2.5A USB charger and charging in camera.
My expectation based to Canon LP-6E is that batteries with this capacity should charge under one hour - clearly my expectation is too high.
You can't extrapolate charging times that way.
The standard charging profile for most li-ion cells, regardless of capacity, is typically 3+ hours. Chargers are normally designed with output current to target this sort of time frame. Not all cells can handle accelerated charging - I trust Sony has put the right tech into theirs to support this. Generally the smaller capacity cells need to be charged at under a 1C rate; 0.7C is common, implying max charge current during the charging Constant Current phase of ~ 0.75A.
Some cells *can* take higher rates of charge, safely. Changes that a cut-rate pack has these cells? Very low.
The cut rate cells are in my opinion not safe to charge at accelerated rates. Charging is the most dangerous phase of use. More fires occur as a result of charging related incidents than any other incident type. Bad cell has an internal short or bad charger are just two of the possible causes. Putting more current to a cell not capable of handling safely an accelerated charge is just not wise. At minimum doing so may decrease the available cycles from the pack.
I would not use (based on earlier learnings) or recommends batteries and chargers without protection circuits. Of course it can be always questioned is Patona or Pirate Brand X protection circuits as good as Sony's.
Without opening up some of the cut-rate packs for an informed examination we don't even know for certain if a protection circuit is employed. In other side of my life I've seen stuff that makes my blood run cold (bad cell/pack implementations, chargers that are actively dangerous if used as directed). Nothing surprises me... forged packs, forged safety certifications, dangerous tech in the pursuit of a dollar - the bad makers operate in a wild-west environment with very little to zero regulatory oversight or pressure from consumers to do a better job.
What comes to chargers I was under assumption Sony didn't have one. And checking now B&H, none listed as A7 accessories. The one you mention (BC-TRW) is listed in B&H, but can't find here locally. Can BC-TRW charge in car as well e.g. can you feed power to it via USB or something?
No, it's a wall wart charger IIRC. I have an inverter in my vehicle though.
The BC-QM1 is almost certainly the right charger for you given your stated needs although I should really check to see if it has higher output than the TRW or if the two are the same and the only difference is the QM1 supports multiple packs. I bought my QM1 with my camera and I'm impressed... I never find myself wishing the charger would hurry up.
Assuming my local vendor would have had batteries or chargers in stock AND I would have purchased Sony branded stuff it would have been:
- 79,90EUR (103.93USD) for each spare battery ==> 10PCS = 799EUR (1039.3USD) for spare batteries
- Charger BC-TRW not listed here, but most likely would be over 100EUR => 4 chargers = over 400EUR (520.29USD)
==> Sony total atleast 1200EUR (1560.87USD) + maybe car charger if BC-TRW doesn't do it
Patona "2 battery + home/car charger"-bundle 49,60EUR ==> 5pcs = 250EUR (325.18USD)
I'm sorry but I do not buy the economic argument when we are all talking about multi-kilobuck cameras and lenses here.
I've no idea who makes "Patona", what cell suppliers they use, if they just buy packs from one of the cut-rate makers and slap their own label on them (very common) or even if they will be in business next year. Do they have safety certification imprinted upon them and if so is it legitimate or is it forged?
Lithium ion tech is not intrinsically safe. It has to be made "safer not safe" by well intended manufacturing companies. The cut-rate industry players are not full of good intentions.
I spend up to get both good performance and increased margin of safety. That is worth a good deal to me and as a family man I cannot think otherwise. I also happen to volunteer with our fire department here as a victim support worker and after attending many dozens of fire scenes (only one lithium ion fire) over the years my risk threshold is naturally a little lower than most.
Li-Ion batteries seem to maintain their capacity only 3-4 years. After that they start to go bad, and usually then I replace old batteries with new ones.
3 - 4 years sounds typical, depending on how often they are charged-discharged and how they are stored when not in use. Once produced and charged, the li-ion cell life starts to tick on downward.
Good cells will tend to deliver longer cycle life. Treating them will can double the cycle life you can extract.
When you aren't depending on all 8 of your packs, consider leaving the unused packs in a partial state of charge (30 - 50%); they will last much longer. If you use the QM1 notification that the packs are *almost* fully charged and remove the pack then (I'll test to see how much capacity they have at this point but am guessing 80 - 90%) you could double the cycle life. Of course that implies micromanaging the packs and I don't even do that.
Currently I only need two or three packs in service so I've discharged my other two to 30% for longer term storage. That's worth taking the extra time to do. Never store fully charged packs for extended periods of time unless one truly does need to be ready to go with all packs running at a moments notice. In that case the cost of packs is probably not of any consequence.
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Michael, photographer needs are different; At summertime or in holidays I just could not survive with one charger like you do.
Certainly understood.
For my needs I have five packs and believe I'll be able to keep up.
Often I have two chargers for a camera but I don't think I'll need to go that route for the A7r. The BC-QM1 charges packs much faster than prior Sony chargers I've had; I've been able to charge three packs in an evening without hovering over them or paying particular attention. Plus there's always the potential to use in-camera charging as a second charger. Plus I've not even utilized the quick-charge function of the BC-QM1. A solid unit, the QM1 probably will be useful for a good many photographers.
With 5DmkII I have used about 50% Canon batteries and 50% other brand batteries. Good non-Canon batteries are better than Canon's, they have more capacity and that shows in real life as well, not just in the sticker at battery
On capacity, generally inflated claims of additional capacity are just that - inflated. The only way one can be assured the pack is delivering more *usable* capacity is to throw the pack on a cell/battery analysis workstation and run it through a number of cycles at typical in-use loads.
The printed capacity on a pack, if the vendor is playing by the rules, is measured at a 0.2C (1080 * 0.2 = 216 mAh) load placed on the cell. This load is not necessarily representative of the actual operating conditions of the camera; in fact I'd expect the A7r puts a much higher load on the cells than 0.2C, but the industry standard capacity measurement gives an inkling of available capacity. The discharge curve will vary by cell maker and chemistry - better cells will deliver current longer while keeping the available voltage above the maker's cut off level, and do so at working loads.
The best cell tech definitely is not available from every run of the mill plant out there. Usually one finds the inferior cells don't deliver a competitive discharge curve at load. At best, there may be some cut rate makers that produce a decent product that offers similar or slightly reduced capacity, hopefully built in a safe manner. Lottery time.
If you see claims of significant (more than 100 mAh) additional capacity on a cut-rate pack compared to a Sony OEM pack, you can bet the claim is fraudulent. It's an issue of chemistry and physics, there's only so much capacity you can shove into the cell with a given volume and camera packs are definitely volume constrained.
Sony's NP-FW50 packs are made in Japan using Japanese cells. Between Panasonic, their subsidiary Sanyo, and Sony, these makers produce worlds very best lithium-ion cells. There are but a small handful of top-notch makers in China and an ocean of lesser makers ranging from ok to completely awful. The problem with most of the third party photographic battery pack suppliers is you've no idea which suppliers they use, even if the label on the case remains constant, you've no guarantee that the innards remain the same. Cut rate makers change sources depending on which way the wind blows, all in the pursuit of the absolute lowest cost.
I'll take the best-of-the-best Japanese cells, assembled in China or other countries (Nikon uses Japanese cells, assembles the packs elsewhere), or in Japan (yay), any day. The big makers *do* issue recalls from time to time because even they have issues.
The small makers never issue recalls. Are these companies immune from issues? Of course not, and most of them run plants that are no where near the spec of the big makers, using inferior materials. It only stands to reason that the cut-rate packs would have more issues, not less.
When Nikon had problems with the EN-EL15 packs (D800 and others) the company issued a recall notice and word quickly spread. They replaced packs. Their packs have trackable batch numbers so they can do this. The too-cheap packs invariably have no batch or serial numbers because their makers are too cheap to invest in this area, and certainly are too-cheap to pay for a world wide recall of their product. Their business plan instead revolves around disappearing and reappearing the next day with a new name.
The Patona branded pirate batteries for A7 seems the same as good ones for 5DmkII; batteries and the charger have "brains", and charger is not just putting current to battery until you unplug charger from wall. The mentioned slowness maybe was not proper comment - charging battery inside camera with Sony USB power source takes same time or longer than charging with Patona - It's slower compared to using 2.5A USB charger and charging in camera.
My expectation based to Canon LP-6E is that batteries with this capacity should charge under one hour - clearly my expectation is too high.
You can't extrapolate charging times that way.
The standard charging profile for most li-ion cells, regardless of capacity, is typically 3+ hours. Chargers are normally designed with output current to target this sort of time frame. Not all cells can handle accelerated charging - I trust Sony has put the right tech into theirs to support this. Generally the smaller capacity cells need to be charged at under a 1C rate; 0.7C is common, implying max charge current during the charging Constant Current phase of ~ 0.75A.
Some cells *can* take higher rates of charge, safely. Changes that a cut-rate pack has these cells? Very low.
The cut rate cells are in my opinion not safe to charge at accelerated rates. Charging is the most dangerous phase of use. More fires occur as a result of charging related incidents than any other incident type. Bad cell has an internal short or bad charger are just two of the possible causes. Putting more current to a cell not capable of handling safely an accelerated charge is just not wise. At minimum doing so may decrease the available cycles from the pack.
I would not use (based on earlier learnings) or recommends batteries and chargers without protection circuits. Of course it can be always questioned is Patona or Pirate Brand X protection circuits as good as Sony's.
Without opening up some of the cut-rate packs for an informed examination we don't even know for certain if a protection circuit is employed. In other side of my life I've seen stuff that makes my blood run cold (bad cell/pack implementations, chargers that are actively dangerous if used as directed). Nothing surprises me... forged packs, forged safety certifications, dangerous tech in the pursuit of a dollar - the bad makers operate in a wild-west environment with very little to zero regulatory oversight or pressure from consumers to do a better job.
What comes to chargers I was under assumption Sony didn't have one. And checking now B&H, none listed as A7 accessories. The one you mention (BC-TRW) is listed in B&H, but can't find here locally. Can BC-TRW charge in car as well e.g. can you feed power to it via USB or something?
No, it's a wall wart charger IIRC. I have an inverter in my vehicle though.
The BC-QM1 is almost certainly the right charger for you given your stated needs although I should really check to see if it has higher output than the TRW or if the two are the same and the only difference is the QM1 supports multiple packs. I bought my QM1 with my camera and I'm impressed... I never find myself wishing the charger would hurry up.
Assuming my local vendor would have had batteries or chargers in stock AND I would have purchased Sony branded stuff it would have been:
- 79,90EUR (103.93USD) for each spare battery ==> 10PCS = 799EUR (1039.3USD) for spare batteries
- Charger BC-TRW not listed here, but most likely would be over 100EUR => 4 chargers = over 400EUR (520.29USD)
==> Sony total atleast 1200EUR (1560.87USD) + maybe car charger if BC-TRW doesn't do it
Patona "2 battery + home/car charger"-bundle 49,60EUR ==> 5pcs = 250EUR (325.18USD)
I'm sorry but I do not buy the economic argument when we are all talking about multi-kilobuck cameras and lenses here.
I've no idea who makes "Patona", what cell suppliers they use, if they just buy packs from one of the cut-rate makers and slap their own label on them (very common) or even if they will be in business next year. Do they have safety certification imprinted upon them and if so is it legitimate or is it forged?
Lithium ion tech is not intrinsically safe. It has to be made "safer not safe" by well intended manufacturing companies. The cut-rate industry players are not full of good intentions.
I spend up to get both good performance and increased margin of safety. That is worth a good deal to me and as a family man I cannot think otherwise. I also happen to volunteer with our fire department here as a victim support worker and after attending many dozens of fire scenes (only one lithium ion fire) over the years my risk threshold is naturally a little lower than most.
Li-Ion batteries seem to maintain their capacity only 3-4 years. After that they start to go bad, and usually then I replace old batteries with new ones.
3 - 4 years sounds typical, depending on how often they are charged-discharged and how they are stored when not in use. Once produced and charged, the li-ion cell life starts to tick on downward.
Good cells will tend to deliver longer cycle life. Treating them will can double the cycle life you can extract.
When you aren't depending on all 8 of your packs, consider leaving the unused packs in a partial state of charge (30 - 50%); they will last much longer. If you use the QM1 notification that the packs are *almost* fully charged and remove the pack then (I'll test to see how much capacity they have at this point but am guessing 80 - 90%) you could double the cycle life. Of course that implies micromanaging the packs and I don't even do that.
Currently I only need two or three packs in service so I've discharged my other two to 30% for longer term storage. That's worth taking the extra time to do. Never store fully charged packs for extended periods of time unless one truly does need to be ready to go with all packs running at a moments notice. In that case the cost of packs is probably not of any consequence.
Dec 22, 2013 at 02:20 PM
p.14 #8Sony A7/A7R Setup
miklar wrote:
You are obviously quite knowledgeable as regards Li-ion batteries
Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?
(I have had to develop a solid base of li-ion knowledge for another aspect of my life. It comes in handy at times.)
No, lithium-ion tech is not like the ages old Nickel-Cadmium (memory issues) or like today's really good Nickel Metal Hydride (Sanyo Eneloop as an example). Incidentally NiMH cells *do* appreciate a good deep discharge once in a while followed by a slow 0.1C 16 hour charge. We have a large fleet of AA and AAA cells here (almost 200 in total) for everything from photography to cycling and I keep them in good shape with a MAHA C-9000 charger. Its various program modes make normal charging and cell-health operations painless. I don't like the La Crosse product or their customer service. http://www.mahaenergy.com/mh-c9000/
Li-ion cells are shipped (by the good makers) as new with very little charge as this prolongs life. Just charge them and go.
A couple of times I've noticed as the battery capacity indicator goes below 20% the number of shots that can still be done are just short of all the shots taken during the first 80% - a slight exaggeration ;~) Obviously, there is no intelligence built into these batteries and the method used to measure the remaining charge in the camera relies only on voltage?
The remaining capacity measure is rough and is indeed obtained by measuring the current voltage per cell and applying that value to a lookup table; Sony's "infolithium" might have a bit more smarts than that but I doubt it. The state of charge off-load measurement is how the li-ion industry does it and is made possible due to the nature of the chemistry; the same trick is not so useful with NiMH chemistry.
Really good cells will have a more level discharge curve until near the very end where voltage drops off quickly and the camera forces shut down. That right hand shoulder might well support quite a few shots.
If so, the only way to get any reliable capacity information would be perform frequent deep discharges?
This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Does the camera know about packs? It might. I've no direct evidence there is an ID in the Sony pack (not something I've seen anywhere else) but when starting up the camera after a battery change I sense it takes longer; it may be putting the pack on load for a few seconds to determine where along the discharge curve the pack might be in order to give a more reliable estimate of the remaining capacity. Maybe.
Or... it might just be measuring off-load voltage like most do.
Just use them and don't worry about it. They don't need to be deep discharged. The best advice I have regarding charging is not to leave them fully charged for months on end if you aren't using them.
You are obviously quite knowledgeable as regards Li-ion batteries
Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?
(I have had to develop a solid base of li-ion knowledge for another aspect of my life. It comes in handy at times.)
No, lithium-ion tech is not like the ages old Nickel-Cadmium (memory issues) or like today's really good Nickel Metal Hydride (Sanyo Eneloop as an example). Incidentally NiMH cells *do* appreciate a good deep discharge once in a while followed by a slow 0.1C 16 hour charge. We have a large fleet of AA and AAA cells here (almost 200 in total) for everything from photography to cycling and I keep them in good shape with a MAHA C-9000 charger. Its various program modes make normal charging and cell-health operations painless. I don't like the La Crosse product or their customer service. http://www.mahaenergy.com/mh-c9000/
Li-ion cells are shipped (by the good makers) as new with very little charge as this prolongs life. Just charge them and go.
A couple of times I've noticed as the battery capacity indicator goes below 20% the number of shots that can still be done are just short of all the shots taken during the first 80% - a slight exaggeration ;~) Obviously, there is no intelligence built into these batteries and the method used to measure the remaining charge in the camera relies only on voltage?
The remaining capacity measure is rough and is indeed obtained by measuring the current voltage per cell and applying that value to a lookup table; Sony's "infolithium" might have a bit more smarts than that but I doubt it. The state of charge off-load measurement is how the li-ion industry does it and is made possible due to the nature of the chemistry; the same trick is not so useful with NiMH chemistry.
Really good cells will have a more level discharge curve until near the very end where voltage drops off quickly and the camera forces shut down. That right hand shoulder might well support quite a few shots.
If so, the only way to get any reliable capacity information would be perform frequent deep discharges?
This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Does the camera know about packs? It might. I've no direct evidence there is an ID in the Sony pack (not something I've seen anywhere else) but when starting up the camera after a battery change I sense it takes longer; it may be putting the pack on load for a few seconds to determine where along the discharge curve the pack might be in order to give a more reliable estimate of the remaining capacity. Maybe.
Or... it might just be measuring off-load voltage like most do.
Just use them and don't worry about it. They don't need to be deep discharged. The best advice I have regarding charging is not to leave them fully charged for months on end if you aren't using them.
Dec 22, 2013 at 02:39 PM
p.14 #9Sony A7/A7R Setup
michaelwatkins wrote:
Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?(I have had to develop a solid base of li-ion knowledge for another aspect of my life. It comes in handy at times.)
No, lithium-ion tech is not like the ages old Nickel-Cadmium (memory issues) or like today's really good Nickel Metal Hydride (Sanyo Eneloop as an example). Incidentally NiMH cells *do* appreciate a good deep discharge once in a while followed by a slow 0.1C 16 hour charge. We have a large fleet of AA and AAA cells here (almost 200 in total) for everything from photography to cycling and I keep them in good shape with a MAHA C-9000...Show more →
This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Thank you Michael
What you state makes complete sense. BTW I'm in complete agreement with staying away from cheap knock-offs. The only time I used a couple were sent with Atomos' products and they quickly found the toxic waste disposal bin.
Also, your last point is one I learned the hard way.
Cheers
miklar wrote
You are obviously quite knowledgeable as regards Li-ion batteries Could you answer one question that has been nagging at me regarding the battery capacity with the A7r; is it necessary to perform a deep discharge and recharge to get the most out of these batteries?
No, lithium-ion tech is not like the ages old Nickel-Cadmium (memory issues) or like today's really good Nickel Metal Hydride (Sanyo Eneloop as an example). Incidentally NiMH cells *do* appreciate a good deep discharge once in a while followed by a slow 0.1C 16 hour charge. We have a large fleet of AA and AAA cells here (almost 200 in total) for everything from photography to cycling and I keep them in good shape with a MAHA C-9000...Show more →
Earlier quote
A couple of times I've noticed as the battery capacity indicator goes below 20% the number of shots that can still be done are just short of all the shots taken during the first 80% - a slight exaggeration ;~) Obviously, there is no intelligence built into these batteries and the method used to measure the remaining charge in the camera relies only on voltage?Earlier quote
If so, the only way to get any reliable capacity information would be perform frequent deep discharges?This problem may well be exacerbated by frequent battery swapping when the batteries are not fully discharged.
Thank you Michael
What you state makes complete sense. BTW I'm in complete agreement with staying away from cheap knock-offs. The only time I used a couple were sent with Atomos' products and they quickly found the toxic waste disposal bin.
Also, your last point is one I learned the hard way.
Cheers
Dec 22, 2013 at 07:27 PM
p.14 #10Sony A7/A7R Setup
Apologies for resurrecting this post...
I'm currently using my a7r mostly in manual mode. Unfortunately when you change either the aperture or the shutter speed, the histogram is briefly blocked as a giant new display pops up over the screen showing a scroll wheel of the change you're making.
Does anyone know a way to turn off this extra display pop-up, so that I can keep seeing the histogram and the image display, and only see the aperture and shutter speed change at the very bottom of the screen?
Thanks for any leads.
I'm currently using my a7r mostly in manual mode. Unfortunately when you change either the aperture or the shutter speed, the histogram is briefly blocked as a giant new display pops up over the screen showing a scroll wheel of the change you're making.
Does anyone know a way to turn off this extra display pop-up, so that I can keep seeing the histogram and the image display, and only see the aperture and shutter speed change at the very bottom of the screen?
Thanks for any leads.
Jan 14, 2014 at 08:41 PM
p.14 #11Sony A7/A7R Setup
mhespenheide wrote:
Apologies for resurrecting this post...
I'm currently using my a7r mostly in manual mode. Unfortunately when you change either the aperture or the shutter speed, the histogram is briefly blocked as a giant new display pops up over the screen showing a scroll wheel of the change you're making.
Does anyone know a way to turn off this extra display pop-up, so that I can keep seeing the histogram and the image display, and only see the aperture and shutter speed change at the very bottom of the screen?
Thanks for any leads.
You are in luck, this can be done. Go to the Gear menu, page 2, Exposure Set. Guide and turn it to off. Now you won't get that scrolling field for all those item changes.
Apologies for resurrecting this post...
I'm currently using my a7r mostly in manual mode. Unfortunately when you change either the aperture or the shutter speed, the histogram is briefly blocked as a giant new display pops up over the screen showing a scroll wheel of the change you're making.
Does anyone know a way to turn off this extra display pop-up, so that I can keep seeing the histogram and the image display, and only see the aperture and shutter speed change at the very bottom of the screen?
Thanks for any leads.
You are in luck, this can be done. Go to the Gear menu, page 2, Exposure Set. Guide and turn it to off. Now you won't get that scrolling field for all those item changes.
Jan 14, 2014 at 10:35 PM
p.14 #12Sony A7/A7R Setup
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you.
Jan 16, 2014 at 12:49 AM
p.14 #13Sony A7/A7R Setup
Now when the cameras been out for a while I put this question forward again.
The WIFI transfer of images (RAW) is dreadfully slow. I've set up according to book and transfer the images to a laptop. I have a speedy net/Wifi. But each image takes around 45 sec's which means that say a some 70-90 images will take an hour to transfer. I've reinstalled the software twice and it does not help.
Anyone else having this problem, or ideas how to solve it?
The WIFI transfer of images (RAW) is dreadfully slow. I've set up according to book and transfer the images to a laptop. I have a speedy net/Wifi. But each image takes around 45 sec's which means that say a some 70-90 images will take an hour to transfer. I've reinstalled the software twice and it does not help.
Anyone else having this problem, or ideas how to solve it?
Jan 16, 2014 at 03:51 PM
p.14 #14Sony A7/A7R Setup
I've been transferring files to my laptop with my Canon, Nikon and now A7r for years and really have only had luck using the USB cable. I feel that the technology is not up to transferring raw files yet. I usually transfer the raw files by either tethering or just plugging a card reader into the laptop. I wish Sony had developed a more robust Wi-Fi interface.
Jan 16, 2014 at 07:13 PM
p.14 #15Sony A7/A7R Setup
Does anyone have a good idea about how I could get a hotshoe mount on the metabones adaptor?
There are generic c-shape flash brackets but they are far too big...
I want to support a monitor off the adaptor.
Any help gratefully received?
I am starting to think about3d printing something.
There are generic c-shape flash brackets but they are far too big...
I want to support a monitor off the adaptor.
Any help gratefully received?
I am starting to think about3d printing something.
Jan 24, 2014 at 02:40 PM
p.14 #16Sony A7/A7R Setup
Hotshot or coldshoe? Couldn't you use some kind of flash L-bracket instead?
Jan 24, 2014 at 03:12 PM
p.14 #17Sony A7/A7R Setup
Hi all. Just learning to use A7r and got couple questions, can't seem to find the answer in (sorry, but it is horrible) manual.
1) is there any way to change ISO in full increments? I know, if I assign ISO to any C button and use back wheel I can do it, but I like to achieve same with scrolling wheel
2) as I use MF lenses, I love the magnification option in EVF. However, as soon as I move finger close to shutter, it goes back to full screen mode. Is there any way to stop such action?
Thank you for this thread, already learned a lot and coming from other brand, is a great help to me
1) is there any way to change ISO in full increments? I know, if I assign ISO to any C button and use back wheel I can do it, but I like to achieve same with scrolling wheel
2) as I use MF lenses, I love the magnification option in EVF. However, as soon as I move finger close to shutter, it goes back to full screen mode. Is there any way to stop such action?
Thank you for this thread, already learned a lot and coming from other brand, is a great help to me
Feb 08, 2014 at 08:42 PM
p.14 #18Sony A7/A7R Setup
I import and do post processing on LR5 then export to jpeg...earlier in this thread some one mentioned that the Sony converter is better than PS ACR...any comments on how LR5 works compared to the Sony image converter?
Feb 09, 2014 at 08:42 AM
p.14 #19Sony A7/A7R Setup
tonyniev wrote:
I import and do post processing on LR5 then export to jpeg...earlier in this thread some one mentioned that the Sony converter is better than PS ACR...any comments on how LR5 works compared to the Sony image converter?
Regarding the interface and usage, the Sony Converter is dog SLOW on my mac mini, where Lightroom 5 flies in comparison. I wouldn't want to use the sony app for more than 5 images or so.
I shoot raw + jpeg, and for most images I haven't really needed to do a lot to the raw, the jpeg is fine for me, but frm what I read online most people hate the sony jpegs. Your mileage may vary.
I import and do post processing on LR5 then export to jpeg...earlier in this thread some one mentioned that the Sony converter is better than PS ACR...any comments on how LR5 works compared to the Sony image converter?
Regarding the interface and usage, the Sony Converter is dog SLOW on my mac mini, where Lightroom 5 flies in comparison. I wouldn't want to use the sony app for more than 5 images or so.
I shoot raw + jpeg, and for most images I haven't really needed to do a lot to the raw, the jpeg is fine for me, but frm what I read online most people hate the sony jpegs. Your mileage may vary.
Feb 09, 2014 at 10:53 AM
p.14 #20Sony A7/A7R Setup
Using MF on FE kenses..the image magnifies and then when you push the shutter, the camera again tries to AF??
How do you retain the focus you manually set?
How do you retain the focus you manually set?
Feb 22, 2014 at 12:00 PM